Chris Jenkins Posted March 11, 1999 Share Posted March 11, 1999 How are things going? Does it still look good for summer? When do you expect to release the beta version? I know we all want hundreds of bells and whistes, but in the end, we can't wait to see what you've done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 12, 1999 Share Posted March 12, 1999 We still expect an early summer release. Can't tell when "beta" will be reached. Unlike most game companies we don't have a hard and fast schedule with fancy stage names to satisfy upper management Things go in as they go in. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted March 12, 1999 Share Posted March 12, 1999 I am always surprised about how you guys are including so many details. The manual must be pretty hefty. Can you gives us a hint as to the type of intro? Are we looking at a computer animated opening? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 12, 1999 Share Posted March 12, 1999 Thanks John! Intro will be QuickTime war footage set to music. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 12, 1999 Share Posted March 12, 1999 Thanks John! Intro will be QuickTime war footage set to music. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted March 12, 1999 Share Posted March 12, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The manual must be pretty hefty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Speaking of which... Are you planning a nice hefty manual? Something that can be used for a bunker at a pinch? I'm old fashioned like that, and will pay an extra few bucks for one. Rocky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 12, 1999 Share Posted March 12, 1999 Yup, a big 'ol printed manual for sure. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted March 14, 1999 Share Posted March 14, 1999 I'll second the motion for a 'big ole manual'. Having online help or an after market strategy guide in place of a manual is nothing but utter rubbish. It's nice to hear that BTS won't fall by the wayside on this one. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 15, 1999 Share Posted March 15, 1999 Thirding the big old manual vote PLUS asking for a large included weapons stats section (or even better yet a pull-out wallchart (probably not possibly) ). Could you also be sure to include weapons stats in text files on the CD so we can print them out if we want them on paper for ourselves ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted March 15, 1999 Share Posted March 15, 1999 How about throwing in a mini WW2 grenade keychain with combat mission printed on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted March 15, 1999 Share Posted March 15, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Thirding the big old manual vote PLUS asking for a large included weapons stats section (or even better yet a pull-out wallchart (probably not possibly)). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ooh-er. That could be very cool. Maybe for some of the maps as well - better still if they look like real military maps, and not "game" maps. A few games have come with separate charts, maps and such - Civ II, Tornado, Falcon 4, EF2000, etc. It'd be nice, but it does fall towards the luxury/chrome end of my dream-features list. Still, if you run out of things to do... Rocky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Balaban Posted March 16, 1999 Share Posted March 16, 1999 On maps and charts: Maybe have the info on the CD and we can print them off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 16, 1999 Share Posted March 16, 1999 We aren't going to go nuts with paper supplements. Remember, this stuff costs us time and money to produce The more time we spend on this sort of thing, and the more money we spend, the longer it will be for the game to be released, and the higher the price will be when it gets out the door. Many of the suggestions in this thread would require a full time person just to assemble the data to present in a printed format. There are better things to do with our time Most of the critical info you need will be directly in the game. There is a secondary unit info box that gives details about the unit being looked at. Stuff like ground to weight ratios (don't want to bog down, do you!), armor penetration at 3 different angles, firepower at various ranges, weapons on hand, speed, transport capacity, etc. are all a click and a key stroke away. So if we had NO supplements (don't worry, there will be some) you could get all the info you needed out of the game itself. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 16, 1999 Share Posted March 16, 1999 Will the armor penetration diagrams be included in the manual or on CD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 16, 1999 Share Posted March 16, 1999 CD. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of possible combinations. This would be next to impossible to put into anything short of a book We are planning on having a "Column A" and "Column B" comparison system. Pop one tank into one slot, a second into the other, and BINGO, you know what each can do against the other. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 17, 1999 Share Posted March 17, 1999 I am SURE that SOMEBODY SOMETIME SOMEWHERE will print them ALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted March 17, 1999 Share Posted March 17, 1999 -------------------Moon said-------------- I am SURE that SOMEBODY SOMETIME SOMEWHERE will print them ALL -------------------end quote-------------- Damn straight. Sigh, I *knew* this was going to happen. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 17, 1999 Share Posted March 17, 1999 People need to be a *bit* more understanding about why we do and do not do things. We have always stated that penetration charts would be in electronic format only. The reasons are VERY simple: 1. They have to be displayed in color. 2. There are approximately five thousand different possible combinations of penetration data. This means we would have to print up a 5000 page, FULL COLOR, book. I would guess it would cost about $200 a piece if we were to do this. To expect this included free in a $45 game is ludicrous. We understand that people want everything under the sun from us. But be realistic. If we were given 10 years and $10 million, and could charge $2000 a copy, we wouldn't be able to satisfy everybody. The price alone would be subject of much abuse Keep in mind that we are making, dare I say, a GAME here. Anything that is not directly needed for the game is icing on the cake, not a requirement for us to cater to. Every single piece of data you need to make sound tactical game decisions is included in the game. Stuff like penetration charts is extra. This has to be kept in mind at all times. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted March 17, 1999 Share Posted March 17, 1999 -------Bigtime said-------- People need to be a *bit* more understanding about why we do and do not do things. We have always stated that penetration charts would be in electronic format only. The reasons are VERY simple: --------------------------- Fair enough, and I've always been ready to pay more for a thorough game( and I'm not implying that your game will not be thorough, but it today appears as slightly less than I thought it would be). If the manual will not include armour or penetration data can I purchase it separately, or at the least print it out from the game even if I am retarded enough to want the 5000 pages? ----------Bigtime said-------- 1. They have to be displayed in color. 2. There are approximately five thousand different possible combinations of penetration data. ------------------------------ As I thought that there would be when I first daw the specific combination of tank .vs. tank a long time ago A question then: how much hard data will the manual contain? Combat formulas, sighting ranges, morale charts, command radii, weapon ranges, etc? Failing the inclusion of such data in printed form (and although *I* would pay for it, I'll accept that it won't be here)can I print it out myself as it appears 'online'? -------Bigtime said-------- This means we would have to print up a 5000 page, FULL COLOR, book. I would guess it would cost about $200 a piece if we were to do this. To expect this included free in a $45 game is ludicrous. --------------------------- As long as you include the capability that will allow me to be ludicrous then I am happy. But, it is not just a $45 game. There will be, if you are successful at least an East Front, Desert and jungle addon. That's $180 US( $270 Cdn ). I know, I know 'but it's included online in the game'. Well, I appreciate your forthrightness even if I don't like what you have to say, so I guess I can live with it. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 17, 1999 Share Posted March 17, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>( and I'm not implying that your game will not be thorough, but it today appears as slightly less than I thought it would be). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Honestly, it is comments like this that get us angry. You have NO reason to expect us to do what you ask. No game ever made has included a 5000 page full color book. In fact, I have repeatedly stated penetration charts would NOT be on paper, so you should not have ever had any expectation of this sort. Your request is unreasonable and therefore should not be held against us. If you don't like the reality of it all, don't blame us. Big Time Software is going to give you the best wargame ever made. There will also be a VERY detailed manual in printed form. On the CD will be a wealth of armor stats that NO OTHER GAME has ever made available. Why isn't this enough for you? I am totally baffled as to why you have higher expectations than this. It certainly isn't fair to us... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If the manual will not include armour or penetration data can I purchase it separately, or at the least print it out from the game even if I am retarded enough to want the 5000 pages?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We are busy making a game here, not a historical reference book. We are not going to offer it in print separately for several reasons. The most important one is that very few people would want to spend several hundred dollars on such a publication, so it isn't worth our investment of either time or money. It isn't as simple as just turning on a printer and making sure there is 5000 pieces of paper available. If it were we might consider it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A question then: how much hard data will the manual contain? Combat formulas, sighting ranges, morale charts, command radii, weapon ranges, etc?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There won't be much of what you expect, I'm sure. Combat Mission has VERY few "charts and tables". The few that it does have will make no sense extracted from the code. Some data, however, will make sense and WILL be included in the manual. The reason for the lack of charts is that CM works using hundreds of small, fuzzy logic equations. Each works in harmony with the other and can not be abstracted out of context. There is NO easy way to produce this on paper, in fact it might be impossible. What we WILL do is offer some hard data coupled with behavior descriptions. Something simple, and separate, like command radii can (and will) be put down on paper. But something complex and context sensitive, like Morale, can not be stated in a chart. If you want to know how and why a unit might break, it will be explained in terms of important factors to consider, likely outcomes to certain situations, etc. But there will not be some kind of hard data chart to look at. Even if we *did* manage to produce some sort of hard data chart, it wouldn't do you any good. The quantity of support data and equations you would need to be able to make sense of it is not available to you. CM doesn't have antiquated in game displays like Incoming Fire = 45, Terrain modifier = -5, etc, Morale Bonus = +3, so a chart isn't going to be helpful. Combat Mission is 100 times more realistic than anything else out there PRECISELY because we have abandoned static charts. This is the "price" gamers must pay for having a dynamic system vs. a static one, a realistic one vs. an artificial one. The "loss" of Grognardy, static, abstract, useless data is not a loss to us. We are totally baffled as to why anybody would want to give up dynamic, realistic behavior just so they can have a Morale Table to look at. The point is to play the game, not look at charts. Any gamer that can't play, and do well at, a wargame without charts and tables isn't worth his salt as a commander and tactician. Therefore, our desire to cater to such a player is, shall we say, uh, nonexistent. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As long as you include the capability that will allow me to be ludicrous then I am happy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unnecessary, extra, rarely used features are on the very bottom of our priority list. If they get in great, otherwise no loss. We have to make the game first, then all the support information NECESSARY to play the game, and dead last are unessential elements. Most people like to ignore the fact that ANYTHING we do takes time, and that much of what people think is "easy" is in fact not. Hell, even all the "easy" stuff adds up to a big chunk of time. Having headed up QA and Produced at Sierra OnLine I can attest to this with greater credibility than probably anybody else out there. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There will be, if you are successful at least an East Front, Desert and jungle addon. That's $180 US( $270 Cdn ). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The folly of your logic is that we would need to do a 5000+ page print out for EACH GAME we do, not one for all. Different vehicles require different charts since they are all directly comparing one vehicle to another. We can't reuse "pages" from one game to the next. Hell, the Eastern Front version alone would probably be twice as big (i.e. 10,000 pages) as the Western Front one. Hmm... but maybe Charles and I have missed somthing in our 12 collective years of designing, coding, testing, and releasing wargames. If so, we welcome enlightenment. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 17, 1999 Share Posted March 17, 1999 With a 10,000 page manual, CM would become the game to the book, wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted March 17, 1999 Share Posted March 17, 1999 Modern way of making wargames. Interesting. One thing is true is that my infantry training had very little attention to data on various enemy tanks/weapons.There was training on your weapons. However, the focus was overwhelmingly on discipline,coordination and executing tactics. If that's what is developed through the game, then the game has succeeded. No Lt has charts dangling from him in the field. If the grunt is pumped,(moral,training ,leadership), enough, he's going to kill the enemy no matter what rifle the other guy has. The Lt has to make sure that grunt is in the right place at the right time. Hey, you can see how far ahead CM is ,I'm sure CM has more than enough data to make everyone happy. [This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 03-17-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 17, 1999 Share Posted March 17, 1999 I think Thomas has made the mistake we all have in the beginning (and still make ) - trying to judge CM by the standards of other wargames out there. Yes, in West Front you need a lot of charts and formulas, simply because they make up 90% of the game engine. Charts and tables are the only means for the player to get information about the battlefield action. Playing West Front without a thick manual is almost impossible - if you want to win that is . John made a good point here - no Lt. is running around the battlefield with a 10,000 page book in his pocket. CM promises to deliver much more the feel and smell of the battlefield action BECAUSE it DOESN'T need the bureaucracy of West Front... Comparing the penetration data for two vehicles quickly in the game should give you enough information for a successful game and I think it's a great idea. Although these diagrams look great because of all the colors (kinda fractal ), I absolutely agree with Steve - no need to print them. As said before, I am sure that some hardcore grognard will do it... strange breed these people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted March 17, 1999 Share Posted March 17, 1999 Keep posting your suggestions Thomas, and keep being honest to us BTS. Don't expect everything Thomas, and don't get angry BTS. It's great that people can make suggestions on this forum (some of which even get implemented!) and it's great that BTS gives us constant feedback. Disagreements will always occur, but we're all united to see Combat Mission become the best damned game in town. As an Australian Rugby commentator likes to say: "Go you good thing!" Marko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted March 18, 1999 Share Posted March 18, 1999 Hiya BigTime, I am curious as to what we can expect from the manual. My dream would be to have all weapons in the game represented dictionary style in the manual including stuuf like range, rpm's, penetration, weight, etc followed by colorful comments like "this weapon was not very popular as it had a tendency to jam". Then for vehicles their is a bunch more engine, armor, etc. Of course I would also like a good description of all the units in the game including weapon allotment. If time would be permitting a historical section about the various units you have included, maybe show the complete history of 2 divisions one from each side that will be involved in a lot of the fighting? Honestly though, having a good manual makes me feel like I'm buying quality but I will rarely use it. My game manuals tend to sit on the shelf until I'm at least a week into the game then I read them to see if I missed anything or to answer questions afterwhich they go back on the shelf. Alpha centauri has a 248 page manual with a pull out chart, very nice but do I use it? no. The more detailed your manual the better but what I'm interested in is the game itself, I'm also assuming here that I can use WWII reference materials to get a sense of how different weapons/vehicles should perform in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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