BRM-1K and BRM-3K

[db_zero]

What would be the advantage of bringing these along. Are the spotting capabilities far superior. What about the ground radar? Is it better suited for open terrain that urban or build up areas?

[DougPhresh]

The radar does work. There was a really good post about this a while ago. You might be able to find it if you search?

[db_zero]

Thanks...a search of BRM-1K and BRM-3K, turned up nothing, but ground radar did. From what I was able to gather usefulness in built up areas is probably limited.

[Haiduk]

Thanks...a search of BRM-1K and BRM-3K, turned up nothing, but ground radar did. From what I was able to gather usefulness in built up areas is probably limited.

I have gathered some for you . I don't know how this equipment realized in the game, but in real we have next:

BRM-1K equipment:

1RL133 (PSNR-5K) radar. "Single man" target detectin range - 3...4 km, "group of men" type - 5...6 km, "truck/tank" type - 8...10 km. Probability of detection - 80 %. Errors of range measuring: no more 25 m in sound mode, no more 50 m in visaul "A" mode, no more 100 m in visual "B" mode.

1D8 (DKRM-1) laser range finder. 300-8000 m range finding at the day and up to 400 m at the night. Error of measurement - no more 10 m.

ERRS-1 SIGINT station. Enemy radar work detection up to 60 km with error no more 15 deg of direction. Deternination of radar wawes in 2,7-30 sm and frequency (200-8000 Hz) diapasons

For visual night observation has only one binocular BN-2 (up to 600 m range for tank and 300 m for man) or gun sight 1PN22M2, which in night mode usable on 400 m range.  

 

BRM-3K equipment:

- 1RL133-3 (PSNR-5KM) radar. "truck/armor" type detection range raised on 10-12 km in comarison with PSNR-5K in BRM-1K. Target coordinates calculation accuracy - +/- 50 m

- IR observe device 1PN71. "Tank" type target detection up to 3000 m. Zoom - 3x, 4x (spotting mode), 12.5x (detection mode). Visual angle: 1.3 deg (narrow), 4.3 deg (wide)

 - active-pulse night vision recon device 1PN61. "Tank" type target range detection on 500...3000 m. Visual angle 3 deg 40'. Zoom - 7x. Has three modes of use: passive (the range reducing to 1300...2500 m depending on target type), observation with laser lighting on target, observation with range finding. Target coordinates calculation accuracy +/- 30 m

- laser range finder 1D14. Up to 10 km range for armor and up to 20 km range for large objects. Error of measurement no more 10 m on 10 km.

- satellite navigation system and recon data transmission system.  

 

[db_zero]

Thanks, that's interesting information. Be interesting to see how it works in the game and if built up areas limit the effectiveness.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

GSR performance should always be taken with a massive grain of salt.  The advantage to things like JSTARS or airborne ground scanning radars is the LOS factors are less pronounced...but when you mount the platform at ground level (or even mast-level elevated) you're still factoring in a lot of things that'll block radar signals, or scatter/disrupt them.  

It's also a less intuitive system to judge sensor data on.  While visual feedback (like thermals) can be confusing sometimes, it also presents data in a format our brains understand.  The problem with radars is often it requires some special experience or training to really turn from blip to confirmation.  False returns, or bad returns often greatly complicate understanding the battlefield via radar.

The US Army at least still uses GSR but it uses it in the same way you might be guided by the ? icons during CMBS.  It is not a targetable thing, but it certainly cues attention and other sensors to the location.  At the ranges that CMBS typically takes place and conditions involved thermals/visual contact is arguably superior.  

[John Kettler]

panzersaurkrautwerfer, (or are you now a hyphenate?)

My understanding is that these vehicles, using radar, are perfectly capable of finding troop and vehicle groupings (wouldn't bother with a few men), targeting non-precision FA and of sending feedback for adjusting fires. Obviously, they can use other sensors to do precision things, too, but we are talking all WX here. It is additionally my understanding that this is why they have long been priority targets for US ground force commanders.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

 

 

 

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

My understanding is that these vehicles, using radar, are perfectly capable of finding troop and vehicle groupings (wouldn't bother with a few men), targeting non-precision FA and of sending feedback for adjusting fires. Obviously, they can use other sensors to do precision things, too, but we are talking all WX here. It is additionally my understanding that this is why they have long been priority targets for US ground force commanders.

They're capable of locating some targets sometimes at range.  In the larger sense they do give a significant amount of SA when conditions are conducive to employing a ground mounted radar.  However during my time with the reconnaissance community and then at the Cavalry Leader's Course (which is in so many words, a course to help Troop and Squadron*  level leaders plan reconnaissance/security** missions), we rarely discussed them in terms of anything but serving as a cue to move more precise assets, and indeed they seemed to live in the same realm of fidelity as acoustic and seismic sensors.  

Again useful, but in say, confirming an enemy AoA they'd be used to confirm that something is out on COA 2's approach, which would then cue other events (waking up the scouts located on COA 2, sending UAVs, bringing in JSTARs from the next AO, or sending rotary wing to confirm).  Neither us Yankee imperialists in the class, our Australian exchange officer instructor, or our other foreign exchange officers seemed to be putting much faith in ground search radar as a primary means of detection.

Which is to say I'm sure it works to some degree, but players parking a BRM and expecting it to illuminate the battlefield, showing where each HATO dog lies cowering before the might of mother Russia's electronic eyes might be disappointed***.  It's an asset that is part of a larger collection plan, but it will generally lose out to advanced optical type sensors at most direct fire weapons system ranges (especially in on the uneven complex terrain that makes up most battlefields in CMBS).  Even a fairly flat and rolling map will present some major LOS issues unless the radar is literally parked on the highest ground, and the enemy only stays on the highground.

*For the benefit of Commonwealth folks, the US Army designates Company level organizations Troops, and Battalion level organizations Squadrons in Cavalry units, while platoons level remains simply platoon.

**Cavalry organizations play two roles: reconnaissance which broadly speaking is gathering information on the offense, and security which is mostly serving as the first point of contact between the enemy and friendly forces (either on the offensive or defensive) in increasing levels of response (so a "screen" mission generally is similar to "report any enemy targets, shoot their recon assets if encountered, call artillery as long as you can then fall back" while "cover" looks more like a mobile defense if done to the 9's).

***Which is not to imply the radar is useless at all.  Its range of vision and ability to cover wide tracts of land, albeit imperfectly is very useful in rapidly narrowing down where you should look at the 6-12 KM range.  But again in CMBS we as the folks more or less starting well within the effective ranges of virtually every not-BMP-1 vehicle mounted weapon are already well past where any GSR is especially useful.  

Russians are not dumb.  Just often we receive tools in wargames and simulations that then appear less functional when removed from the "system" they're designed to operate in and support.