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OT-China 2015 V-Day Parade


db_zero

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A while back I watched the Russian V-Day parade and today saw China V-Day parade. Have to say both are fun to watch. You don't see anything like it in the West. Guess it would be considered inappropriate in Western societies.

 

I think for the first time the Nationalists were allowed to take part, which was controversial in Taiwan. I read that many believe the Communist are taking credit for someting they really didn't have a big role in, but when you're the one in power you make the rules and write the history books.

 

Lots of hardware that is unknown to me. I guess if BF ever does go to Asia, whoever has to come up with the OOB will have their work cut out for them.

Edited by db_zero
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No it couldn't, unless BFC releases all its coding for CM2x games, and this won't obviously happen.

 

Yes, some people already opened a Pandora's vase with some 3d objects, but considering the implications of AI programming, force tables construction and coding of each and every weapon etc. it is impossible to foresee a positive mod such as that of the dymensions of a new game. 

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Maybe if BF releases a mod SDK we could see some very interesting mods.

 

As much as I would like to see more content I really hope the do *not* do that.  Last thing we need is a fractured and forked community with fantasy weapons running around (perhaps that speaks to my fear of silly things being created rather than a justifiable fear).

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As much as I would like to see more content I really hope the do *not* do that. Last thing we need is a fractured and forked community with fantasy weapons running around (perhaps that speaks to my fear of silly things being created rather than a justifiable fear).

Plus BFC'S current plate is very full with upcoming modules, the 4.0 engine, and CMSF. That's a lot of work for practically a reinforced fireteam sized company.

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No it couldn't, unless BFC releases all its coding for CM2x games, and this won't obviously happen.

 

Yes, some people already opened a Pandora's vase with some 3d objects, but considering the implications of AI programming, force tables construction and coding of each and every weapon etc. it is impossible to foresee a positive mod such as that of the dymensions of a new game. 

 

I meant this "It would require a development team and, in conclusion, for the modders it would be like making a complete video game". You said it almost as if large modding projects are an impossibility. A good team of modders can accomplish alot.

 

The lack of modability of CM I am familiar with..

Edited by Stagler
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db_zero,

 

If you've got a tasty link to this event, please post it! As for the contributions of the Nationalist and Communist Chinese forces in the war against Japan, there is an excellent case to be made, via a slew of metrics, that it was substantial. Here's a look at the CBI (China-Burma-India) Theater, which should help put a great deal into context for you. 

 
Regards,
 
John Kettler
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You can go to youtube and find the parade.

 

Of interest to me and many others is the DF-21 system.Designed as a hypersonic, very long range system designed to target naval battle groups-expecially carriers. You can build hundreds for the cost of a single carrier. The thought of dozens if not hundreds being volley fired at a carrier battle group from thousands of miles away is something that concerns many.

 

Even if its not highly effective-targeting fast moving naval battlegroups is not an easy equation to solve the mere threat has to be taken into account.

 

The designations on the systems on parade were clearly stenciled in english. China was obviously sending a message to the west.

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db_zero,

 

The Dong Feng 21D, which may or may not really be the big deal we hear about,  is essentially a Russian weapon which never, to my knowledge, went operational. It isn't a cruise missile but a full-on ballistic missile with terminal guidance, something like the Iskander. I can say, per a then-colleague, senior to me and also doing Fleet Air Defense, at Hughes Missile Systems Group (was there myself from mid February 1978- early September 1984) with known Agency connection (I met the guy's sponsor at CIA HQ; I shall not reveal the name of my former colleague because he may still be active and his ID may fall under the rubric of the Intelligence Identities Act; ditto his sponsor), that the US was aware of the system at least before 1984, and the anticarrier ballistic missile was part of a fully integrated carrier killing system. China has it because after the SU collapsed, there were lots of starving scientists, engineers and technicians in Russia, people whose advanced plans, know how, technical acumen and expertise China was all too happy to obtain. China is all about face, and looking fierce is deemed to enhance it, both internally and externally. As the article at the link shows, China doesn't have to have an operational system in order to gain great benefit from appearing to have it. As such, the situation is roughly analogous to the constraining effect the never publicly acknowledged, but very much real, Israeli nuclear force has on the behavior of major foes. China seeks to scare the US Navy out of its perceived area of influence. This is for political, economic and military reasons. As for the last, China is highly vulnerable to US carrier and Tomahawk strikes because much of population and industry is located along the coast. 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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The world has changed since the 70's 80's to which you refer to. Technology has advanced and the microchip and technology in general has become a commodity item these days. As for China being vulnerable to US carrier and Tomahawk strikes along the coast, you don't think they know that?

 

Western Intelligence was all to ready to dismiss the Japanese before 1941. They (the Japanese) couldn't see well, shoot straight and their rice paper aircraft would be no match for Western aircraft or the west in general. December 7th changed that and months afterward a little known Japanese aircraft the Zero flown by superbly trained airmen shocked the West.

 

Compairing the former Soviet Union and China is a mistake and umm in 1978-1984 the microchip was still in its infancy. We're talking 8086 technology back in those days. The heart of a missile system is the microchip and the period you're referring to was a long time ago. Microchips and the art of programming has advanced light years since then, so what was difficult if not impossible to solve back then is hardly rocket science these days and the west is more than happy to sell the technology to anyone who has the money these days, and countries are more than happy to steal or reverse engineer what they can't buy,

 

Aside from the cyber break ins, the recent devaluation of the yuan has caused massive disruptions to stock markets. The open border policies of the US and Europe has pretty much assured that many institutions have already been penetrated. The asymetric threat is very real.

 

If China hasn't solved the issues that prevented the 1970's-80s' Russian system the DF-21 is based on, there is little doubt they are very close to solving it-if they haven't done so already. Its been 30 years since the period you referred to.These days you can buy 8 core multithreading processors for a few hundred bucks that can process billions of calculations a second that was simply not available back in the 70's and 80's. Microchips back then were enourmously expensive and pretty rare

 

Many foreign engineeers have been educated and trained in Western universities.

 

To paraphrase a presidential canidate-foreign governments are indeed alot smarter and cunning than the idiots running our shop.  In any case I would not go about dismissing or underestimating our advesaries. Just look at ISIS-an entity that was dismissed as the JV team not to long ago.

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db_zero,

 

I have no idea how you got the impression I was dismissing the Chinese. I was seeking to explain where the core concept and technologies originated, and I'm well aware that the technology of electronics in general and computer chips in particular has made tremendous advancements, bringing with it all sorts of new possibilities and capabilities. The Chinese are quite creative in their own right and have done a terrific job of both en masse systematically learning at the finest US S&T institutions and in penetrating all sorts of sensitive military industrial enterprises. When I was in the business, from a major weapon technology standpoint, China was a joke. Its most powerful aircraft was a licensed Tu-16 BADGER copy called the H-6, there were two, I think, indigenous Chinese radar systems, the PLAN was farcical, and the most advanced fighter was the MiG-21 FISHBED export model and some sort of no big deal domestic fighter. ISTR the SAMs consisted mainly of SA-2 GUIDELINE/V750 Dvina export models and maybe something akin to SA-N1 (naval version of the SA-1 GOA/s 125 Pechora). Oh, how times have changed!

 

China now has a lot of advanced Russian hardware, a host of capable indigenous weapons of all sorts, a huge underground ballistic missile force. It is turning out modern warships at quite a clip and has an expanding and increasingly high tech air force getting scarier by the day. An air force which is increasingly going underground, China reportedly has the most powerful computer on the planet, is going like gangbusters on theoretical and applied science, in advanced tech development and possesses an ever growing space capability. China has not only its own extensive electronics capabilities but has had access to most of the best out there. Period.

 

But when it's all said and done, China remains China. Here for millennia. It looks at the world and its place in it in terms utterly alien to us.  It very much involves face, and if you don't believe me, just look at the whole business with the territorial claims, the fortification of natural and manmade bases in the China Sea. China is flexing its muscles clear to the Philippines, yet bridles over being upbraided for very unChinese behavior. Mao would be appalled, for he warned "never to seek hegemony," yet that's exactly what China seems to be doing these days--while saying it isn't. Throwing its weight around on one hand, yet digging in on the other. The problem just about anyone has in confronting China is that China is patient. China, unless it feels threatened,  is typically quite conservative in its whole approach to interacting with the world. It plays the long game and is prepared to wait decades if need be to achieve its goals.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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John,

It sounded like you were completely dismissing the DF-21 based on your experience in 1984.

The US Navy doesn’t share in that assessment-There is a reason why warships have a big emphasis on ballistic missile defense systems.

I don't think China wants a direct confrontation with the US or west. They are taking a longer term indirect approach to accent to dominance.

Behind the scenes, however there is a serious war going on. In the Silicon Valley and other high tech regions a cat and mouse game is going on between US counter intel and foreign agents stealing US technology and secrets.

The recent hack of government personnel records was linked to foreign nationals and sympathizers who had access to unsecured databases. Right now we really don't have control of our borders and screening and vetting the vast numbers is a very daunting task and from the look and sound of it, not a priority for the current leadership.

A couple of weeks ago there were reports that sanctions were being considered against China for recent cyber break-in's. Then at the same time suddenly without any warning China devaluated the Yuan causing massive disruptions to other Asian, US and European equity markets.  

The official narrative in the financial media was this was in response to the crash of the Chinese stock market and slowing economic conditions in China. That may and probably is true, but on the other hand the state controlled devaluation could also serve a dual purpose-sending a message to the West to back off.

Imposing economic sanctions will hurt you as much as it will us.

In attendance at the Chinese VJ Parade-Putin from Russia. Absent-any high ranking US and most European official. There is a message in that.
 

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db_zero,

 

Understood. After looking at some all but useless 360 Panorama vids on RT's site,  I found some actual usable ones on another part of it, though I've not yet had a chance to watch them. Love the blue and white digicam! India has now been usurped on the cool missile camouflage paint scheme front. Gorgeous, but a plastic model builder's nightmare! Is see what you mean regarding sending a message on the (new, improved, longer range and generally nastier) Dong Feng missile canisters. Also, I note with great interest the Gepardesque Chinese flak tank, which seems not to have any SAM capability. ACQ radar looks like something very much along the lines of what SA-15/Tor has, while the TTR very much favors the Gepard design esthetic.

 

https://www.rt.com/news/314176-china-military-parade-wwii/ 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

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I remember watching that...seems like those Chinese tankers watched Dukes of Hazard or something.

 

On more serious note, I thought it was a tad bit disturbing that the Chinese government sponsored a video that portrayed the destruction of an irrefutably American carrier battle group, along with the destruction of irrefutably American aircraft (F-22s and F-35s). Along with the invasion of what I guess would be Guam or Okinawa. I thought it...amusing at how easily China believe it could eliminate our forces. Just press a button, sink 7th Fleet, shoot down some silly F-35s, and land on Guam and...and...and I guess they didn't think about what would happen next.

Edited by Currahee150
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I remember watching that...seems like those Chinese tankers watched Dukes of Hazard or something.

On more serious note, I thought it was a tad bit disturbing that the Chinese government sponsored a video that portrayed the destruction of an irrefutably American carrier battle group, along with the destruction of irrefutably American aircraft (F-22s and F-35s). Along with the invasion of what I guess would be Guam or Okinawa. I thought it...amusing at how easily China believe it could eliminate our forces. Just press a button, sink 7th Fleet, shoot down some silly F-35s, and land on Guam and...and...and I guess they didn't think about what would happen next.

That is why I posted it. There is no way a Chinese corporation made and published such a video without the approval of the Chinese government. Hell, most owners of these companies are PLA generals and all are certainly communist party members.

The scarey thing is the psychological imprint videos like this make on young and/ignorant Chinese. The whole glorious one-way offensive is titled "island re-taking?" And like you say, the enemy is obviously the USA. What island did the US take from China in the first place? Propaganda exists in every country (and yes I love my USMC recruiting commercials!) but this type of propaganda is very specific, much like radical Islamic programs for kids produced by Iran, promoting things like the glory of being a suicide bomber against Israel.

It's also like watching a modern version of a Pearl Harbor movie. You would think the Chinese would want to avoid that perception.

Edited by Imperial Grunt
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CM: Taiwan!

Chinese forces vs US and Aussies!

 Bah, not our problem mate. Direct trade with China accounts for 5.5% of our total GDP and 23% of our total trade. 

Couldn't afford to go to war no matter how much we're *rude description of a close sexual act probably illegal in most civilised countries as a metaphor for alliance* in America's *Just don't ask redacted for sanity* 

Besides. "murica's piss is too weak. 

Side note- What of the 'impressionable young minds' of the Young American bombarded by video games depicting the invasion of America by the Russians, Terrorists, CHinese, and whoever else is flavour-of-the-month? Just as highly specific as this is I would think. And they're not in control anyways. 

If you like I could run this by some family that can read Chinese and get their read on it, but I suspect all it is is a fancy Chinese equivalent of 'Be all You Can Be! Bring Freedom with a gun!' or whatever. Certainly not worth getting hyped up over. 

Unless it really is a guerilla marketing scheme for the next combat mission game? ;) 

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Foxtrot Alpha analyzed it.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-is-the-insane-video-china-just-put-out-showing-it-1728674129

Didn't say anything about the Chinese equivalent of 'Be all you can be!'. More like "Awesome V-Day celebration video showing how we can still crush the American capitalists!"

 

On another note, ok yeah, Call of Duty and Battlefield all have China, Russia, and terrorists as their antagonists to gun down in doves with you M4A1 SOPMOD. But you know what the big difference is between those and this Chinese video? They aren't government sponsored. Call of Duty MW2 wasn't spun by the US Gov't as how to claim victory over the Russian invaders by detonating a nuke over DC. The Chinese video, well, is. Ok, not by detonating a nuke, but by showing how to claim victory over the evil USA with our undefeatable DF-21s. Even US gov't sponsored commercial, either have no direct combat (like the US Army and US Navy ), or have the Marines landing on some random beachhead. No Aramta's or Su-33s with a red star are shown being exploded by M1s and F-22s, and the Liangyang (or however the hell you spell it) isn't depicted as being gutted by the USS Virginia. They just show soldier doing their job - granted in a albeit, uh, glamorous fashion with out the drill sergeant screaming in your ear at 0235 in the morning, or having to stand in the House of Tears with your gas mask off - but the recruiting videos remain decidedly neutral.

When I watched that video, it sent chills down my spine. Why? If the Chinese government is depicting the US as the bad guys to kick out of Pacific, then the Chinese public may very well decide that that's what they want to happen - regardless of what the actual Chinese government wants to do.

 

 

It's also like watching a modern version of a Pearl Harbor movie. You would think the Chinese would want to avoid that perception.

 

The scary thing is, its a Pearl Harbor that hasn't happened yet...

 

Just my 2 cent. I'm probably overreacting a bit - its just a video - but still, we live in interesting times.

Edited by Currahee150
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When you compare China with the US or Europe, you sense the vast contrast. In China the people in general believe China is rising and the new century is their century. In America and Europe you sense a lot of self loathing and doubt.

 

All is not well in China however. They need a 7+ percent growth rate or the fear is possible discontent. The Army takes an oath to the Communist party. If there is unrest in China the Army and security forces will crush and dissent IMO.

 

You have a number of bubbles in China-The commodity bubble, housing/commercial building bubble and a stock market bubble.

 

The West has overbuilt capacity. The idea was that Chinas market was so huge and demand for raw commodities so great. Now that the Chinese economy has slowed down, demand has tapered out and the effects are being felt in the west. Share prices of once high flying multinationals catering to China have plummeted as have commodity prices.

 

If the Chinese PMI continues to show contraction things could get outright nasty. With the vast capital spent on projects and infrastructure-in the west to supply the supposedly insatiable and unstoppable Chinese demand may have to be shut down. Many believe the use of capital in this manner was a vast misallocation and could have major deflationary consequences.

 

We’ll know in the next couple of months as more data comes out. If China does slow down dramatically we’ll feel it. Wouldn’t be surprised if it send us into a recession. It sure does feel like the 7 year bull market run has given way to a bear market and equity markets are sending signals of recession.

 

Right now across the globe, America, Europe and Asia are engaged in a currency war-devaluating their national currencies to try and gain market share.

 

Is China like America was in the early 1900’s a superpower in the making waiting to ascend to number 1? IDK, but I would wager the average Chinese citizen on the street believes it.

Edited by db_zero
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Going back from the deep politico-military-media analyses to the parade per se, one of the things which struck me immediately was the extreme precision of everything the Chinese soldiers did. I used to think the Russian Victory Day Parade was the gold standard for military marching, but the soldiers in China's VJ Day Parade are in a league unto themselves. Were precision marching the metric of military success, the US and Russia would be doomed!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler 

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ya. better cgi than the NK NYC attack vid. same bs. theyre idiots. thatd be the biggest mistake theyd ever make and the end of their regime and itd probably set the country back... to the stone age. many nations have made the mistake of attacking the US. Every single one has paid dearly. The only wars the US 'lost' werent lost in the Nazi or Ww2 Japanese sense and were on the other side of the world because the US pulled out. A Pearl Harbor esque attack would be viewed akin to 9/11 and Im sure any Americans here who are old enough remember that united our country more than any event since WW2 and spurred two wars and enraged the US populace. To this day people are being killed in Afghanistan and Pakistan and the ME (and rightfully so imo) because of Al Qaedas cowardly attacks on that day.

Edited by Sublime
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