Helping BTS to profit and finish CM2 faster

[killmore]

Here is an idea:

BTS complained that for CM2 they have to make huge amount of German/Russian 3D vehicles models. How about this:

1) BTS will release list of vehicles it needs

2) BTS will provide something for people to model vehicles.

3) People will create vehicles models themselves.

4) Only best looking models make it into the game.

5) BTS gives 1 cent per sold game to the person who constructed the one 3D model. So even if there is 100 vehicles in the game thats only $1.

Why is this good for BTS:

1) Decreases delivery time of CM2. - Increases time they can spend on programming.

2) Increases number of vehicles in the game and game longetivity. A lot of people will be adding the vehicles to the game after it has been released (just look at Total Annihilation)

3) Increases and builds CM Community to which games will be sold.

4) Increases interest in the game. I bet you will see a lot of articles about the game in the press if you do that.

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Hmmn what about the cost of processing all these pennies to their rightful owners? :-P

SS_PanzerLeader..out

[This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 12-21-99).]

[killmore]

That is kinda easy. I worked for game company before. We have send checks to Heavy Metal bands whose music we used. Just put them into database - print all checks and letter labels. Common thats less than $200.

[killmore]

How much time do you think models will save? 3 Months? or less? Thats probably $100.000 right there. In my company that would be $3 million in savings.

[SS_PanzerLeader]

just wondering if ya were taking the cost into account - and if it was significant

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SS_PanzerLeader....out

[Major Tom]

Well, for CM2 we will not have to wait very long. The code is already set. I cannot see much more needed in revision in this game, they will just have to wait for average processor speed to pick up before major changes can be feasible. They have the bulk of later war German vehicles and troops already completed, plus, practically every lend lease vehicle is already done also. I don't think that CM2 would be close to as difficult to put together than CM1. However, if Steve and Charles keep up with their traditional relation to accuracy and creating the best game possible I can see that the next version will be infinitly better than this one, if it is possible at all!

[killmore]

Remember this will not be only done to speed up the CM2 release. There are also other things to be gained from letting people "help".

[killmore]

I recall someone from BTS complaining that it makes him sick just thinking about how many 3D models they will need for CM2

[Fionn]

There's a lot to be said for "too many cooks spoiling the broth" too IMO PLUS there are polygon limits and ways of doing things which are probably alien to a lot of modellers.

I don't think BTS will have any problem actually getting the vehicles done. They were just registering that this would be a huge task. (as it will)... Also, I've seen the whole process gone through in putting a vehicle model in and matching it with a texture and it is a big, big job with lots of revisions. People would probably end up hating it AND it would take BTS an awfully long time to co-ordinate these efforts.

I think you overestimate what can be done as regards new vehicles being added to the game.

Articles in the gaming press are worth little if the whole game becomes shattered into a myriad of variants based on various custom versions.

$100,000 for the models? .. Hmm, I don't think it is quite that much. I know, I figured it was that much too but it seemingly isn't (and no I don't have any exact figures or even ballpark figures even though I have my own guesses).

I think CM2 is going to consist of a lot of tweaks to the combat mechanics, engine tweaks, graphical enhancements and making more variety for buildings etc (as well as the obvious detailed Soviet and German vehicles, units and TO&Es).

Just my opinions though.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[killmore]

I don't really see a reason why coordination will take a lot of time. All they would have to do is to provide a list of vehicles needed. And the date when they will need them. That is it. Then they can look at them and determine which look best.

+ there are polygon limits - easily enforced with a good editor.

And people could vote which vehicle models they like most.

[John Hough]

I think you vastly underestimate the amount of time needed to coordinate such things. And probably overestimate the number of people who are willing and able to produce good looking tank models with low polygon limits. In the end, I suspect this would cost BTS far more time, effort, and money than just doing the models themselves.

-John

[killmore]

I guess you never player Total Annihilation. They unit designers have to do even more work there then in CM.

They have to design 3D unit look, a weapon and its explosion pic and damage and EVEN WRITE CODE to specify unit behaviour.

Guess what? There are over 300 units available for download. So I don't think it cannot be done.

Coordination time? Less than you think if it is done right.

What is the time needed for? Explain please!

All they do is post a list of units they want and provide a 3D editor that they would use themselves.

Providing a lost is no problem. Choosing units is no problem - people can look at them and choose them by voting.

Then they can make the rest of units themselves if needed.

3D editor? Well Total Annihilation people would buy it themselves!!! (and then they made one)

Even in Close Combat people have added their own graphics and units. Including entire West front for CC3.

[Richard III]

What application is used to create the models, anyway? 3DStudio?

[Fionn]

Comparing Total Anihilation and CM and saying something was possible for the TA community and thus might be possible for CM is highly flawed.

TA sold MANY more units than CM will.

Also you hugely, hugely underestimate the amount of time needed to co-ordinate people. It OFTEN takes longer to co-ordinate a group than have one or two people do all the work.

In any case a company which DEPENDED on people to turn in top of the line artwork on a specific target date for game shipping would be dissapointed by the fact that people would turn in models late, lots of "cool" tanks would be modelled but lots of mundane things wouldn't be.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[killmore]

BTS SHOULD NOT DEPEND on people to deliver the units! They should not count on it either! I leaned well there is no way you can depend on external help!!! But it might save them some time and should not in any way interfere with them.

This will only work if BTS WILL NOT count on the units being produced by other people. But if there is a perfectly good/working 3D model why not use it, save yourselves some time and reward its creator?

They should just allow the people to model while they develop the game engine twicks.

There is a date by units have to be in. The rest of units will have to be done by BTS themselves!

I believe that some people will produce some fun units. And if it happens after the Shipment day then it will just extend playability of CM X.

I think the CM community is much more "sophisticated" then TA community and much more dedicated/interested in WWII. So they would produce units for their own and others enjoyment.

[Fionn]

Why not use the external system?

Precisely because of the uncertainty you talked about...

Better to have two or three people definitely doing the work than have two or three people doing the work but possibly choosing another model IF it happens to come in in time.

BTW since BTS wouldn't be DEPENDING on others to do the models those 2 or 3 people BTS has contracted for modelwork etc would still have to be paid.

End result is that I think it is unfeasible, that creation of "additional fun units" is unrealistic since they are coded into the exe AND if you change one unit or add one unit then you have to change the EXE and checksums wreck PBEM games etc.

The end result is that I think its undesirable, unecessary, and inefficient.

Of course you are welcome to lobby BTS for this. I'm just trying to show some aspects which argue against it.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[killmore]

Now if BTS has contracted people to do all the units then it does not make sense. But if they make units themselves then they do it one by one. And just let people make models for units they are planing to do at the end.

Why not allow adding the units that people make after release? As long as unit is realistic and balanced why not allow people to add their own unit? and create checksum for them if needed.

Tank is a tank is a tank. It has turret, ROF etc - all these can be in spec file. Model can be in another file. And if you write AI correctly you can use same algorithm for every tank - but the behavious will change due to its gun, ROF, protection etc.

Coding units into EXE is not necessary. Trust me I am a programmer and I have added units before.

If you are afraid of cheating - solution is simple. Checksum will be given to the unit once it is approved by "community" by vote.

then it will be available for download from BTS. Otherwise to test units you can just play "cm.exe -nochecksums"

Most of above things will produce more work for BTS. Therefore they are "questionable".

But if they let people create 3D models before "dead line" that should not require extra effort from BTS if done correctly. And by the way they don't even have to pay people. They can simply let prople vote on what was the best unit made by 3rd party and give that person some kind of bonus.

[not here]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Trust me I am a programmer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you've not only got some good ideas, but a sense of humor

It's clear a polite "thanks, but no thanks" is being offered up here. I don't think BTS needs or wants the help to make their release date or to build their library of vehicles.

I do like the idea of a custom vehicle contest, with winning designs being included in future releases (and that should be reward enough). You could get some good publicity, and maybe rope a few more graphics types who are borderline wargamers, into the fold. It would also help build the sense of community that CM seems to foster.

Trust me... I'm in Marketing

[Fionn]

Killmore,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Trust me I'm a programmer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me while I chortle . As a programmer you KNOW there are many ways to do things. In Combat Mission the vehicles and units are encoded DIRECTLY in the exe.

OF COURSE units can be encoded in separate files etc as a lot of games do that BUT CM DOES NOT !

To say that simply because something is most probably not wanted because it would produce "more work" is completely unsupported.

As for allowing people to add more units so long as they are realistic.

Umm, you would be hard-pressed to find any vehicles which are not modelled in CM which were present. There were a few Pz III (late variants.. maybe 3) and about a half-dozen or so Pz IV Cs and Ds in Normandy and a couple of SturmTigers took part in the Bulge but, basically, apart from one-off vehicles they are all there.

Personally I'd hate to see the CM data files being degenerated through multiple "add-ons" etc.

In any case I'm sure BTS isn't interested in the offer for vehicles. I have (many weeks ago) made a suggestion for things that users COULD DO for CM2 in a far less critical area than vehicles which would be fun and would add to the game (and no I'm not going to name it) . Maybe it is possible, maybe it is not to implement what I suggested but I guess one thing we are going to see is if you can simply accept that your idea, while understandable, probably won't float and accept it in good grace without making unfounded accusations.

Ps. CM does NOT do things the way you lay out in your post (regarding the AI and files etc etc). Are you suggesting a major code rewrite to implement things the way you want or are you happy leaving them the way Charles initially coded them?

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[killmore]

Since you are in marketing that explains a lot of things! If there is a discussion - let it die on its own. Don't tell me what they are saying because you don't know that.

Now for fionn:

Obviously there are many ways to do things. One of them is in EXE. That makes it harder to reverse engineer things.

I already said that to do things the way I am desribing would take more time and require rewrite - therefore it is probably not rational!

Just creating vehicles models should not require code rewrite.

I can accept that they don't want to do that. I am simply debating this with you guys. All I am saying is that it is possible and doable. As well as it will reinforce community and thus might result in larger profits.

As for vehicles:

1) Soviet vehicles are not ready yet.

2) Early vehicles (1941) are not ready.

I was pretty sure from the beginning that BTS will not be interested but I was interested what will happen if I start this discussion.

No, I will not make any unfounded or other accusations. What would I accuse? Why? That would be brain dead.

I will admit that I am not a game engineer (We did sell 1500 copies once. When I was a student). I write mainly OS and Satelite SW.

I would love to see add-ons like Japanese stuff thats why I would enable people to create new units, but I am not BTS so I do not have the same vision/point of view as they have.

Interestingly enough I don't see any convincing (to me) counter arguments. But don't worry I am NOT going to point fingers and try to make BTS look bad. This is not the point. I am not going to say that BTS is bad company and they are !@#$ if they don't accept my idea. Common, this way never on my mind.

[Fionn]

Killmore,

It's cool. I understand your just giving your opinions on things ...

One of BTS' stated aims is to try to ensure that only ONE version of the game code and vehicle data is "on the streets" at any one time. This is simply because they have undertaken to make any changes which can be proven to be needed in the name of accuracy (and I think they've proven on the forum time and again that they're serious about this)...

As for not having convincing counter-arguments.. Hmm, I once ran a project with close to 50 people working under me to fix some stuff in a game. It was SUCH a pain in the a** to co-ordinate and deal with the in-fighting that ever since then I've only dealt with small teams.

If more people need to be involved I simply have one section report to one person who then reports to me. That way I don't have to deal with 50 individually but only 3 or 4.

The difficulty of a project (as far as co-ordination goes) is logarithmically proportional to the number of people involved in it. If you don't think that co-ordination difficulties is a convincing argument than all I can say is that you must never have headed up a large project.. (I bet I'm right. Am I killmore? I'm just interested to hear if I'm right since I think anyone who has headed up any projects in RL will tell you that co-ordination of even paid people is tough, nevermind unpaid volunteers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just creating vehicles models should not require code rewrite.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you see ANYWHERE other than the exe where vehicle models and data can be stored in your beta directory? Nope. Thus, changing a vehicle model changes the exe. If you ask me I think its a pretty clever way to stop hacking in at least a small way... If you change the data the exe changes and the checksum spots it. (that's my basic understanding of how it would work anyways).

Anyways, I think your point has some validity but not when BTS is ready to correct any errors necessary. Given the huge number of incorporated vehicles and the correction of errors which BTS will do the only reason to add vehicles is to do "what ifs" and cheats IMO. Neither of which I want to see.

Of course, if BTS never did the pacific I would probably support allowing gamers to create models and textures for a pacific version while BTS works on a different engine. So its not a blanket disagreement its just I don't see the point while BTS is willing to correct any errors.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Brian Rock]

I think there is a bit of confusion here.

If I understand killmore's original suggestion, he was proposing users only create 3D models, not actually code the data for them. BTW would then have full control over the stats, and they would be the ones to actually put the model into the game.

So the idea is not to produce a pile of hacks, but simply to outsource some of the graphics coding on a volunteer basis.

Is this right? If not, can you clarify.

(BTS's answer may well be "no", but it's helpful to be clear exactly what is being proposed.

[Brian Rock]

The dreaded double-post strikes again...

[This message has been edited by Brian Rock (edited 12-23-99).]

[Major Tom]

CM1 isn't even out yet! Why are we focusing on the next version?! Steve and Charles cannot start on the next project until at least a few months after the release of CM1. They want to make sure that all of the bugs are worked out of this game, not only for the next one, but, they would like to concentrate on a patch (if necessary). Plus, I am not sure that they want to spend their entire life producing Combat Mission over and over again in different theatres. Sure, they will eventually produce enough games to cover most/all/some of the theatres of war, but, honestly would you just want to do the same thing all of the time? Maybe they want to do a completely different project in the near future! They are probably sick of this game right now, and to give the impression that getting out the next game ASAP is their duty to us is, well, insulting in a way. Continutity, along with the fact that they are still charging for this product. Legaly, if they allow others to produce parts of a game that they charge money for they leave themselves open for people to demand a cut. I am not saying that anyone that I have met so far on this board would do this, but, there are some who would take advantage.

Continuity wize, and the fact that everyone who works at BTS seem to be perfectionists. Every model that they recieve (if your plan is to be initiated) would have to be gone over 1000 times by Steve and Charles in order to reach their level of scruitiny. In fact, it won't really speed up the process that much. If someone created a model that they didn't feel to be much use in the game, or, if people created multiple versions, how would they choose or say to people that their work isn't good enough? It is just easier and probably more to their style to keep everything in the family.

Sure, they get money for what they have produced, but, they are making sure that we come first! I don't expect to see Combat Mission 2 for a while now, I am sure that Combat Mission 1 can last us for years, or even decades. It's repeat gameplay looks astounding, I mean most people (Including myself) have played the 3 scenario's of the Beta version multiple times! How many times do you regularly play demos?

I appreciate the fact that you are doing this for theirs and our benifit, but, there is a reason that no company is doing this. Even all of the officially accepted Total Annihilation models were created by those within the company. Plus, then they couldn't put their names as the sole developers and producers of the game in the credits

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 12-23-99).]