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Russian army under equipped?


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4 minutes ago, Peter Cairns said:

As everyone else has gone loony toons I might as well join in.

Oddly enough round about the time that Crimea was annexed I was heavily involved in an Independence referendum here in Scotland, the procedure here was;

The SNP put calling a Referendum in the next Parliament in it's election Manifesto.

The SNP won a majority in a proportional Parliament in an open multi party system declared fair and free by a selection of UN, EU, Council of Europe and Independent NGO's

The SNP formed the devolved Scottish Government within the UK and announced it would call for the UK government to allow a Referendum on Independence and put this proposal to a vote in the Scottish Parliament where it was passed.

The UK Government that still controls Elections, but which opposed both Independence and a Referendum, accepted the SNP had a democratic mandate and legislated to allow a Referendum it didn't want.

There was an agreed Referendum date and a two year period to allow preparation and democratic debate.

The conduct of the campaign was overseen by the independent UK Electoral Commission that set and inforced rules, covering campaign groups, funding, media broadcasts, advertising and the role of both Governments.

The Scottish Government published it's White Paper on it's Independence proposal and preferred Question a year before the proposed election date. The Electoral Commission studied the proposed Question, cautioned that it could be perceived as pro Independence and suggested a change of  wording. The Scottish Government accepted the Electoral Commissions recommendation without question.

The referendum campaign was conducted peacefully with the most disturbing acts a Labour Politician kicking someone on the chin bone, someone throwing two Eggs at the Scottish Labour leader, some posters getting torn or stolen and some run of the mill, but still nasty twitter and Facebook Trolling!

The Referendum was held on the 14th of September 2014, 85% of the electorate voted and it was deemed free and fair by and even larger number of independent observers.

Unfortunately from my point of view the result was 55% to 45% to remain in the Uk and not to become an Independent Country!

The Scottish Government immediately accepted the result!

AND THAT'S HOW WE DO IT IN THE DEMOCRATIC WEST!

Peter.

We Irish had a good laugh that yon daft wee scots VOTED to stay under the queen. :P

Just yanking your chain :)

Contrast/compare that with Catalonia, and its grinding battle for devolution/independence against a very determined Madrid.

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Kino I agree in the belief he shootfown of the airliner was just a terrible clusterfu*k of a mistake.

However to deny it, point the finger at the Ukr and then say that a ground attack plane ( for one im not even sure su25s can fly to 30 or 40k feet can they? And go fast enough to overtake an airliner thats already at speed and altitude?)

The su25 is not an interceptor at all. The best it can do to defend itself air to air is its gun and 2 a2a IR missiles that have a range of a few miles.  These are ongst the best reasons why the idea a su25 shot the flight down is a blatant lie. Even the SU had the dignity to say for example yes we shot down klm 007 we thouggt it was a US spyplane.

Also notice the Russians claim all their strikes have perfect accuracy no civvie casualties. Bull. The US government has admitted like in Kunduz when we target the wrong stuff and kill civilians.  So no noone is hating on your country vlad or your service and to say we.re doing so by pointing these things out is a straw man - an english expression for a fake argument to divert attention.

What many ARE doing is challenging your sometimes verbatim to official state run news organizations posts asserting nonsense. Speaking of nonsense why should anyone give you any particular credibility. You UTTERLY denied Russia being in Ukr AT ALL and then one day you just started saying they were there. No "I was wrong" nothing.

Noone her3 hates Russians as far as I know. Despise the regime in power, Putin, 

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19 minutes ago, Sublime said:

What many ARE doing is challenging your sometimes verbatim to official state run news organizations posts asserting nonsense. Speaking of nonsense why should anyone give you any particular credibility. You UTTERLY denied Russia being in Ukr AT ALL and then one day you just started saying they were there. No "I was wrong" nothing.

I believe that is what the TV show 'Scandal' called the Bill Clinton defense: "It's not true. It's not true. It's not true. It's old news."

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1 hour ago, Peter Cairns said:

The Scottish Government immediately accepted the result!

AND THAT'S HOW WE DO IT IN THE DEMOCRATIC WEST!

Peter.

If the Scotts can behave as a civilized, rational, solid thinking people with a respect for the rule of law then it is clear to me ANYBODY can.  Hell, even the Quebecois managed to do it... twice!

Steve

P.S.  long time readers of my posts know I am a huge fan of both the Quebecois and the Scotts, so obviously I am kidding.  Now, if I were talking about the Finns... ;)

 

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One  of the things this discussion highlights is the difference between Democracy and Populism, and Rule and Law.

In most of the West we have Democracy and Law, a free press and speech and the rule of Law. we see that in the demise of Richard Nixon. When he told Frost in the famous interview that it wasn't illegal if the President did it, America including his own supporters said "Oh yes it is" and he had to go, pushed out by protest and a free press.

 In Russia we have Populism and Rule, Putin is popular so he rules above the law, his word is law, so if he says it wasn't shot down by a Russian Plane, then it wasn't.

It might seem Alice in wonderland to us but it's really just a different mind set and tradition. From the autocratic rule of the Czars through the Soviet years where the operated     "Democratic socialism "You are elected by your peers but once elected your decisions are binding" right up to Putin, the leaders word is true his views are just opinions, there are facts, not to be challenged or refuted. His word isn't just Law...it's truth.

People brought up in that tradition and system will back the official line because being official it must be true.

 

I had a friend who worked at Parliament in Edinburgh and he was showing round a group of Russian students for a while and explaining how the system worked. The Russians struggled with the concept of the opposition because in there eyes having two opposing views was odd. For them there was right and wrong and if we were the government we should have and use the power to silence our political opponents for spreading lies!!!!

 

Peter.

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Steve,

"f the Scotts can behave as a civilized, rational, solid thinking people with a respect for the rule of law then it is clear to me ANYBODY can.  Hell, even the Quebecois managed to do it... twice!"

On the subject of Democracy and people who think they can just ignore things like the separation of the executive and the judiciary....are you having fun with The Donald!

Peter.

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1 hour ago, kinophile said:

As far as I understand, UKR did not have any BUKs in that AO, or at least not within range.

Three Ukrainian AD battalions from 156th AD regiment were present in the region. 3rd ADBtn position fell to the republican forces, at which they secured one mobile launcher that wasn't functional, that all from the spokesperson of the Ukrainian ATO. Regardless, ADBtn elements have been spotted(1)(2) operating in the Donbass at the time including first hand accounts of some operators. Some have done some pretty in-depth analysis on the launchers present in the AO :mellow:

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2 hours ago, Peter Cairns said:

As everyone else has gone loony toons I might as well join in.

<snip>

There was an agreed Referendum date and a two year period to allow preparation and democratic debate.

<snip>

The Scottish Government immediately accepted the result!

AND THAT'S HOW WE DO IT IN THE DEMOCRATIC WEST!

Well that is not loony toons at all...

Yeah that is exactly right - similar issues and handled well (with an even closer vote) in Canada.  That is why so many people around the world can tell if something passes the smell test - because we have watched it done right many times in many countries.

None of this is rocket science.

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18 minutes ago, BTR said:

Three Ukrainian AD battalions from 156th AD regiment were present in the region. 3rd ADBtn position fell to the republican forces, at which they secured one mobile launcher that wasn't functional, that all from the spokesperson of the Ukrainian ATO. Regardless, ADBtn elements have been spotted(1)(2) operating in the Donbass at the time including first hand accounts of some operators. Some have done some pretty in-depth analysis on the launchers present in the AO :mellow:

Just to be clear from the link you provided, their conclusion was -

In particular, the Buk TELARs of Ukraine’s 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment, which was based near Luhansk, Donetsk, and Mariupol in 2014, do not share any visible similarities among the compared characteristics with Buk 3×2, either in Russia or Ukraine. We can say with confidence that on 17 July 2014, the Russian Buk TELAR numbered 332 of the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk was filmed and photographed in eastern Ukraine. This specific Buk, previously identified as Buk 3×2, was filmed moving to the center of the launch area estimated by the Dutch Safety Board for the missile that downed MH17.

As the Dutch also found a piece of the Buk missile in the plane's wreckage, we can fairly conclusively say MH 17 was downed  by a Buk and the only evidence in existence points to a Russian Buk operating in occupied Ukrainian territory.  Agreed?  Or is there some other message hidden in there somehow?

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12 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

My replies are in bold black I will reply to your other arguments when I am more free.

I'm going to shorten this:

 

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Russia of course will politically force Ukraine to not go over join the EU and have better relations and deals with Russia, This is natural. Ukrainians are still not happy with the current government BTW. Economy is very low, and to fix itself will take a while. Corruption is still present, dead Ukrainian troops are marked as missing so families don't have to get paid compensation.

 

You are correct.  And what is the reason for the major military expenses and the families being broken apart?  The Russian war in Donbas.

Russia trying to retain control and influence in Ukraine is fine.  It's what nations do.  It's HOW Russia did it that is the problem.  That is the very definition of aggression and that is why the West has a justifiable right to view Russia as an aggressor.  Russia is being judged by its actions.

 

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A military crack down over a violent riot it was far from a crackdown, In the US it would have been way bloodier if it were to happen. Which is the right thing to happen..

 

First, the Maidan protests were overall peaceful.  However, as months dragged on and the SBU and FSB stepped up its campaign of violence against Maidan protestors and has even been accused of "false flag" violence via Right Sector and Svoboda.  Since Russia has a history of doing this as a means of discrediting otherwise legitimate protests, I'm sure there is some truth to this.

As for the US, it is not relevant.  Plus, there's a difference between political protests and flat out riots.  Even the flat out riots in the US didn't see 100 bodies stacked up.  Even the LA Riots resulted in 55 deaths, the majority of which were not caused by government police forces.  But again, completely and totally irrelevant.

 

 

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Think of it as making sure nothing happens to the referendum, Crimea did not join Russia right away. There was a process before voting started.

 

Yes, and that process is called "invasion".

 

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Ok, and I don't see how at this stage this shows the Russian army effected Ukraine.

 

The Russian forces were moved there for three reasons:

1.  To threaten and intimidate the new Ukrainian government and the people of Ukraine.

2.  To stage forces for the invasion of Crimea and later Donbas.

3.  To possibly invade eastern Ukraine if conditions were favorable.

The only reason they weren't there for was "drills" as Russia claimed at the time.

 

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A brilliant operation that blocked the Ukrainian government using force on referendum supporters, as well as securing interests. I mean if they didn't do that Crimea would be what happened in Donbass. And BTW a lot of Ukrainian servicemen defected.

 

No, it was a brilliant operation as part of a long planned military invasion of Crimea.  The plans were established years before and had nothing to do with anything that was going on in February.  And yes, a large number of Ukrainians supported union with Russia.  Large numbers of Austrians supported union with the Third Reich, so what's your point?

 

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Bases were surrounding quite politely and taken over without any deaths any where. Video footage shows that Russian troops did not provoke any Ukrainian military men and quite calmly did their objectives.

 

Again you demonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about.  Or do you consider this friendly behavior?  There were many such attacks and one Ukrainian officer was shot dead and (IIRC) 2 were wounded.

 

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Bussed in thousands of Russian citizens? Well I'd understand if you said a few activist leaders I'd maybe say that could be viable.

 

Again, you say this because you are ignorant of facts.  Here's just one article documenting the busloads of Russian citizens entering Ukraine to spread violence a month before Russia sent in Girkin and his men because things weren't moving fast enough for the Kremlin:

www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/world/europe/russias-hand-can-be-seen-in-the-protests.html?_r=0

 

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Should it had let Ukraine and other countries media play instead? And indeed there was Russian discrimination among the new government formed. I mean what else explains all the right sector groups, and destruction of historical statues.

 

Crimea was a part of Ukraine, not Russia.  Russia had no legal or moral right to block communications with Ukraine.  Therefore the answer to you question is "yes, Russia should not have suppressed the media and phone connections between two pieces of the same country".  But such action is normal for dictatorships, especially ones conducting an illegal military action.  The only Russian discrimination within Ukraine that was happening in these early days was against things like Russian invading and stealing Ukrainian land.  Justifiable reasons to have anti-Russian feelings.

 

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Obviously events like this helped Girkin's cause: Graphic footage of SU-25 hitting a civilain center indiscriminately.

 

Sure, but why did this airstrike happen in the first place?  Because there were peaceful protestors respectfully requesting more autonomy, or because Russia was using armed violence to achieve it's selfish political interests?

BTW, it was established that there was a ZSU-23 on the other side of the park firing at the SU-25.  This was in violation of all international laws.  Sure, the SU-25 made a very badly aimed strike and civilians died, but a badly aimed attack at something that is shooting at you is not "indiscriminate".  This is indescriminent:

 
 
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Of course, not everyone wanted to seperate from Ukraine but no one was happy about what was going on in Kiev. I know of people who hate both the DPR/LPR and the Ukrainian government. Although I don't know how trustable those polls are, as know one enjoyed Ukrainian artillery raining down on them.

 
 
Russia's invasion gave the people of Donbas no choice, no alternative.  Had Russian not invaded what would Donbas look like now?  A war zone?  Extremely unlikely.
 

<strong>Lack of support? I know of separatists wanting more men to join, but that doesn&#39;t show a lack of support for the cause. Because often times, people are scared to actually go and fight.</strong>

            In the early days there were very few Ukrainians &quot;fighting for their freedom&quot;.&nbsp; Probably most, but definitely a huge chunk, were Russian Federation citizens.&nbsp; The Russian Federation citizens who were leading the war against Ukraine bitterly complained about how they couldn&#39;t get locals to join their cause.&nbsp; The Russian attempts to take cities like Mariupol, Kharkiv, and Odessa failed miserably, though many people were killed before they gave up.&nbsp; Russians even carried out terrorist attacks in places, especially Kharkiv.
    

<strong>And what? A preparation for a peace keeping operation being called off, not a big problem.</strong>

            This is because you do not understand how Russia has taken other territory.&nbsp; It is a formula.&nbsp; Stage 1 is to create chaos and death, Stage 2 is to insert &quot;peace keepers&quot; to militarily control the area, Stage 3 is to convert the area over time to being a full puppet of Russia.&nbsp; There are more than a dozen examples of this since 1991.

<strong>I&#39;m not familiar with these events.</strong>

            If you were following the activities on a daily basis, as I was, as these things happened then you would know about them.&nbsp; The amount of murder, torture, arbitrary arrest, and general terrorism by people like Bezler, Girkin, and Ponomarev:


            <a href="http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-politics/1652687-sbu_russian_intelligence_officer_involved_in_murder_of_horlivka_city_council_deputy_320582.html" ipsnoembed="true" rel="external nofollow">http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-politics/1652687-sbu_russian_intelligence_officer_involved_in_murder_of_horlivka_city_council_deputy_320582.html</a>


            The checkpoint attack (16 died, not 18 as I wrote) is well documented.&nbsp; It happened on May 22nd:
    
            <a href="http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10076306/Sixteen-killed-in-raid-on-Ukraine-checkpoint" ipsnoembed="true" rel="external nofollow">http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10076306/Sixteen-killed-in-raid-on-Ukraine-checkpoint</a>

            Here&#39;s another one from the week before:

            <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/13/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/" ipsnoembed="true" rel="external nofollow">http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/13/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/</a>
    
            Bezler&#39;s coordinated ambush and murder of SBU officers happened before that.&nbsp; I can&#39;t find a link to it at the moment, but it was three high ranking SBU officers (one Colonel and two Majors IIRC) who were sent in to lead counter operations against Horlivka region.&nbsp; It was one of the first killings I can remember that were directed at Ukrainian forces by Russian separatists (Bezler, like Girkin, was a GRU officer and took part in Crimean invasion).

<strong>Propaganda machines of all parties involved went into overdrive.</strong>

'True.&nbsp; The difference is the Russian propaganda machine was lying about the basic facts (i.e. it was a Russian invasion directed from Moscow) while the Ukrainian propaganda machine only lied about the specifics (often because it simply reported rumors instead of fact checking).&nbsp; This meant Russian propaganda was designed to fake a reason for a war while Ukrainian propaganda did not because Ukraine was actually invaded.

<strong>It ultimately destroyed the Ukrainian offensive, and saved DPR/LPR from ceasing to exist.</strong>

                        And has resulted in probably 8000 more civilian deaths and lots of misery, plus the destruction of the Donbas in order to preserve a puppet for Moscow to use against a country that is trying to be free of its oppression.’

Yup, that’s a pretty honorable thing Putin has done there.&nbsp; Hmmm... I wonder why Putin still lies about all of this?

Steve

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1 hour ago, BTR said:

Three Ukrainian AD battalions from 156th AD regiment were present in the region. 3rd ADBtn position fell to the republican forces, at which they secured one mobile launcher that wasn't functional, that all from the spokesperson of the Ukrainian ATO. Regardless, ADBtn elements have been spotted(1)(2) operating in the Donbass at the time including first hand accounts of some operators. Some have done some pretty in-depth analysis on the launchers present in the AO :mellow:

Very interesting,  thank you! Good to know, especially from multiple sources. 

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Sorry about the format problems.  This forum still has some bugs in it!

Anyway, Vladimir is distracting us from the primary point.  Russia aggressive and without any legal justification invaded Ukraine and is killing people on a daily basis.  This, plus all the other things I've listed, should give anybody in Europe and the US cause for concern about future Russian actions.  Russia is an aggressor state by choice, now the West has to defend against it because it has no choice.  As long as the responses to Russian aggression are properly weighted, that is unfortunately the right thing to do.  So far the West has done that.

Steve

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6 minutes ago, kinophile said:

Very interesting,  thank you! Good to know, especially from multiple sources. 

Yes, but it is still irrelevant.  BTR even linked to the most comprehensive documentation of the vehicles which establishes the one that shot down MH-17 was not Ukrainian.  There is no evidence to suggest the DPR had the Ukrainian BUK operational before or after the MH-17 shoot down.

Steve

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2 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Yes, but it is still irrelevant.  BTR even linked to the most comprehensive documentation of the vehicles which establishes the one that shot down MH-17 was not Ukrainian.  There is no evidence to suggest the DPR had the Ukrainian BUK operational before or after the MH-17 shoot down.

Steve

Correct,  I was just about to post that conclusion. 

So the origin, position and activities of BOTH the Russian and Ukrainian BUK systems, as well as their various differences, have been identified and confirmed through multiple, open source, mutually supportive and independently verifiable evidence sources. 

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6 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

You are correct.  And what is the reason for the major military expenses and the families being broken apart?  The Russian war in Donbas.

Russia trying to retain control and influence in Ukraine is fine.  It's what nations do.  It's HOW Russia did it that is the problem.  That is the very definition of aggression and that is why the West has a justifiable right to view Russia as an aggressor.  Russia is being judged by its actions.

 BS aside what Russia did was indeed illegal in international law and it was similar to Kosovo, although obviously this rebellion did not start off with full Russian support. There were very few rebels who knew what they were doing and there were majority of rebels who obviously would be considered "conscript" CM wise. Their equipment was obviously rag tag, after the war turned more serious, that is indeed when Russia started advising and small scale arming and training. Yes you are right that this justifies the west's stance politically. Although this does not make what happened in Kiev right either, I was following on about Maidan day one. Police were beaten, rocks thrown ect, ect. At some point molotovs were thrown in. And then what do you have? A puppet of the EU in charge "just until the votes take place." I think it was on maidan where they were shouting, "Kill a Moscovite!" was it not?

6 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

First, the Maidan protests were overall peaceful.  However, as months dragged on and the SBU and FSB stepped up its campaign of violence against Maidan protestors and has even been accused of "false flag" violence via Right Sector and Svoboda.  Since Russia has a history of doing this as a means of discrediting otherwise legitimate protests, I'm sure there is some truth to this.

As for the US, it is not relevant.  Plus, there's a difference between political protests and flat out riots.  Even the flat out riots in the US didn't see 100 bodies stacked up.  Even the LA Riots resulted in 55 deaths, the majority of which were not caused by government police forces.  But again, completely and totally irrelevant.

Steve, let's face it, people in the US know better not to throw molotov cock tails, bring weapons, attack riot police while they block such aggressive walks toward political buildings. Neither FSB or SBU would not be able to use Right Sector as right sector was all about the toppling of the government. 

7 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

The Russian forces were moved there for three reasons:

1.  To threaten and intimidate the new Ukrainian government and the people of Ukraine.

2.  To stage forces for the invasion of Crimea and later Donbas.

3.  To possibly invade eastern Ukraine if conditions were favorable.

The only reason they weren't there for was "drills" as Russia claimed at the time.

I'll agree that the drills could have been to show force against the illegal Ukrainian government, and I'll also agree that some units that took place in the drill were used in Crimea. Although snap drills were planned, and the incidents in Kiev just added onto it.

7 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Again, you say this because you are ignorant of facts.  Here's just one article documenting the busloads of Russian citizens entering Ukraine to spread violence a month before Russia sent in Girkin and his men because things weren't moving fast enough for the Kremlin:

 

The article just confirms activist leaders being there, every country has its own radicals. Why would these activists have to be sponsored by the Kremlin? 

7 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

(Videos of Russian soldiers storming bases)

I wasn't being literal when I meant politely, its a term used for the "polite green men." obviously they stormed bases guns at the ready with APCs. Although no one was killed by Russian troops. And there are countless of pictures of people posing with the Russian soldiers supporting them, I don't see them being held at gun point.

Re Russian cluster bombing video and Ukrainian air strike: 

That is not just to indiscriminate, that's a poor decision on dealing with a military target. Cluster bombing is effective although terrorists have very large groupings on these city blocks. Which of course would not make it right even if one loss of innocent life is lost, and I would condemn such a bombing from the Russian Air Force.

About Ukrainian indiscriminate shelling. This will give you a glimpse at why the support for DPR/LPR got more popular than it should have when it first started.

Also look at bombed out houses and building in separatist zones, It was not the DPR/LPR armies that started shelling and conducting air strikes.

7 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Russia's invasion gave the people of Donbas no choice, no alternative.  Had Russian not invaded what would Donbas look like now?  A war zone?  Extremely unlikely.

But Russia did not invade Donbas when Ukrainian military units were first sent over to stop the voting process. 

7 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

 And has resulted in probably 8000 more civilian deaths and lots of misery, plus the destruction of the Donbas in order to preserve a puppet for Moscow to use against a country that is trying to be free of its oppression.’

Yup, that’s a pretty honorable thing Putin has done there.&nbsp; Hmmm... I wonder why Putin still lies about all of this?

 

Well it was not the separatists that started shelling and doing airstrikes in densely populated areas, without even warning the populace. Majority of those deaths are due to the Ukrainian government. And I don't say this ignorantly, I feel personally obliged to this war as I have been there before and have family members living there, so I am not trying to offend anyone, but clearly even though there were Russian troops in Donbas, Ukraine used extreme force to stop a local voting process and small scale militia force. Which than escalated into a full on proxy war in a civil war. As you can see I'm not denying the fact that Russia sent forces to help the situation although I would appreciate it if you can see that the maidan revolt in Kiev and shelling of urban populaces and denying Russian and Ukrainians rights to choose who governed the country in other parts of Ukraine, Russia has for geopolitical balance and also to defend the Russian and Ukrainian people of the east supported the DPR/LPR rebellions, passively and actively. 

Why does the Russian government deny supporting the DPR/LPR?

  1. Hybrid warfare 
  2. Because it used up all of its political points for the Crimean land grab.
  3. To avoid a possible escalation of events.   

Now please, do not think I am saying the Russian government is an angel. Obviously it has geopolitical goals in Ukraine, just as any other country. But what I'm trying to get to is that it is helping a side that has been discriminated against, not able to vote for who's in charge, a majority Russian speaking populace. Russia's moves in Ukraine is definitely justifiable amongst Russians and Ukrainians who are in the east or in Russia. You all have good points, and arguing on the internet with westerners has made me think less biased. Although I cannot just accept the killings of innocent Russians and Ukrainians in the east, and that is why I support Russian intervention in Ukraine. And yes a bunch of lives have been lost in this war, but this is not Russia's fault. 

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1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

. And yes a bunch of lives have been lost in this war, but this is not Russia's fault. 

The entire war, it's creation and continuation is Russian Government/Putin's fault. 

Remove their involvement and the war fades into a UKR victory and a formal,  open, observed and transparent referendum. 

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10 hours ago, sburke said:

Just to be clear from the link you provided, their conclusion was -

In particular, the Buk TELARs of Ukraine’s 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment, which was based near Luhansk, Donetsk, and Mariupol in 2014, do not share any visible similarities among the compared characteristics with Buk 3×2, either in Russia or Ukraine. We can say with confidence that on 17 July 2014, the Russian Buk TELAR numbered 332 of the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk was filmed and photographed in eastern Ukraine. This specific Buk, previously identified as Buk 3×2, was filmed moving to the center of the launch area estimated by the Dutch Safety Board for the missile that downed MH17.

As the Dutch also found a piece of the Buk missile in the plane's wreckage, we can fairly conclusively say MH 17 was downed  by a Buk and the only evidence in existence points to a Russian Buk operating in occupied Ukrainian territory.  Agreed?  Or is there some other message hidden in there somehow?

Nope, no other message there, just posting one of the more "famous" analytical pieces on this. The rhetoric changed to 332 from 312 about a couple of months ago, so we might see other revelation at some point later on. 

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Russia believes it has the right to interfere in it's 'backyard'. Does Europe also have this right?

Would Russia mind if European states started creating & funding armed insurgencies in every restive Russian province?

How about us arming and equipping Chechens' next time that get's hot , send some special forces in to 'help' them out?

The problem with this thinking is we all go back to cold-war day 1; and I suggest Russian can no longer afford such a situation.

And none of us who lived through the fear years really want's a repeat.

Edited by General Melchid
spelling, clarity.
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29 minutes ago, kinophile said:

The entire war, it's creation and continuation is Russian Government/Putin's fault. 

Remove their involvement and the war fades into a UKR victory and a formal,  open, observed and transparent referendum. 

Listen IDK what world you are living in, a violent riot throws out a government. And without the say of any other region in Ukraine, a new government is installed which is very pro EU. Of course people are going to rebel, in Ukraine people were working with already below average standard pay. And now its even worse, where is the EU now? Nothing a bunch of Russians and Ukrainians have been killed by this murderous regime. Countless of evidence shows Ukrainian Armed Forces committing war crimes against the people of Donbas. No matter even if there are DPR/LPR targets in urban areas you are not suppose to rain down hell with MLRS, Air strikes, Artillery volleys without precision use or even an accurate firing solution. As you can see from countless of footage of mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters crying over their loved ones. It was not the DPR/LPR who started shelling themselves. Even if arguments against DPR/LPR uprisings are right, what will EU or the rest of the world say to Ukraine about these war crimes commited? Absolutely nothing. And if you are to support a regime installed by this Maidan then there is nothing else left arguable. 

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3 minutes ago, General Melchid said:

Russia believes it has the right to interfere in it's 'backyard'. Does Europe also have this right?

Would Russia mind if European states started creating & funding armed insurgencies in every restive Russian province?

How about us arming and equipping Chechens' next time that get's hot , send some special forces in to 'help' them out?

The problem with this thinking is we all go back to cold-war day 1; and I suggest Russian can no longer afford such a situation.

Of course if there was an actual Chechen rebellion European states may try, But what will justify it? Do they have their own people to protect? Are they historically bound to Chechnya? Are their own people living there for hundreds of years? No, so there is nothing that can justify any European state supporting such actions in Chechnya. Although just like I said Ukrainians have killed many innocent people in Eastern Ukraine. The Russian government in the first Chechen war also did the same, and even some cases in the second Chechen war, and many lives have been lost to bombardment. But of course "Chechen" terrorists have also committed crimes like genocide in the caucuses, and bombings ect, ect.

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I will certainly agree with the point that the western media in general has failed to criticise the Ukraine for possible war crimes.

My point with funding insurgencies is that it is a confirmed Russian tactic and any excuse can be made 'good enough' to justify intervention.

Indeed Europe could easily say these people are eastern Europeans under a cruel regime ( even if they share ethnicity with regime) lets help!

By such logic any one can justify funding such actions; and again I suggest we could fund more of these kinds of proxy wars then the Russians, as we have a lot more money and functioning economies.

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1 minute ago, General Melchid said:

I will certainly agree with the point that the western media in general has failed to criticise the Ukraine for possible war crimes.

My point with funding insurgencies is that it is a confirmed Russian tactic and any excuse can be made 'good enough' to justify intervention.

Indeed Europe could easily say these people are eastern Europeans under a cruel regime ( even if they share ethnicity with regime) lets help!

By such logic any one can justify funding such actions; and again I suggest we could fund more of these kinds od proxy wars then the Russians, as we have a lot more money and functioning economies.

You see, this war isn't the usual proxy war, most of it is an actual civil war. The Russian military part of it is a covert operation aimed at helping the Donbas rebellion to succeed against a new open enemy (New Ukrainian government) that is justified by how ever you can say "Right to defend Russian speakers" or anything else. Let's look at it in Afghanistan, The US was literally aiding and arming now a days Taliban which is a 100% terrorist group, and I support US combating them in Afghanistan. Anyways they were supporting them with weapons, training, advisers just like Russia did in Donbas. However Russia is not doing this to terrorize Ukraine, It is doing it because it has an obvious goal of supporting such rebellion because: 1, Russia just lost an ally (Yanukovych) 2, This country is most likely going to become a NATO member. Of course the war crimes of the Ukrainian armed forces helped justify the actions taken. 

 

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