Opinion on Thread locking

[Lacroix]

i just want to say that i don't share your opinion that its ok to share your views/standings/opinions/decisions  on certain things and then lock the thread so that your word is last. i don't belive in publicity ,it doesnt make you 1% bigger

 

also i don't really experience your thread locking as something like ' i am owner of this place and i do what i want, i know i am right and i dont have time/nerves to argue with people who have no idea what they are talking about'

 

sure,you don't think my opinion is relevant,nor i ask for it to be relevant to you,but i wont comply,thats the bottom line

its not like we are wild ,rude,arugmentless creatures

 

wont happen, i protest, and i 'd rather be banned than comply with your policies

 

 

Sebastian Lacroix is Not approving

 

 

[Wiggum15]

I have no problem with locking threads but i too dont like the "i have the last word" thing...

I dont know, maybe the BFC forums are a place where everyone is happy.

Take for example the DayZ forums (a game i play). There are hard discussions about which way the game should evolve and if the devs are fast enough fixing bugs and getting the game to Bata status.

Here this is not possible.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Wiggum15

[ZPB II]

Plenty of people manage to criticize the game without being passive-aggressive.

[Bulletpoint]

I think there might a generational thing to this as well. BattleFront seem to develop their games in the traditional top-down way, where the designers work on something in a closed off garage, while we wait patiently to see what they will bring out next. Then they hope that we will buy it. And probably we will. So far, their business model seems to have worked for them.

 

But in many companies, modern game development has changed. Lots of small developers now involve the community while they build the game, taking in their feedback, having active dialogue with them, even staging polls to ask what the fans feel is the most important things to improve/add. While BF does do a bit of this, there does seem to be a difference. Younger gamers, used to be seen as equals, might come across very spoiled in the traditional point of view.

 

I'm not telling BF what to do, I just think it's interesting. And I'm not proposing that developers should just follow every whim of their fans either.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[womble]

No forum I've ever been a member of has tolerated public discussion of locked threads...

[Thewood1]

I've seen some matrix forums have discussions about locked threads.  I depends on the developer and mod.

[MikeyD]

Sometimes discussions just go off on a tangent and its like how many times can the same battle get fought over and over and over? Okay, you don't like playing games where the fighters aren't all speaking English (or whatever the complaint). Its been stated. Time to move on.

 

If the topic is current events in Ukraine - well, that's Steve's baby. That's an entirely different thing than unruly forum behavior. I know of no one this side of the State Department that has been following that story so closely for so long. There's an internal topic thread on that going back a year and a half wth more than 5,000 postings, last updated just a couple hours ago. Mis(dis)information on that particular topic drives Steve to distraction. Touch the third rail at your peril.

Edited July 8, 2015 by MikeyD

[Jargotn]

This is BFCs forum. They can do whatever they want with it, and I respect that. Their house, their rules.

 

I'd love to have a forum where nobody needs to be the "bad guy" and lock threads, or ban people. But sometimes a discussion won't lead to anything but anger, and if that's the case I'd rather have somebody tell everyone to calm down by locking the thread, instead of watching everyone shouting. We aren't perfect, and sometimes things will go out of hand. That's normal, but it can also be a extremely unpleasant experience for everyone involved.

 

And, I have to disagree, sometimes we ARE wild "rude,arugmentless creatures". That's perfetly normal. But it's also, as I said above, extremely unpleasant. There are enough places on the internet where you get shouted at. I don't need that here, too.

 

But I also do see your point. Hearing an argument, no matter how good or reasonable it is, and being unable to respond to it, no matter how good the reason,  is something nobody likes. But someone has to do the last post. So, how can we change behaviour, to give everybody the best forum-experience?

 

I'd say that the last post before lock shouldn't be an argument, but a simple "this discussion leads to nothing" or "everything that has been said or will be said was said before, no reason to kick dead horses"-post. Of course, after such a post, every participant has to accept that everybody, not just they, were told to calm down. No injustice and no censorship, everybody shuts up.

 

Or, you could just do whatever you want.

 

Tua casa, tue regole.

[kohlenklau]

I had some curiosity and went to look at these DayZ forums. Never heard of the game. I am 50 and listen to old music too. Still have my Columbia Music club 1 cent CD's.

Anyway, I had to read about this game. in development. In alpha still I guess. Since about 2012. Huge sales as the so called early access deal. 175,000 copies?

Big moola. Hired another development team of 25 people. Maybe one is salary to deal with the forums. The head dude is Dean Hall and I searched that forum and saw no posts by him or anything with DHall or Hall. maybe I just didn't find it. 

 

I did find a locked thread. It was a developer appreciation thread that melted down into an argument.

 

They use "fanboy" and "fanbois" over there as an insult. pretty regularly it seems.

 

I am obviously from a very different world than those type folks. I hope CM gets better. But to express it outside the manner that i would in turn like to be treated in, that is not my style.

 

I don't know what to say. We gotta call a spade a spade here. Some of these recurring folks just are being what they are. 

 

Anyway, that is my 5 cent report. 

[SgtHatred]

Sometimes discussions just go off on a tangent and its like how many times can the same battle get fought over and over and over? Okay, you don't like playing games where the fighters aren't all speaking English (or whatever the complaint). Its been stated. Time to move on.

 

If the topic is current events in Ukraine - well, that's Steve's baby. That's an entirely different thing than unruly forum behavior. I know of no one this side of the State Department that has been following that story so closely for so long. There's an internal topic thread on that going back a year and a half wth more than 5,000 postings, last updated just a couple hours ago. Mis(dis)information on that particular topic drives Steve to distraction. Touch the third rail at your peril.

 

It may be old news for you, but not everyone has 18000 posts on an internet forum.

[Battlefront.com]

i just want to say that i don't share your opinion that its ok to share your views/standings/opinions/decisions  on certain things and then lock the thread so that your word is last. i don't belive in publicity ,it doesnt make you 1% bigger

Someone has to have the last word. Locking up a thread without explanation is not only rude, but it's disrespectful of the community. It's not the way things go here. And as you are proving all too well, there is no such thing as a "last word" on the internet.

 

also i don't really experience your thread locking as something like ' i am owner of this place and i do what i want, i know i am right and i dont have time/nerves to argue with people who have no idea what they are talking about'

I am the owner of this place and I do have the right to decide how conversations do or do not go on this Forum. There is a culture here and it's been established over a period of 17 years. What makes you so important that we should change everything to suit your personal viewpoint?

sure,you don't think my opinion is relevant,nor i ask for it to be relevant to you,but i wont comply,thats the bottom line

its not like we are wild ,rude,arugmentless creatures

Ooooo really? Besides your obvious "f you!" attitude expressed here, did you or did you not get a warning because you called people disagreeing with you disparaging names, such as "evil"?

wont happen, i protest, and i 'd rather be banned than comply with your policies

You can play the martyr card if you want, but it won't change how we moderate things here. What we've done for the last 17 years has worked very well.

Steve

[Lacroix]

i dont ask you to change or this forum to change , i just wont comply,that was the point of the thread. i said that already, i know i am noone here and i dont ask for anything

 

also, i wasnt rude towards anyone, that 'evil' thing is laughable,it was more of a gentle provocation

[Battlefront.com]

I think there might a generational thing to this as well. BattleFront seem to develop their games in the traditional top-down way, where the designers work on something in a closed off garage, while we wait patiently to see what they will bring out next. Then they hope that we will buy it. And probably we will. So far, their business model seems to have worked for them.

Not quite Most of what we come up with has been discussed here at some point. We use those discussions to gauge importance and priority. We then take the impossibly long list of good ideas and pick and choose between them with engineering and costs factored in. That's the part of the discussion customers are not privy to because, frankly, nobody else is qualified to have such discussions. Engineering by consensus is a horrible way to go. Usually catastrophic failure is the result.

 

But in many companies, modern game development has changed. Lots of small developers now involve the community while they build the game, taking in their feedback, having active dialogue with them, even staging polls to ask what the fans feel is the most important things to improve/add. While BF does do a bit of this, there does seem to be a difference. Younger gamers, used to be seen as equals, might come across very spoiled in the traditional point of view.

That is, basically, what we do. The difference is we do not pretend that the customer knows best and/or they have as much to loose if they are wrong as we do. That means the customer's direct input has an important, but limited, place in the grand scheme of things. Many of these small developers don't yet understand that too much input is bad. Tell you what... come back in 17 years and tell me how many of those developers are still around. My guess is not many.

For you old timers, you'll remember that I often cite a Simpsons episode when we have such discussions (which we've had countless times, BTW). That episode is this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh_Brother,_Where_Art_Thou%3F

Homer is given entirely free rein in the design, but is at first too timid to voice an opinion, as Herb's designers begin to design the car with their own ideas in mind. When Herb gets word of this, he gives Homer a pep talk that sends him back to the designers determined to build the car with all sorts of weird effects like bubble domes, tail fins and several horns that play "La Cucaracha". At the unveiling of the new car, Herb is horrified to find that the car is a badly-designed and hideously styled monstrosity that costs US$82,000, leaving Powell Motors bankrupt and out of business, while Herb's mansion is foreclosed and he loses everything he ever worked for.

You guys are a fantastic source for ideas, but if we left things in the hands of people like Wiggum15 we'd be out of business for sure. If he wasn't so aggressive and pushy about is views, and so absolutely dismissive and condescending about those of other people, we'd not be having this discussion at all.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

i dont ask you to change or this forum to change , i just wont comply,that was the point of the thread. i said that already, i know i am noone here and i dont ask for anything

And you don't find this sort of attitude... counter productive? Are you here to talk about the game or are you here to deliberately irritate those who are?

 

also, i wasnt rude towards anyone, that 'evil' thing is laughable,it was more of a gentle provocation

Yet more example of you "not getting it".

So do you want me to ban your account preemptively, or do you wish to go out in a "blaze of glory"? Personally, I would prefer you stayed and instead adjusted your attitude but I'm not the boss of you and therefore it's up to you.

Steve

[Stagler]

This is what? The fourth time a thread about change has cropped up in 6 months? Maybe they are popping up for a reason.

[Wiggum15]

You always say "be nice and we can have a discussion"...

But how "nice" can you be if you want to criticize something ?

After every suggestion for change the first thing you hear is either:

- no its fine you are irrational

or

- will never happen they are a small team

Them you say "hey but the BFC marketing suggests this is a ->new<- game so whats ->new<- about it except textures and scenarios"

Then it goes one downwards from there people are calling you aggresive aor wish you would die in russia (actually happened)...

Im done with it, you cant criticize anything about the state of the engine or BFC's business model without getting your thread locked.

And by the way i dont see all those threads criticizing CMx2 or BFC, they are non existent. Only "polite" bug reports and happiness.

I dont know how much longer you can ride the CMx2 train without significant change, i just hope you dont wait till its to late.

I was always a BFC and CM fan...

Edited July 8, 2015 by Wiggum15

[Lacroix]

And you don't find this sort of attitude... counter productive? Are you here to talk about the game or are you here to deliberately irritate those who are?

 

Yet more example of you "not getting it".

So do you want me to ban your account preemptively, or do you wish to go out in a "blaze of glory"? Personally, I would prefer you stayed and instead adjusted your attitude but I'm not the boss of you and therefore it's up to you.

Steve

i said what i think,i wont respond to this thread anymore. you can do as you wish

[Battlefront.com]

This is what? The fourth time a thread about change has cropped up in 6 months? Maybe they are popping up for a reason.

 

Sure, there's a reason for everything. And a couple in a 6 month period is actually slow There's been times when 4 a day was more the norm.

Discussions like this are like a wheel. They always come around again. And again. And again. And again.

 

You always say "be nice and we can have a discussion"...

But how "nice" can you be if you want to criticize something ?

Oddly enough, thousands of people have figured this out without difficulty. You are having difficulty, but you still can learn if you want to.

 

After every suggestion for change the first thing you hear is either:

- no its fine you are irrational

or

- will never happen they are a small team

Not every suggestion. Just the ones that are irrational and/or impossible for us to implement. You seem to have a knack for focusing on those sorts of suggestions, therefore you receive these sorts of responses more frequently than others do. It's a logical cause/effect relationship.

 

Them you say "hey but the BFC marketing suggests this is a ->new<- game so whats ->new<- about it except textures and scenarios"

Then it goes one downwards from there people are calling you aggresive aor wish you would die in russia (actually happened)...

Im done with it, you cant criticize anything about the state of the engine or BFC's business model without getting your thread locked.

Yup, this Forum is full of locked threads! Nobody gets to discuss anything, especially not discussing locked threads!

 

And by the way i dont see all those threads criticizing CMx2 or BFC, they are non existent. Only "polite" bug reports and happiness.

You are obviously not looking very hard. Or very honestly either.

 

I dont know how much longer you can ride the CMx2 train without significant change, i just hope you dont wait till its to late.

I was always a BFC and CM fan...

 

You can be a fan and want changes/improvements. I'd bet that describes nearly 100% of our customer base. It certainly describes just about everybody on this Forum. Somehow they find a way of expressing themselves without being abusive and disrespectful towards others, not to mention us. If you put your mind to it, perhaps you can as well.

 

i said what i think,i wont respond to this thread anymore. you can do as you wish

I never ban people unless they clearly cross the line (more than once, usually) or explicitly ask me to. Since you have done neither, you are not being banned.

Steve

[Jargotn]

You always say "be nice and we can have a discussion"...

But how "nice" can you be if you want to criticize something ?

I believe that politeness is key for good critiscism.

The first thing to do is to never, never attack your opponent directly. Always remember: Engage the problem, not the opponent. Else you won't be able to move forward.

 

Second: Make the other person feel understood. If you say "I believe that this and that needs improvements" and somebody else says "nope", first follow point one (don't attack) and then show them that you are on their side: IN this case, you both want to get the best out of a game. Don't say "You are a fanboy", or "F****** old breed", say "I can see where you are coming from, and, while I agree with some of your points, I do believe that further clarification is needed, so that you can understand mine". Be constructive.

 

Third: Be careful how you open up an issue. If you say "This is s***, this should change!" you'll immediately see the answers you got: If you attack something others will defend it. Instead, try to show everybody what your motivation is, and why you believe your way is better.. "I'm seeing other games with features I believe might improve the experience for everybody. I know that my position might be controversial, please help me make the game better."

 

Also, note how you should try to, immediately, inlude the people you are talking to. They can help you, you can help them. You aren't engaging each other, but you are tackling the problem. Include them, and ask them to include themselves!

 

And, fourth: Don't hunker down in your position. The moment oyu hunker down is the moment you feel that everybody attacking your position is attacking you and you start attacking them. Take a safe distance from all of your arguments. And, if you realise that you are wrong, take a step back. You aren't loosing if you got the best result for everybody!

 

Im done with it, you cant criticize anything about the state of the engine or BFC's business model without getting your thread locked.

And by the way i dont see all those threads criticizing CMx2 or BFC, they are non existent. Only "polite" bug reports and happiness.

Criticism doesn't equal attacking something. You can criticize in a polite way. I have never seen something good coming out of anything that startes with "your s*** is s***." While having a discussion in of itself can be fun, I don't think that's your goal here.

 

aor wish you would die in russia (actually happened)...

Techincally not true, atleast if you are refering to the comment I have in mind.

 

If you really are an infantryman hopefully Germany will invade Russia again. Then we wont have to listen to you complain about CM, your squaddies can hear you complain about lugging ammo.

Nothing about death. Just about complaining somewhere else. But please don't misunderstand me, I do not agree with this statement.

[Mord]

Martyrs...in the old days you burned them and that was that....in the age of the internet the victim-hood is eternal.

 

 

 

Mord.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Mord

[cool breeze]

I believe that politeness is key for good critiscism.

The first thing to do is to never, never attack your opponent directly. Always remember: Engage the problem, not the opponent. Else you won't be able to move forward.

 

Second: Make the other person feel understood. If you say "I believe that this and that needs improvements" and somebody else says "nope", first follow point one (don't attack) and then show them that you are on their side: IN this case, you both want to get the best out of a game. Don't say "You are a fanboy", or "F****** old breed", say "I can see where you are coming from, and, while I agree with some of your points, I do believe that further clarification is needed, so that you can understand mine". Be constructive.

 

Third: Be careful how you open up an issue. If you say "This is s***, this should change!" you'll immediately see the answers you got: If you attack something others will defend it. Instead, try to show everybody what your motivation is, and why you believe your way is better.. "I'm seeing other games with features I believe might improve the experience for everybody. I know that my position might be controversial, please help me make the game better."

 

Also, note how you should try to, immediately, inlude the people you are talking to. They can help you, you can help them. You aren't engaging each other, but you are tackling the problem. Include them, and ask them to include themselves!

 

And, fourth: Don't hunker down in your position. The moment oyu hunker down is the moment you feel that everybody attacking your position is attacking you and you start attacking them. Take a safe distance from all of your arguments. And, if you realise that you are wrong, take a step back. You aren't loosing if you got the best result for everybody!

 

Criticism doesn't equal attacking something. You can criticize in a polite way. I have never seen something good coming out of anything that startes with "your s*** is s***." While having a discussion in of itself can be fun, I don't think that's your goal here.

 

Techincally not true, atleast if you are refering to the comment I have in mind.

 

Nothing about death. Just about complaining somewhere else. But please don't misunderstand me, I do not agree with this statement.

Dang Jargon that was so deep and good I want to give it TWO thumbs up.  It's like I just climbed a mountain to meet a guru and heard the words of wisdom.  Although I gotta admit I kinda already knew those particular things (not that I follow them   Anywho great post and appropriately positioned if you catch my drift.

 

And Mord I'd give you 2 thumbs ups too because that cracked me up hard was hilarious. 

 

Wisdom comes with time.  I would really like it if everyone would update their profile with their age, might be interesting what kind of patterns we would find.  I'm going to update mine if it's not already.

[Aurelius]

Well, I don't recall any of them attacking anyone personally or saying that a game is utter s***t. In fact, the opposite side did everything in their power to present their (Lacroix and Wigum) argument as "lolz u suck at making gaems".

[Lacroix]

Martyrs...in the old days you burned them and that was that....in the age of the internet the victim-hood is eternal.

 

 

 

Mord.

i am not martyr. made it clear. Re read

[Holien]

Hmmm mind reading again are we? He made a statement, it did not say it was about you.

[Crinius]

i just want to say that i don't share your opinion that its ok to share your views/standings/opinions/decisions  on certain things and then lock the thread so that your word is last. i don't belive in publicity ,it doesnt make you 1% bigger

 

also i don't really experience your thread locking as something like ' i am owner of this place and i do what i want, i know i am right and i dont have time/nerves to argue with people who have no idea what they are talking about'

 

sure,you don't think my opinion is relevant,nor i ask for it to be relevant to you,but i wont comply,thats the bottom line

its not like we are wild ,rude,arugmentless creatures

 

wont happen, i protest, and i 'd rather be banned than comply with your policies

 

 

Sebastian Lacroix is Not approving

 

 

 

Amen

Edited July 9, 2015 by Crinius