For CMX2 version 4. Felled trees roadblock?

[Sequoia]

I know this won't be in the initial release of CMFB but do you feel this would be an important terrain type to add down the road (no pun intended)? This would have to be a new type of terrain and not a flavor object to be worth anything.

[MikeyD]

Road blocks had been on the wish list but they seem to work better in theory than in practice. Remember those CMBN anti-tank obstacles that tanks most often merely drive around? That's not to say road blocks won't show up in the module when the advance into German begins. But first they gotta figure out how to make them tactically useful and not merely useless eye candy.

[RockinHarry]

Road blocks had been on the wish list but they seem to work better in theory than in practice. Remember those CMBN anti-tank obstacles that tanks most often merely drive around? That's not to say road blocks won't show up in the module when the advance into German begins. But first they gotta figure out how to make them tactically useful and not merely useless eye candy.

Drive around THAT! lol

I really hope for some dragon teeth included with CMFB. And I like the felled tree roadbloack and other variations (debris roadblocks and the like) idea as well. I think they are tactically usefull, where they´d been deployed historically. Along forest tracks, in the siegfried line, town entries...., but I think you mean how they should actually be treated in the game. Semi impassable like in CMBN (they can be blasted with a wall in the same AS), or through some ordinary engineer treatments. The usual question was, does all that fit within the timeframe of a CM game. I have no data about blasting dragon teeth with satchel charges, but it appears it would be outside the timeframe. They´d also be dealt with by dozer tanks, pushing earthen ramps across. Also outside timeframe. Felled tree roadblocks is a different matter, but there´s not just one kind of those barricades. Smaller or less extensive ones, could be pulled out of the way with lighter vehicles (AC or HT). The bigger ones, that could stretch along roads to an extend of several tenths of meters and more are a different matter. For better effects these usually would´ve been mined and such. So at last it remains to map & mission makers, to place these in reasonable ways if these remain permanent, non destructible obstacles. For engineering operations, some hard data needs to be found, if removal for these obstacles should be enabled for a CM games time frame, but it´s nothing that can be achieved in just a few minutes, possibly under enemy fire. So that´s my 5 euro cents.

[snarre]

problem whit roadbloack is now that they are too expensive same ass all fortification. 

[RockinHarry]

Did a quick check in some period german training regulation (Das Kommandobuch, Band 7, Die Pionierkompanie) and these are some figures for the felled tree obstacles, called in german "schwere Baumsperre" (heavy version) and "leichte Baumsperre" (light version).

Heavy: 50m deep (minimum), one platoon, 4-6 hours of worktime, effective vs all vehicles.
Light: 10-30 trees, one squad, 2-6 hours of worktime, effective only vs vehicles with little cross country capability.
These are preferably salted with mines and booby traps as well.

Thats just the basics and as one can see, they´re "expensive". These are the "professionally" made versions off course, but just a few logs thrown across a road, could barely hold up a motorized force for long.

[Sequoia]

I would foresee them as a terrain type and usable by scenario designers, not meant as something to be purchased in a quick battle so expense wouldn't be an issue. What I'm thinking of is the roadblocks thrown up by US engineers to slow down the initial German advance in the early stages of Wacht am Rhein. As I recall these would often have a AT gun or even a howitzer behind them as well as the aforementioned engineers.

[RockinHarry]

I would foresee them as a terrain type and usable by scenario designers, not meant as something to be purchased in a quick battle so expense wouldn't be an issue. What I'm thinking of is the roadblocks thrown up by US engineers to slow down the initial German advance in the early stages of Wacht am Rhein. As I recall these would often have a AT gun or even a howitzer behind them as well as the aforementioned engineers.

Yes, I also thought of terrain type that could be dealt with by engineer operations. Among my many prototype maps, I had experimented some with low bocage roadblocks, which actually work quite well, when also spiced up with some flavor objects, giving these a more realistic appearance. A map maker then can decide on difficulty of these LB roadblocks, placing more or less in a row, requiring more troops with satchels to blast them out of the way. It´s still way faster than in RL, but it´s a workable substitute, unless BFC comes with something new.

You mean those roadblocks that were prepared in advance, packs of explosives tied to tree trunks and then blasted in ways that falling trees would interlock with each other, when falling on the roads. I´ve seen a couple of pics showing US engineer preparations in the Ardennes, as well as lots of german ones using that practice, which seemed a common place road blocking method then. Would be a nice to have in CM for sure, not just placing these roadblocks pregame, but also explosively felling trees in midgame.  ....not likely to happen anytime soon I fear.

[womble]

Though Steve (I think it was) said that they'd like to delve a little more into the combat engineering side of the game in future iterations of the engine, so it's not entirely impossible that "active" or "reactive" explosive/demolitions will make some sort of appearance in the future. Sometime.

[sttp]

Yes, I also thought of terrain type that could be dealt with by engineer operations. <snip>

Is that actually possible, to have the game change a tile's terrain type during a battle? That would certainly open up some interesting possibilities for scenario creators. Gives me a few neat ideas.

If that's not possible now, maybe it'll be added to the list for CMx3. (A list that must already be a mile long.)

You also mentioned, in a different post, a "Heavy: 50m deep (minimum)" felled tree obstacle, as outlined in the real German manuals. Just wondering if anyone has seen any examples of those? (Yes, I know that they mean 50 meters "deep" in the horizontal, on-the-ground sense....) The engineering side of me would just love to see one as used in practice. It seems like it'd be more work to construct one of those than it would be to just create other types of barriers, other types that'd probably be more effective, too? I guess, though, there would've been times when no other options were available.

Very interesting info you've provided. Thanks.

Edited December 10, 2015 by sttp
reasons

[MikeyD]

Lets not forget about fog-of-war. For a roadblock to be a surprise it would have to be placed like barbed wire as a fortification, not a terrain element. After CMSF BFC abandoned no-fog-of-war trenches for fortification objects. I can see why BFC didn't include road blocks in the basegame, I can't recall any anecdotes about US hastily throwing up log barricades to stop the German advance. 

CMFB has several modules it will need to eventually fill. Brits, allies, crossing the Rhine, advance into the Ruhr, late war exotics. So 'stuff' will be added when its appropriate. You may have noticed no uparmored Shermans in the basegame. Steve wanted them in but he stumbled on solid documentation on the when the uparmoring project occurred, in what numbers and how they were portioned out. That pushed 'em right out of the basegame timeframe. Will make for a cool module, though! Shermans with bow armor thicker than a King Tiger's! 

[RockinHarry]

 

Is that actually possible, to have the game change a tile's terrain type during a battle? That would certainly open up some interesting possibilities for scenario creators. Gives me a few neat ideas.

If that's not possible now, maybe it'll be added to the list for CMx3. (A list that must already be a mile long.)

You also mentioned, in a different post, a "Heavy: 50m deep (minimum)" felled tree obstacle, as outlined in the real German manuals. Just wondering if anyone has seen any examples of those? (Yes, I know that they mean 50 meters "deep" in the horizontal, on-the-ground sense....) The engineering side of me would just love to see one as used in practice. It seems like it'd be more work to construct one of those than it would be to just create other types of barriers, other types that'd probably be more effective, too? I guess, though, there would've been times when no other options were available.

Very interesting info you've provided. Thanks.

Tiles currently don´t really change, but I was referring to low bocage placed across a road. The terrain tile then changes (in the editor) from road to low bocage tile and remains that way during the game. The point is that the low bocage when breached with 1-2 satchels makes a gap wide enough, so that the road then can be used for vehicles to pass through and continue along the previously blocked road. The same can be done with a low wall segment and anything that the engineer blast command could be applied on.

The 50-100m deep obstacle meant 50-100m length of a road, not width (imagine a 50m long road with 6 low bocage placed on the road and behind each other). These by handbook felled tree roadblocks required the mentioned time, material and men to construct, in a non hostile environment. Not to be confused with prepared (emergency) roadblocks, which see a length of roadside trees prepared with demolitions and then blasted when necessary. The same thinkings surely applied here as well with regard to length of these roadblocks and their effectiveness vs. vehicles. During the german retreat from France in 1944, this surely was the most used type, although size of roadblocks mainly depended upon availabability of scarce explosives and time available. Effectiveness of roadblocks also depended on the right place for placement. Vehicles shouldn´t be able to just go around, or not that easily. At last they´re meant to just delay, but not block a path for long times. German felled tree roadblocks in autumn 1944 were more extensive again, when the frontlines stabilized, particularly in the hurtgen forest and all along the Siegfried line.

Other (quick) type roadblocks quite oftenly used by germans, were road craters. These were particularly effective at places where the terrain beside the road was boggy, or otherwise difficult to traverse, particularly for vehicles with little cross country capabilities.

Edited December 11, 2015 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

Lets not forget about fog-of-war. For a roadblock to be a surprise it would have to be placed like barbed wire as a fortification, not a terrain element. After CMSF BFC abandoned no-fog-of-war trenches for fortification objects. I can see why BFC didn't include road blocks in the basegame, I can't recall any anecdotes about US hastily throwing up log barricades to stop the German advance. 

Yes, the ideas mostly apply for recreation of historical battles, where the opposition also had some knowledge of particularly extensive roadblocks and such. Quick battles and where otherwise surprise needs to be maintained keeps requiring the way that is currently done by BFC, through use of objects, rather than terrain types.

I don´t know of detailed US anecdotes about particular types of roadblocks used as well in the Bulge, yet I´ve seen a picture showing US engineers in the Ardennes preparing a length of roadside trees with demolitions. If I find it again, I´ll post here. Most the US "roadblocks" mentioned in any battle of the bulge account surely were of the "blocked by fire" type. A few AT mines hastily layed on the road, covered by AT guns, tanks, TD´s and infantry of any sort. Maybe not even using mines, but just covering an area (road) by fire, that has channelizing effect in otherwise difficult terrain, like forest roads, town entries/exits or crossroads.

[DougPhresh]

Could Daisy Chain mines make a return? I believe they were in the CM1 games.
There's a lot of potential with snow covering them, and making them harder to spot, depending on the weather conditions.

 

WRT roadblocks and the like, even if they don't stop tanks and combat formations they do stop support and echelon. Having driven a gun tractor on bad roads in the Canadian winter, I can say that if the road isn't clear, artillery isn't moving up. Given the choice between a felled tree on the road, and trying to tow a howitzer through deep snow, the solution is likely "wait for the engineers". I know that's somewhat outside of the scope of a quick battle though. 

[akd]

The Germans made fairly extensive use of prepared log and rubble / dirt /stone roadblocks in defended towns and cities.  Not something tanks could just push through, and definitely a significant tactical factor as combat pushed into Germany.

[RockinHarry]

Would be nice to have as said, but in the meantime one could combine hedgehogs with walls as expedient roadblock that could be cleared with satchels. Add bits of flavor objects, wood piles i.e and you have roughly the looks and functionality of any such roadblocks. Off course it´s a map feature and not something to be purchased from the fortifications menu, but it works.

[MarkEzra]

You can make just about anything with enough duct tape

[akd]

Would be nice to have as said, but in the meantime one could combine hedgehogs with walls as expedient roadblock that could be cleared with satchels. Add bits of flavor objects, wood piles i.e and you have roughly the looks and functionality of any such roadblocks. Off course it´s a map feature and not something to be purchased from the fortifications menu, but it works.

No, the hedgehogs cannot be cleared.  There is no placeable fortification object in the game which 1.) prevents vehicle movement and 2.) can be breached by engineers.

[A Canadian Cat]

No, the hedgehogs cannot be cleared.  There is no placeable fortification object in the game which 1.) prevents vehicle movement and 2.) can be breached by engineers.

Actually there is an interesting work around that @rockinharry is possibly aluding to. If you have hedge hogs near bocage and the engineers blast the bocage the blast will also take out the hedge hogs. It happened in the buying the farm AAR I did recently. I think I would want to do some testing before using it and I don't think you could rest assured that it would continue to work in the future either so it might not be a good choice.

[akd]

Ah, possibly.  But then no FoW, so not really a fortification.

[RockinHarry]

Map and scenario maker workaround as said. Place hedgehogs first, then a wall in same AS. Blast command applies to the wall and clears the hedgehog as a by-product. Haven´t tried with (low) bocage yet, but it´s already an obstacle for vehicles and can be blasted, so personally I see no use to combine it with hedgehogs additionally. Yup, no FOW here, but if someone really needs it now.

Btw, I had made some test file some time ago to see what the blast command can be applied to and what not. Removed some stuff so that it´s now CMBN base game only compatible (no modules required). Drop into scenario folder and (test-) play US side:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2yr0ris0mveun0/!0_Hedgehog Break US_2.btt?dl=0

Check also the "bridge roadbloack" which yields some...interesting results.

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by RockinHarry

[A Canadian Cat]

Nice, interesting technique. Did you do that work because of what we saw in my buying the farm AAR or did you already know about the blasting bocage taking out hedge hogs?

[RockinHarry]

Nice, interesting technique. Did you do that work because of what we saw in my buying the farm AAR or did you already know about the blasting bocage taking out hedge hogs?

Cannot recall ATM if I ever had a look into the mentioned AAR, but no, was just routinely messing around with stuff that I´m interested in for my own scenario designs. Call it prototype modules something. I´m mainly looking for stuff that the AIP is getting along with, since it has no awareness for unusual terrain alterations like a human has.

[A Canadian Cat]

Cool, nice work then