AT guns and targeting

[sttp]

I've having trouble finding some way to get my anti-tank gun crews to focus on a particular terrain area, immediately at the start of a one-minute turn, but to then, within that same one-minute turn, become much less rigid with their armor targeting, so that they'll also engage those tanks just as if I'd been able to stack a wider TARGET ARMOR ARC cone on a nearby waypoint.

 

Does that make any stinkin' sense?

 

I'll give the situation in detail -- way too much detail. (It just feels difficult to convey this somehow, though the issue comes up a fair amount....)

 

I've got my AT gun crew working under a ~120 degree wide TARGET ARMOR ARC. They're getting uncomfortably low on rounds, and they have potential targets at 10 o'clock and and 12 o'clock. At 10 o'clock there are enemy infantry and a couple of half-tracks. I don't care about those right now -- low threat, not even firing towards us, and they'll soon be suppressed anyway.

 

At 12 o'clock there are two Panzer IV's, only 200 meters out, which have been sporadically coming into view, and are sometimes "targetable". This AT gun scored some hits on these tanks just a minute or two ago, and the tank crews are now "rattled," I assume. The tanks are moving kind of erratically, stopping and surging and so on. So there would have been decent shot opportunities for my crew, and there almost surely will be again sometime soon. But... nope, my gun is pointing somewhere else, up towards those low-threat targets at 10 o'clock. All because I don't know how to tell the AI to do what I need it to do!

 

I'm guessing that the fact that these higher-threat/higher-value Panzers are only visible sporadically is what's causing the AT crew to ignore them? But I, as their supposed commander, want these Panzers to be priority. I want AT shots to be taken as quickly as possible, as soon as a tank comes up over that hill. Whether it "pops up" at 12 o'clock a mere 5 seconds from now, or becomes visible at 2 o'clock or 10 o'clock (near the half-tracks) 30 seconds from now.

 

This kind of duel between armor is often pivotal, so the importance of every second and every single degree of gun rotation is magnified.

 

What I need to tell my AT gun crew to do is this: 

1) Ignore the softer 'armor' targets at 10 o'clock, for now, and instead immediately start to focus your gun and your eyeballs towards 12 o'clock. Focus "right here" on the map, on this terrain that we know those tanks may pop up over at any second.

2) HOWEVER, AT gun crew, if those tanks instead race for the edges and come into view anywhere between your 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, sometime later in this same turn, then disregard that terrain area I HAD to make you originally focus on, and instead track these 'sometimes partially visible' tanks across your field of view, and [for the love of god] just shoot them. Or at least start rotating your gun that way.

 

It's a maddening situation.

 

For part 1, a TARGET ARMOR ARC with a pretty narrow cone towards 12 o'clock is superior, isn't it? For me it has seemed to be.

For part 2, I really need the AT crew to be flexible enough to "zoom out" and engage those tanks, basically as if I'd given them a much wider TARGET ARMOR ARC command. Even though the enemy tanks aren't close enough to force an AI override of my wishes. This common sense kind of targeting scheme (if you could call it that) is exactly what a person would naturally do in real life anyway, right? Yet I apparently cannot properly convey to my AT crew this switchover in focus that's desperately needed.

 

This targeting and timing flexibility can be achieved with infantry or tanks or any weapons which can move to a nearby spot in just a few seconds. I use a TARGET ARMOR ARC command stacked onto a short PAUSE, and then a quick move to a nearby action spot, which can get its own new targeting parameters. Even if not ideal, that's all a decent workaround most of the time. So I feel like there's probably some way to accomplish this with AT guns, too? Yet they move so slowly that the 'adjacent action spot' workaround isn't at all feasible.

 

Here are the targeting command choices, and the results:

 

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A) A general FACE command towards the tanks at 12 o'clock, relying on the 'naked' AI for target choice

Result: My AT crew keeps going after the softer armor targets at 10 o'clock... which I don't care about.

Those light half-tracks at 10 o'clock may technically be "armor," at least to the TARGET ARMOR ARC command, but still... we've got bigger fish to fry here.

 

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A narrow TARGET ARMOR ARC cone, centered at 12 o'clock

Results: This does get the AT crew hyper-focused on that 12 o'clock Panzer-rich area, immediately.

But if those tanks choose to pop up at my 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock 30 seconds into the turn (instead of popping into view at 12 o'clock just 5 seconds from now, like I expect) ... well too bad, I guess, because those Panzers are now outside that narrow targeting cone I had to create in order to get my AT gun to immediately start turning that way. (I'm using the clock positions as absolute bearings here, with north = noon, instead of as the relative bearings they typically represent.)

 

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C) A wide TARGET ARMOR ARC cone, centered at 12 o'clock

Results: The AT crew will engage the Panzers if the Panzers do become visible out towards those edges 30 seconds from now. Beautiful.

But... for now the crew keeps firing at the low-value targets located near 10 o'clock. The Panzers are only partly-visible, intermittently.

And with a scan area as wide as that arc, and with so many more potential targets to sort through, my AT crew might not even spot an enemy tank that they otherwise would've probably seen.

The AT crew will not start turning their gun to face where I really need it to face, at least not immediately... not while there are still other, constantly-visible "armor" targets within my target arc.

 

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D) A TARGET BRIEFLY command, targeting terrain that's as close as possible to the currently-hidden tanks

This also gets the crew to focus and turn immediately toward 12 o'clock. Love that.

BUT now precious ammo is being needlessly fired into the dirt. So if you only had a handful of shells left... oh well.

And after this TARGET BRIEFLY command expires, there's nothing stopping my AT crew from turning back towards those low-value targets at 10 o'clock.

Also, last (but maybe worst of all), those Panzers which are dead ahead but just a little too masked by the terrain will now be "discouraged" from moving out of the slight cover they're in... even though moving is exactly what I want them to keep doing.

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With each of those, there's a very real potential or even likelihood of way too many wasted seconds... seconds that can often be extremely, and disproportionately, costly. You can order all other assets in the game to do what's needed here, and I don't really see, in principle, any reason an AT gun crew couldn't also have the flexibility?

 

So how do you all deal with the AT gun's 'coarseness' of targeting orders? What is the procedure to make it do what troops and tanks and all can already do (short waypoint hopping, with command stacking)? Or, if no direct solution, what's the best workaround or compromise? I'm betting that someone here has dialed in on it. I've only been playing for 8 or 9 months, and there is SO MUCH I still don't know. This little targeting dilemma has come up a lot in my recent battles, so... yeah, it really was time for me to finally post, with enough detail to be useful to others. My forum searches just weren't that helpful.

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Muzzleflash1990]

I have not experienced such a situation, and i'm not sure I can visualize your situation properly, so am not sure what to say. Since we are talking about a minute here, and you say the 'soft' target will be suppressed soon, I would focus only on the tanks. I can not tell you what to do, but I can offer these tricks you might find useful, if you don't already know them:

 

- You are of course using the Armor arcs to prevent them wasting ammo on infantry.

- From your text, it seems like you believe the target arcs "focus" attention on an area. The arcs do not mean focus on this area more, and less on the outside. They mean only fire at enemies inside the arc. It will not give you spotting bonuses to units inside, or penalties to units outside. The only affect arcs might have on spotting is that the center of the arc is the facing your unit will assume when not shooting.

- Maybe this will be useful, maybe not. Remember your the two points that determine your arc can be placed at vastly different distances from the units. Perhaps this can help targeting the right areas.

- You can make a target cicle by holding down SHIFT I believe. If the 'soft' targets are far away, and the Panzers will remain relatively close, regardless of their potential 'race' across ground, this might be a solution. I'm not sure what facing your AT unit will assume if you use this. I think it will just use it's current facing.

[sttp]

Thanks Muzzleflash. Wow, so I've already learned one new thing here. Yes, I've definitely been playing as if those target arcs focussed a squad's attention to the arc's width or azimuth limits. (But ignoring its length / distance... otherwise cover arcs would not make sense.) I have NO idea why I thought the arcs affected their scan / spotting. So if the troops' awareness of their 360 degree environment is the same regardless of the target arc's width, well then that definitely changes some things. Now I'm wondering how much this misunderstanding has affected my tactics or even battle outcomes. Hmmm... guess I'll be watching a few battle replays sometime soon.

[Migo441]

@sttp, yep, that's a common misunderstanding about the cover arcs.  I think Muzzleflash's explanation was clear, but I'll add the words of Charles (aka "Brain in the Jar" / primary coder of CM):

 

The spotting is not tied directly to the arc. However spotting success is related to your facing. You spot stuff to the front much better than to the rear. And when you have a target arc, you face right down the center of it, putting the arc in your "best front angle". So you will spot things better there than outside of the arc. The arc itself isn't the driving force though -- it's the spotter's facing. But the target arc enforces facing discipline so you can be sure your men are looking right where you want them to look.  

 

So it's a stickier version of the regular Face command that also controls the area that the unit will fire into.  A lot of people are big fans of the 360 degree arc; they'll initially get the facing they want with a pie-slice arc or regular face command and then, once that's established, switch to the 360 degrees which gives the same exact control on range but reduces/eliminates the chance of losing a favorable shot when an enemy unit parks ~ 5m outside a "precise" arc.

[sttp]

Thank you. I've just read some more about all this spotting stuff, and it's a really interesting topic. So I'm going to try to "retrain" myself and create some new habits. So with that in mind...

 

For something stationary like a deployed MG team, is it the case, then, that a FACE command affects spotting in exactly the same way as a 180-degree TARGET ARC? (The arc being centered on that same heading.) Does each command get "eyes towards the center" at the same rate, and for the same ratio of troops in the squad?

 

 

I'm now pretty sure the answer to that is yes, but i'd love to be certain. I had come to prefer FACE over 180-degree TARGET ARCs, and always tried to make my target arcs as narrow as possible, and I'm now reconsidering all these kinds of issues. I do (at least!) understand that the two commands have very different effects for troops that are on the move -- the relative vs fixed/absolute thing -- and that a target arc adds the firing restrictions.

[Muzzleflash1990]

Yes, facing and 180 degree targets arcs are equivalent, except one minor detail. Facing sets direction, which influences, spotting. Target arcs set both facing and limits fire to the arc. The minor detail is that, while units with a 180 degree will not shoot at targets spotted behind them, units with a facing might.

[womble]

IME, "Face" is also a less "sticky" command. Troops, and especially vehicles, will ignore your Face orders more readily than they will ignore a TA setting their facing. I imagine that this is because Face simply isn't a persistent command, but a one-time "orient yourselves this way" command, which the TacAI will overwrite if it encounters targets that need the Facing to change.