In another blow to transparency, Putin classifies peacetime Spetsnaz losses

[Battlefront.com]

How Mlada Bosna and the events from 1914. connect to Berlin Congress that was in 1878. eludes me. But I'll say no more, lest we steer this way off topic.

It doesn't. It has to do with this statement you made:

"We have a two different view on the subject and the cause of that is cultural difference (US fought for its independence, we had to wait for the Berlin Congress while using every legal and-not-so legal instrument present in the Ottoman Empire)"

I was simply pointing out that there is no cultural difference. When a group of people gets fed up enough with not having its own say in its own lives, violence inevitably follows. It is a Human thing, not a cultural thing. Both the US colonists and the Serbian people tried to secure more rights for themselves through peaceful means, both ran out of patience and resorted to violence. It's fairly normal, routine Human behavior going back thousands of years.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I am usually reluctant to get involved in these topics, but here goes...

 

Focusing on the "legality" of a referendum is missing the point. I doubt you will find many Constitutions that allow a region to secede following a referendum.

 

Even the Quebec referendum(s), which everyone likes to cite as an example, were not "legal". The Canadian Constitution has no provision allowing a Province to secede based on a referendum. The referendums were organised by the Quebec provincial government when the separatist Parti Québécois was in power and it was never clear if the Federal Governement would respect the results if the independence side had won.

 

A referendum is a political tool. For example, if 75% had voted for Quebec independence, it would have been politically impossible for the Federal Governement to ignore the result, no matter what the Constitution said. You can only deny the political aspirations of a nation for so long, if they cannot express it democratically through the ballot box, they will turn to civil disobedience, civil unrest or even civil war which is no one's long term interest.

Yup, this is exactly correct.

The Quebec situation is particularly interesting because it isn't official but the federal government allowed it to happen (i.e. it had the power and authority to shut it down). However, that would no doubt increase the impression that the voice of Quebecois is being repressed which would increase the support for the separatists. It would also cause the people who put their energy into the referendum to put their energies, probably doubled, into something far less desirable from the federal government's standpoint. Very, very counter productive in terms of the federal government's goal of keeping Quebec a productive member of the country. So they very wisely allowed the referendum to go forward (several times) while at the same time saying that it has no legal standing.

Note that the referendum followed International standards for accountability. I am absolutely sure that if that were not the case the Canadian government would try to shut it down. As well they should. A biased vote without accountability is more damaging than no vote at all.

Steve

[Aurelius]

Well, I stand corrected. I won't derail this thread anymore (wasn't my intention in the first place).

[GAZ NZ]

Good thread.

I've come into this quite late.

I've seen and read all the stuff you are referring to John about US vets , and how  they are dying off, being treated poorly.

Read it for years. Quite saddening.

An old colleague , A Dr I used to work with here in NZ. He used to work for a defense contractor in Saudi.

At the end of the Gulf War, him and his team of Drs had some high level US brass come in.

They asked about reported symptoms there - gulf war syndrome. Any one have reported symptoms?.

They said no none that they were aware of, and they asked was there any medical evidence they could have to look at and see what was going on to help them better understand this.

The US Lady looked to another military colleague and said all destroyed? And the guy nodded yes.

They were told the 000s of files on this were all lost and unavailable and sorry couldn't help them then they left.

 The Dr concerned said it sounded dodgey as hell.  They were of the opinion they were trying to cover up loose ends and get rid of evidence.

 

Dr Craig Paul Roberts pretty much summed up this war with Russia and Ukraine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoAH0VXbwfU&feature=youtu.be

I respect his comments regarding US foreign policy and current economic issues

In his comments he also noted how it started - with western meddling.

He noted how the Russians keep casualties down with troop rotations etc and that is of relevance to this thread.

he talked about all that and the ghosting of units. Quite interesting.

Its worth listening to.

We all know Russia is involved. They had to be. They were simply protecting there country and economy.

I would be if I was Russia.

 

The Russian military have made physical plaques / commemorations to battles in the Ukraine but have not listed where the battles where etc - its like a place holder.

When this is all over they will honor the dead.

 

Also I wonder your thoughts John as you may have been around the scene at the time Roberts was assistant treasurer to Reagan.

I found his comments enlightening as to the nuclear issues and modified treaties today the US has allegedly cancelled in an aggressive fashion.

I respect his economic views. They are quite realistic. 

What did you think on his comments from a military perspective?   etc 

He talks about the dealings with Israel and drones and the Georgia Crisis  in exchange for Irans missiles systems codes? legit?

I see Israel PM is in Russia or just was over Syria.

I  suspect there is some link. Obviously regional defense concerns.

 

As to loss of life - a comment on the shot down air liner MH-17.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/which-airlines-fly-over-ukraine-how-can-you-find-out-your-flight-route/story-fnizu68q-1226996428536

The Ukraine is responsible for there airspace. They should share blame irrespective. 

It was absolutely irresponsible to allow any international flights thru a war zone with flying aircraft etc shooting at one another. But its common place generally as height is the safety margin for the aircraft concerned as per the link i noted. I think its kinds nuts but how the air flight business works.  Ukraine should have perhaps said to the UN its too dangerous and banned flights

Few air liners are flying over Iraqi warzones. The British have decided to stay in there. British Air ways.

A few have pulled out. They have shorter range air to air missile launchers so less risk i guess and no air to air attacks in general.

[Battlefront.com]

Well, that was a bit of a wide ranging ramble of stuff that has almost nothing to do with anything in this thread.  I especially "liked" the part where Malaysian Airline's choice to overfly Ukrainian territory, then being shot down by a Russian Buk launcher, is somehow Ukraine's fault.  "Honestly judge, if the woman hadn't been wearing a short skirt I wouldn't have decided to rape her".  Some solid logic, that.

And you are a fan of Roberts too?  You mean the conspiracy theorist with a long track record of taking strong pro-Putin stands, including many stints on RT?  And also lends his name and "credibility" to neo-Nazi websites and sites which are confirmed fronts for FSB disinformation activities?

http://www.interpretermag.com/paul-craig-roberts-truther-as-patriot/

What you call "enlightening" I call something else.  But the Forum software and the rules prevent me from being as specific as I would like to be.  Let's just say that he's proof that even the paranoid can sometimes hold down good jobs before they go off the rails.

Anyway, this is a necropost in a thread that has no purpose to be revived.  I am therefore locking it.

Steve