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Schürzen does it work in game?


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Apparently the Germans did eventually test it against their own HEAT weapons:

In German you can read the official WW II Testbericht reprinted in:

Karl Pawlas "Schürzen zur Verstärkung der Panzerung" in Waffen Revue Nr. 40, S.6457ff

A short summary in English:

03.12.1944 the WaPrüf had the HASAG in Leipzig doing trials with Bazooka, Panzerfaust, Panzerbüchse 39 (With rifle cup using Hohlladung) and PRTD . In that test armour plates are used, protected by plate and mesh Schürzen. Verdict: No effect.

21.12.44 another test was done at Kummersdorf. This time using real tanks, a Pz. IV and a Sherman with Schürzen. Same result.

Before the introduction of Schürzen a test was done 20.2.43 with soviet AT rifles and guns with Sprenggranaten / High explosive). But no Hohlladungen. These tests proved successfull.

http://www.warlordgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=12276&start=10

But in WW2 Schürzen almost didnt affect HEAT shells at all. The german WaPrü Amt tested it in 1944 with german Panzerschrecks and -fäusten and wiremesh and 5mm steel sheet Schürzen were almost total useless.

German quote: (Sorry i am to lazy to translate :P)

Am 21.12.1944 wurde in Kummersdorf ein Versuchschießen durchgeführt, allerdings nur mit den Schürzen aus Maschendraht und Panzerfaust bzw. -schreck. Ergebnis: "Das Verhältnis der beschleunigten Masse beim Auftreffen zur Masse der Schürzen, die durch ihre Trägheit das Geschoß bremsen sollen, ist derart unterschiedlich, daß die Schürze die Geschoßwirkung nur unwesentlich beeinflussen kann. Alle Schürzen sind mit der Aufhängevorrichtung beim ersten Schuß zerstört worden." Auch wenn die Schürzen aus 5mm Blechen und nicht aus harten Drahtnetz sind, wird die Wirkung der Hohlladunggeschoße nicht bzw. kaum gemindert, wobei die allierten Hohlladungsgeschoße in ihrer Wirkung den dt. nicht nachstanden. D.h. die dt. Schürzen waren unwirksam, behinderten das Fahrzeug, teilweise sogar den Höhenrichtbereich des Geschütze, waren nicht sicher befestigt und eine Verschwendung von Material."

Source: Karl Pawlas "Schürzen zur Verstärkung der Panzerung" in Waffen Revue Nr. 40, S.6457ff

http://ftr-wot.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-schurzen-against-heat.html Edited by akd
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akd,

 

Full grog points! Wow! Now, would you please explain the terminology. Does "no effect" in the first box quote mean the shaped charges fired had no effect vs armor plate screened by either plate or mesh skirts? Or does it mean the skirts were ineffective in stopping the shaped charges? The third part says the skirts were effective vs ATR and HE fire. A good thing, since that was what they were supposed to do,

 

The second box quote, by contrast, is unambiguous as to the findings, which are very much contrary to what I expected. Early shaped charges were very sensitive as to standoff because of relatively large liner angles. In this regard, the Panzerschreck was better off, since it had both a narrower cone and further shaping of the jet via the trumpet. By contrast, the much Panzerfausts had very wide liner angles, but were able to bring far more explosive to the party, something the rocket projectiles simply couldn't. Those big explosive charges resulted in very large cone diameters (CD), and shaped charge penetration is expressed to this day in those terms. Large CD = large penetration. Let's look at some examples from WW II.

 

Bazooka shell cutaways

 

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=265198&aid=21054

 

Panzerschreck vs early bazooka cutaways

 

http://www.inert-ord.net/atrkts/pschrek/psbazcomp.jpg

 

The optimum standoff distance is, of course, reflected in the way the projectile is designed, though there are various limitations imposed by size and weight limitations, for instance. The consequence of this is that what's built may not result in optimal penetration. In some cases, moving the detonation point farther out actually benefits the shaped charge being used, but in others, it helps slow, unravel and disperse the rather weakly structured jet. There is also the matter, and cry out for ArgusEye here, of the behavior of the jet as it goes from one density of material to the next. This article, Shaped Charge from Project Gutenberg, nicely covers the issues being addressed here.

 

With the above in mind, I'd like to share with you what a then (circa late 70s) CONFIDENTIAL study, which I believe was called TANK DAMAGE (U), and reported in a special volume of JMEM (Joint Munitions Effectiveness Manual) found regarding shaped charge tank projectiles in the 1967 War. The results were pretty shocking. The findings, based on meticulous combing over of weapon effects against dozens of tanks, showed that shaped charges were extraordinarily susceptible to even small changes in standoff distance. How small? Minor excrescences on the tanks, such as lifting eyes, headlight guards, tow cable attachment points and such time and again either defeated outright or degraded the jet enough to prevent penetration! Armed with that considerable body of painstakingly acquired real life combat results (IDF allowed full access to the wrecks), I find it difficult to believe that the skirts were wholly ineffective vs the shaped charge munitions the Germans tested. I would very much like to know about the ranges, angles and other parameters of those tests.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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Boy do I have a real life story about spaced armor to tell you about!

 

As a Bradley M2A2 IFV Commander in Desert Storm I took a 100mm AT gun HEAT round hit to the hull at the point where the work platform for engine maintenance stows on the left upper hull right under the TOW launcher. The round struck the curved over lip of the platform which is the outboard side and detonated. It cut the platform in two and the hollow space below the platform dissipatied the full energy. It buckeld in the hull below the site and the hull internal kevlar panels lining the overhead and walls in the troop compartment prevented spalling.

 

The worst damage was that the blast penetrated the armor of the TOW launcher and detonated the propellent of the two missiles inside which caused the launcher to disengrate into a spray of shrapnel that killed one of the dismounted infantry men and wounded four others.

 

The combination HEAT round blast and TOW blast bent the Bradley turret upwards tearing open about a inch space between the turret and the turret race (the ball bearing track the turret rides on) from about the blast site to almost under the 25mm main gun.

 

My gunner was burned and received shrapnel wounds as he sits on the left side of the turret. I was outside of the vehicle assisting in the evacuation of the X.O.'s vehicle crew as the Infantry dismounts were busy engaging the enemy. The X.O.'s vehicle had just gotten hit by the AT gun killing the gunner who was a friend. My vehicle was using the X.O.'s vehicle as a shield and the gunner on my vehicle was engaging a machine gun that opened up on our Infantry as it presented a real threat and we thought we were safe behind the other vehicle.

 

But the gun crew on the AT gun were lucky or damn well skilled as they skimmed that round right over the radiator deck on the X.O.'s vehicle (it actually left scorch marks on the grill) and hit mine.

 

If I had been inside the Bradley turret directing the gunner I would be not sitting here today as two ball bearings from the race, each about a 1/2 inch in diameter, flew out and embeded themselves in the commanders back rest hard enough to dent the solid metal pillar the cushion is attached to. The pillars attache the turret floor to the turret. It would have gone right under the lower edge of my crewmans kevlar vest due to the level I normaly sit at when in a engagement. So thanks to "ad-hoc" spaced armor my vehicle didn't become a catastrophic kill and we were able to evacuate the wounded.

 

Christopher

Mech.Gato

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Boy do I have a real life story about spaced armor to tell you about!

 

As a Bradley M2A2 IFV Commander in Desert Storm I took a 100mm AT gun HEAT round hit to the hull at the point where the work platform for engine maintenance stows on the left upper hull right under the TOW launcher. The round struck the curved over lip of the platform which is the outboard side and detonated. It cut the platform in two and the hollow space below the platform dissipatied the full energy. It buckeld in the hull below the site and the hull internal kevlar panels lining the overhead and walls in the troop compartment prevented spalling.

 

The worst damage was that the blast penetrated the armor of the TOW launcher and detonated the propellent of the two missiles inside which caused the launcher to disengrate into a spray of shrapnel that killed one of the dismounted infantry men and wounded four others.

 

The combination HEAT round blast and TOW blast bent the Bradley turret upwards tearing open about a inch space between the turret and the turret race (the ball bearing track the turret rides on) from about the blast site to almost under the 25mm main gun.

 

My gunner was burned and received shrapnel wounds as he sits on the left side of the turret. I was outside of the vehicle assisting in the evacuation of the X.O.'s vehicle crew as the Infantry dismounts were busy engaging the enemy. The X.O.'s vehicle had just gotten hit by the AT gun killing the gunner who was a friend. My vehicle was using the X.O.'s vehicle as a shield and the gunner on my vehicle was engaging a machine gun that opened up on our Infantry as it presented a real threat and we thought we were safe behind the other vehicle.

 

But the gun crew on the AT gun were lucky or damn well skilled as they skimmed that round right over the radiator deck on the X.O.'s vehicle (it actually left scorch marks on the grill) and hit mine.

 

If I had been inside the Bradley turret directing the gunner I would be not sitting here today as two ball bearings from the race, each about a 1/2 inch in diameter, flew out and embeded themselves in the commanders back rest hard enough to dent the solid metal pillar the cushion is attached to. The pillars attache the turret floor to the turret. It would have gone right under the lower edge of my crewmans kevlar vest due to the level I normaly sit at when in a engagement. So thanks to "ad-hoc" spaced armor my vehicle didn't become a catastrophic kill and we were able to evacuate the wounded.

 

Christopher

Mech.Gato

Holy crap! 

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mech.gato,

 

That stopped my breathing altogether. What an amazing story--which you happily lived to tell! Am sorry about the loss of your friend and the injuries to your gunner. Do you by any chance have pics you can post of the damage to your armored steed? Having looked at all those pics and analyses of dead or damaged and abandoned tanks in the JMEM I mentioned, tanks in which not all were Arab, and most ate it from KE, or in a few memorable cases HESH, I'm quite interested in seeing the combined effects of a HEAT hit and the explosion of the TOW missiles on your ride. I'm very impressed with how tough your Bradley was. Judging from the Bradley Wiki, my impression is that the armor upgrades and antispall liner that were part of the M2A2 were what likely saved your bacon. May I presume that your Bradley was a total write off? Pics or no pics, thank you very much for sharing your extraordinarily harrowing story with us! Also, yours is the first account I can recall of being in combat vs a T-12. Considering it was designed to kill a 1950s MBT, I'd say you did very well to survive the hit. In the flank, no less.

 

Regards,

John Kettler

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Sorry no pics. During a PCS (permanent change of station) move from Ft. Hood to Germany after Desert Storm I was robbed blind by Central Texas Movers. the civilian company contracted to handle house hold goods. They took all my Desert Storm stuff. Like the whole collection of Surrender Phamplets that were dropped on the Iraq's. My collecton of BMP manufacturer plates pryed off of the bulkhead of a BMP we captured. And most frustrating the few pictures I had that were taken by friends and then I received a copy.

 

They also stole personal items. Including BDU uniforms and military rank and insignia owned beyond standard issue. Plus my Desert Storm issue uniforms were stolen. It was legally within in their possession, sealed with their wire seals or tape, and their responsibility to safeguard. After looting my items all opened boxes were sealed again over the old tape. With the seal tape that read "Central Texas Movers Official Seal. No self-incrimination there eh?

 

Several of my friends who were part of this large NCO move from Ft. Hood to train new Bradley IFV units in Germany had their stuff shipped by Central Texas Movers with the same rampant thievery. Of course CID (Criminal Investigative Division) became involved in these cases.

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Damn that's a hell of a story. Sorry you lost your buddy but thank God you were able to go home to your family and post here. An amazing story and it shows just how devastating an AT round can be. Now when you lose a vehicle in CM you can well imagine what's going on inside. Thanks for sharing that.  

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mech.gato,

 

I know of a Navy case in which not only did the culprits have a thoroughly unpleasant and memorable encounter with the aggrieved, but the entire firm was decertified and lost ALL its Navy business since it was no longer on the approved list. That is absolutely outrageous what happened to you! Did you ever think of checking out a Bradley from the motor pool and driving it though the side of their building by way of expressing displeasure? I hope CID crucified CTM. What they did to you, is, I believe, a Federal crime. From the sounds of it, we're talking pattern and practice against the personnel of at least one service. 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

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Sorry no pics. During a PCS (permanent change of station) move from Ft. Hood to Germany after Desert Storm I was robbed blind by Central Texas Movers. the civilian company contracted to handle house hold goods. They took all my Desert Storm stuff. Like the whole collection of Surrender Phamplets that were dropped on the Iraq's. My collecton of BMP manufacturer plates pryed off of the bulkhead of a BMP we captured. And most frustrating the few pictures I had that were taken by friends and then I received a copy.

 

They also stole personal items. Including BDU uniforms and military rank and insignia owned beyond standard issue. Plus my Desert Storm issue uniforms were stolen. It was legally within in their possession, sealed with their wire seals or tape, and their responsibility to safeguard. After looting my items all opened boxes were sealed again over the old tape. With the seal tape that read "Central Texas Movers Official Seal. No self-incrimination there eh?

 

Several of my friends who were part of this large NCO move from Ft. Hood to train new Bradley IFV units in Germany had their stuff shipped by Central Texas Movers with the same rampant thievery. Of course CID (Criminal Investigative Division) became involved in these cases.

You know, I don't think I'd want to steal from a bunch of military guys.  Darwin's theory and all that I'd like to continue to be part of the survival of the human race versus the dying off of the less fit members.

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