In another blow to transparency, Putin classifies peacetime Spetsnaz losses

[MikeyD]

On rare occasion there have been stories circulating of Russian units on the move or in bivuoac being caught in the open by Ukrainian GRAD, or more spectacularly, by Tocha-U ballistic missiles. Under such circumstances normal rules-of-thumb for estimated average casualty rates during a conflict go out the window. You can expect the number of casualties in a particular unit suddenly spike to where they become combat ineffective. Up until the (hypothetical) Tocha strike the unit may have been experiencing the usual slow drip of incoming casualties - then BOOM. Same thing goes for the Ukrainian side to. Its a 'low-intensity conflict' up to the moment when it abruptly isn't.

 

Here's a site detailing a Tocha strike on Donetsk last year.

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/10/ukraine-destroys-terrorussian-base-with.html

Edited August 28, 2015 by MikeyD

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, as was one reported incident in either late July or early August 2014. I'll look up the details sometime this weekend, but basically the Ukrainians had intel that a Russian military unit (not militia) was spending the night in an old factory (IIRC). They hit it with massive artillery and caused over 100 casualties (IIRC) in one attack. Likewise, one of the first instances of Russian Grad attacks from Russian territory caught a Ukrainian mech battalion out in the open and slaughtered them. There was something like 200 total casualties in that one attack.

A reminder that in WW2 it is generally accepted that roughly 75% of all casualties were the result of artillery. Back then the general ratio of KIA to WIA was 1:4.

Steve

[DreDay]

I think that there is some confusion that is caused by OP's article. The new government decree in question (which is not that new btw – it was announced over a month ago) allows for non-disclosure of casualties incurred in special operations. It does not specify what particular units it applies to and does not draw any distraction between special vs. conventional forces. Obviously this action has been enacted due to Russian actions in Ukraine. However, this policy is not Ukraine-specific and allows Russian government more flexibility when conducting clandestine operations abroad.

 

While this policy obviously limits the freedom of speech and information while further prevents public oversight government actions; it is also worth noting that it was an openly issued decree that was coverd and discussed in all forms of Russian media.

[sburke]

 

 

While this policy obviously limits the freedom of speech and information while further prevents public oversight government actions; it is also worth noting that it was an openly issued decree that was coverd and discussed in all forms of Russian media.

Yeah that is kind of the point, they want to make sure every knows the Kremlin will not tolerate a critical eye looking into it's deceptions particularly when it comes to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.  Doesn't make as much impact if you enact a set of rules and don't tell anyone.  The problem Russia is having is public media keeps pulling the curtain back on it's activities.

 

As to the article cited by John above, my understanding is that has been thoroughly debunked as false anyway.  Apparently the original source was a bunch of BS and the western media hadn't thoroughly vetted it.

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://ruslanleviev.livejournal.com/37565.html

 

Credit to Steve for finding this one.

[VladimirTarasov]

The real range should be 25-100, Usually special forces advisers are sent to lead command. Although might be a few vehicle crews sent to train and operate the vehicles. Volunteers who stay longest should be guys who are trained by special advisory teams, So then they can train their volunteers. And then there are the teams that stay to protect critical areas. Maybe up 150. Although the estimation of 500 doesn't sound crazy I really doubt that is what it is. 

[DreDay]

The real range should be 25-100, Usually special forces advisers are sent to lead command. Although might be a few vehicle crews sent to train and operate the vehicles. Volunteers who stay longest should be guys who are trained by special advisory teams, So then they can train their volunteers. And then there are the teams that stay to protect critical areas. Maybe up 150. Although the estimation of 500 doesn't sound crazy I really doubt that is what it is. 

 

Right. I was told by my Russian sources (who are by no means an ultimate authority on this, but do happen to have more inside information than any of us) that there are around 100 Russian active duty KIAs from that conflict. However, that number does not account for Russian volunteers (i.e. not active duty) that had traveled to Donbas either independently or as part of Russian voluntary training/deployment system. There is also an ambiguous category of Russian volunteers and advisors that were recruited from active duty personnel, but deployed to Donbas as either PMCs or volunteers independently of their organic units. Those numbers are likely to be much higher, and I am not even sure that they are fully accounted for.

[DreDay]

Just a quick update for Russian-speakers and Google-Translate studs - here is an official reference to a presidential decree in question. As I've said - it's not entirely new (issued on 5/28/2015) and did not go unnoticed in Russian media (including the "opposition" outlets).

 

http://publication.pravo.gov.ru/Document/View/0001201505280001?index=0&rangeSize=1

[MikeyD]

"...or as part of Russian voluntary training/deployment system"

 

That got a chuckle out of me.

[Battlefront.com]

The real range should be 25-100, Usually special forces advisers are sent to lead command. Although might be a few vehicle crews sent to train and operate the vehicles. Volunteers who stay longest should be guys who are trained by special advisory teams, So then they can train their volunteers. And then there are the teams that stay to protect critical areas. Maybe up 150. Although the estimation of 500 doesn't sound crazy I really doubt that is what it is.

 

You are forgetting the two widely documented incursions of regular Russian military units. The first was the August/September counter offensive, the second was Debaltseve. Unless Burat tank units are now considered "special forces"

 

Right. I was told by my Russian sources (who are by no means an ultimate authority on this, but do happen to have more inside information than any of us) that there are around 100 Russian active duty KIAs from that conflict. However, that number does not account for Russian volunteers (i.e. not active duty) that had traveled to Donbas either independently or as part of Russian voluntary training/deployment system. There is also an ambiguous category of Russian volunteers and advisors that were recruited from active duty personnel, but deployed to Donbas as either PMCs or volunteers independently of their organic units. Those numbers are likely to be much higher, and I am not even sure that they are fully accounted for.

Exactly my point several posts ago. There are basically three types of Russian fighters:

1. Active military sent under direct orders from Russian military units.

2. Active military sent as "vacationers" to fight with Militia units.

3. Citizens (with or without prior military experience) who "volunteer" to fight with Militia units.

The last group is by far the largest and the most persistent. They are a wide range of groups from Novorussian idealists, to Cossacks, to neo-Nazis, to unemployed, to adventurers trying to prove themselves, to... well, all the usual assortment of people one would expect for a situation like this. For the most part they may volunteer to fight, but they do get paid. Or at least a large percentage of are told they are going to get paid. Whether they actually get paid or not is a different story.

Given the size of this group (Borodai puts it at many 10s of thousands), it is very probable that casualties (KIA and WIA) number in the thousands. Especially since some of the most troublesome Russian volunteer units (Cossacks in particular) were deliberately used as cannon fodder in various actions, especially Debaltseve.

On an average day the bulk of the active Russian military members, acting under direct orders from the Kremlin, are manning logistics, air defense, electronic warfare, and other highly specialized units. If you check the list of verified Russian military activity, and you exclude the Aug/Sept counter offensive and Debaltseve actions, you'll see most of the Russian forces fall into this category.

As for the Decree... it was made public the day it was issued. It's even been unsuccessfully challenged in Russian courts. As sburke pointed out, there's not much point in making a decree to shut down public access and debate if you don't make the decree known to the public This follows the usual pattern of Russian crackdowns on freedoms, which is to pervert the legal system to give "credibility" to the actions. Similar to the requirement of specific NGOs to register as "foreign agents". Nothing hidden about it.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

BTW, 100 KIA from active Russian military (i.e. not "vacationers" or "volunteers") sounds right to me. I doubt it is much higher than that, probably not much lower either. The "vacationers" is probably significantly higher, but the bulk of the total casualties is most likely from the "volunteers". This assessment is based on relative numbers of each group, their general exposure to combat, and the duration of their time in Ukraine.

Steve

[VladimirTarasov]

There is no organized Russian forces there, Just Special forces and advisers. Everything in your list sounds persistent I wont counter argue, Except for saying that there are Neo-Nazis, Please, Do not forget that there are nazi right wing units on the Ukrainian side. Directly under Neo-Nazi leaders and commanders. Burat tank unit? You do realize that Russian tank forces are 5 times skilled and better trained than the Ukrainians and just about everything else is. I visited DPR late last year, And I spoke with guys there, They felt let down that there isn't any Russian combined forces already helping. If there really were units fully organized and strengthened for war then the war would be dramatically different. The rebels are undermanned, This is a reality. They are doing great for the equipment they have, Now they got better equipment from funds and also finally help from Russian officials. 

 

I don't understand what you mean by vacationers? Would you call US advisers in Syria vacationers too? Not so. There is no reason in sending vacationers when they can work with Russian military, And the rebels. 

[sburke]

We call them vacationers because that is what Putin calls them. And before we get too far into claims there are no Russian regular troops there - that is what Putin said about Crimea until one day he said actually there had been.  You see there is a bit of a credibility gap there.

 

And I don't put too much stock in what you buddies in DPR/LNR said.  There is far too much evidence to the contrary.

[Battlefront.com]

There is no organized Russian forces there, Just Special forces and advisers.

And the regular ground combat units as well You seem to overlook the fact that the presence of regular Russian combat units is very well documented, considering that the Russian government is doing its best to hide the fact that they are there.

Again, there were two large injections of regular Russian combat units. First was in the August/September 2014 Russian led counter offensive, the second was the last part of Debaltseve. The amount of documentation of Russian forces crossing the border, in large numbers, is massive. It includes first hand accounts from Russian soldiers, graves, captured soldiers, satellite images, SBU intercepts, tons of eye witnesses of movements, OSCE and Western journalist first hand information, etc.

In addition to this, there are many Russian support units in Ukraine. In particular air defenses and electronic warfare. These are not advisors, these are Russian Federation soldiers manning the most advanced Russian equipment in its arsenal. This too is well documented.

If you do not accept this, then you are being very naive or deliberately trying to misinform people here. Either way, what you say is factually incorrect.

 

Everything in your list sounds persistent I wont counter argue, Except for saying that there are Neo-Nazis, Please, Do not forget that there are nazi right wing units on the Ukrainian side. Directly under Neo-Nazi leaders and commanders.

Of course I understand that both sides have right wing extremists. But I was making a list of Russian citizens participating in the war against Ukraine, not Ukrainian citizens defending against invading Russians.

 

Burat tank unit? You do realize that Russian tank forces are 5 times skilled and better trained than the Ukrainians and just about everything else is.

What does this have to do with anything? The Buryat presence in the battle of Debaltseve was very well documented. Both in the West and with Russian independent media, including one tanker who was badly burned during the fighting.

 

I visited DPR late last year, And I spoke with guys there, They felt let down that there isn't any Russian combined forces already helping. If there really were units fully organized and strengthened for war then the war would be dramatically different.

This is why Russia pushed actual Russian military units into Ukraine on two major occasions. DPR was on the verge of collapse in August 2014 and in Debaltseve it was in danger of a humiliating defeat after weeks of attempts to cut off and destroy the Ukrainian forces there.

So I agree with the DPR militia. If Russia had a permanent ground combat presence in Ukraine then things would be different than they are now. Instead, Russia will only use them when the DPR/LPR are desperate. Which makes a lot of sense since Russia is still trying to pretend it isn't involved at all.

 

The rebels are undermanned, This is a reality. They are doing great for the equipment they have, Now they got better equipment from funds and also finally help from Russian officials.

They have had funding and help since Girkin first invaded Ukraine last Spring. It is well documented.

 

I don't understand what you mean by vacationers? Would you call US advisers in Syria vacationers too? Not so.

Of course not, for two reasons. First, the US has very publicly said it is training and equipping "friendly" forces to fight both Assad and ISIS. Second, the US government has a degree of transparency and accountability that would make any widespread program to illegally coerce its soldiers to sign illegal documents to fight an illegal war very stupid because it would become public about 10 minutes after the program started. So the US does not have the need to create "vacationers" and it would be discovered very quickly if it did.

 

There is no reason in sending vacationers when they can work with Russian military, And the rebels.

Of course there is a reason! Russia is officially not doing anything to aid DPR/LPR, therefore it must hide its involvement. There are many, many, many documented cases of Russian military conscripts and contract soldiers who have been pressured into going on "vacation", there are others who were forced into it.

Apparently you haven't been following this conflict very closely since you seem unaware of some of the most basic facts. Let me show you one of the things you apparently have missed. This is the evidence of the 5th Tank Brigade being directly involved in Debaltseve:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/03/11/vreditel-sobaka/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/monitoring/siberians-join-the-fight-in-ukraine

And one of many articles about the 5th Tank Brigade tanker, Sesegma Batomunkuievna, who was burned when his tank was knocked out:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ed3_1428089525

There's so much information on this you can easily research it yourself.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

In part due to the capture of a Russian Army major, who made a wrong turn into a Ukrainian checkpoint last month, we have some idea of how the command structure is set up within the DPR/LPR. Recently the SBU released a lot more details, including documenting the Russian staff officers by name.

The structure is quite pragmatic given that Russia is trying to denny it is involved:

1. Strategic command. This is based in Russia and is in overall control over things such as logistics, training, and military strategy. On paper these guys call all the shots. In reality, I'm sure it's not as tightly controlled as it is within the Russian military.

2. Local command. These are the militia leaders ostensibly under the control of the DPR and LPR.

3. "Shadow command". Active service Russian officers who are assigned 1:1 for every significant command position within the local command structure. They report to the strategic command chain, not the local command chain. In theory they do not control the action on the ground, but instead are there to "advise". By and large that is probably how it works because the local command is supposed to be following the directives of the strategic command anyway. It seems the primary purpose of the shaddow command is to have a trusted, hidden, means of keeping the militias functioning. The local commander might say "we need more ammo" and the shadow commander of that level passes the request up the chain.

Here is the English version of the SBU documentation of the command structure. Note that 1st Corps = DPR and 2nd Corps = LPR.

"Russian occupant troops" is the way Ukraine views all forces fighting against it, but in reality it is more complicated than that. However, from a practical standpoint it doesn't matter much since without Russia's direct involvement there would be no war. So it is not inaccurate to consider all the forces against it as "Russian" even if not all are Russian citizens.

Steve

[VladimirTarasov]

I appreciate bringing up sources and facts, I will not make a long post but quickly reply to some of your major points.

 

The 5th tank brigade all the way in Ulan Ude? Why do so when you have tank brigades at the border. That doesn't make sense... I know of many brigades memorized that are near the Ukrainian border, And BTW did drills for certain events like in Ukraine. I read and watch Ukrainian, Russian, And English based news. I don't want to misinform any body on here. I feel that you accused me of being a Putin bot  (Joking)

 

The SSU throws out misinformation just as how FSB does, Or any other Russian agencies, The US does too and ect ect. The illegal ousting of Viktor was not right, The people of Eastern Ukraine didn't get a vote, But that is not what is the main problem. If you go full ANTI-RUSSIA in a country where you can say the Russian people originated from (Eastern Ukraine) Of course people will want to rebel, The DPR/LPR was a skeleton at first, Of course us Russians naturally will come fight on the side of our countrymen. Sure you can say Putin lied about the "Green men" But please keep in mind you can say all of Crimea (around 90%) voted yes. I have family members living there, I am actually originally from Crimea and Rostov areas. (my family) 

 

OSCE doesn't care about anything, When the plane was shot down (you know the one that Mr. Putin's army shot down according to the West) there was a delay for inspectors to arrive on scene! The Russian Federation showed proof that it was not the rebels who shot it down, But infact the Ukrainian armed forces that did. You are overlooking the bombing of civilian areas that are in rebel control, The rebels like to bomb themselves? And even before the UA airforce was doing strafe runs onto residential areas! Don't forget those. In the end even if Russia is fueling this war what will they gain?! Absolutely nothing, Eastern Ukraine cannot join the Russian Federation, Russia knows this. If it does great for me, I can visit my family and friends there, Without fear. 

 

This is totally unfair, You totally ignore Russian media sources because of a bias look onto the conflict. P.S. if you need me to list Russian Military units that can be deployed in Ukraine without needing to take units from the other side of Siberia you can ask me.

[sburke]

that Russian proof about MH17 is about as big a steaming pile of crap that has ever been seen. Easily debunked and most of it so inconsistent it didn't even need to be debunked.  And the UKR are not your countrymen, they are Ukrainians.  You can't cross thew border and fight in their country by any international standard.  Russia has a really bad road ahead of them fighting Islamic extremism if they can't even secure their border with Ukraine.

 

The Crimea vote was a sham not even coming close to an international standard and no way 90% of Crimeans voted for that.  Come on even just the Tatar vote would have kept it below 90.  If Russia had said 60%, maybe just maybe it would have been believed, still an illegal vote, but at least somewhat honest - 90 though?  Lie big seems to be the Kremlin motto.

 

We disregard most Russian sources as time and again the lies they have told are far too transparent.  MH 17 was shot down by a Buk, possibly run by a Russian technical crew, but definitely in occupied territory.  The ONLY country that says different is Russia...which should surprise no one.  It is not by chance that Russia vetoed the UN resolution to go after the culprits even though they were not yet named. Russia screwed up, It was definitely not their intent, but they screwed up and they don't want to own up.  Honestly not much different than the US shooting down Iranian flight 655, but at least the US paid reparations in the settlement that was reached in an international court of justice- a move Russia is actively blocking regarding MH 17.

 

As to Viktor's ousting, that is an internal matter for the UKR people, not for Russia to decide.  Hey I hated when Bush won the election here in 2000 and feel the vote was actually stolen, but no way would I support a civil war especially one run by a foreign power.

 

Vladimir you are most certainly not a bot, but your belief in the mis information coming out of Russia and your trust in those sources is misplaced.

[Battlefront.com]

The 5th tank brigade all the way in Ulan Ude? Why do so when you have tank brigades at the border. That doesn't make sense...

Sure it makes sense. The number of Russian military units that are fit for combat is not large. Since the Russian government is trying not to send in conscripts, it has an even smaller pool of forces to draw from.

Further, the Russian strategy (from the start) has been to send in military units that are composed (as much as possible) from volunteers. The way it works is the Brigade tries to find enough volunteers to fill the ranks of one large battalion sized group. It is typically a mix of 1x Tank, 2x Mech, 1x Artillery, 1x Logistic (plus small attached units).

For the August/September 2014 offensive Russia used 8 of these BTG (Battalion Tactical Groups) entered Ukraine:

10th Regiment of 76th Landing and Assault Division

19th Motor Rifle Brigade (Separate)

335th Regiment of 98th Airborne Division

247th Regiment of 7th Landing and Assault Division

331st Regiment of 98th Airborne Division

19th Motorized Rifle Brigade (Separate)

8th Motorized Rifle Brigade (Separate)

31st Landing Assault Brigade (Separate)

56th Landing Assault Brigade (Separate) - I believe this one was combined with the 31st

Another factor is that part of Russia's strategy to minimize exposure is to minimize concentrated casualties in one unit. That would be difficult to cover up. This means units are rotated very frequently and time has to go by before the same unit can be put into Ukraine again.

The war has been going on for more than a year, which means the pool of fresh units to rotate in gets smaller over time.

 

I know of many brigades memorized that are near the Ukrainian border, And BTW did drills for certain events like in Ukraine. I read and watch Ukrainian, Russian, And English based news. I don't want to misinform any body on here. I feel that you accused me of being a Putin bot  (Joking)

No, I accuse you of not paying attention. The information of Russia's direct involvement in Ukraine, including with combat and special support units, is so very easy to find. But you have to be looking for it and you have to not be predisposed to disbelief.

For example, I present evidence that the 5th Tank Brigade was involved in a specific place at a specific time and it can be verified. What is your response? "It doesn't make sense". It only "doesn't make sense" if you aren't paying attention.

 

The SSU throws out misinformation just as how FSB does, Or any other Russian agencies, The US does too and ect ect.

True, but of the three the Russian government is king amongst liars at the moment. Even Russia, however, can sometimes tell the truth about what is going on in Ukraine. Therefore, it is important to examine the evidence and make a determination.

You say that regular Russian troops have not been moved into Ukraine for combat operations. I showed you evidence that this is untrue. Specifically the 5th Tank Brigade's involvement in Debaltseve. What is your answer to this specific information?

 

The illegal ousting of Viktor was not right, The people of Eastern Ukraine didn't get a vote, But that is not what is the main problem. If you go full ANTI-RUSSIA in a country where you can say the Russian people originated from (Eastern Ukraine) Of course people will want to rebel, The DPR/LPR was a skeleton at first, Of course us Russians naturally will come fight on the side of our countrymen. Sure you can say Putin lied about the "Green men" But please keep in mind you can say all of Crimea (around 90%) voted yes. I have family members living there, I am actually originally from Crimea and Rostov areas. (my family)

We do not know how many people in Crimea voted to join Russia because the vote was rigged and people who wanted to vote to stay with Ukraine could not do so. Leaked information from the Kremlin states the number was actually around 60% or perhaps a bit more. I forget. Whatever it is, I do believe the majority of Crimeans would have voted to join Russia if the referendum was not faked. But it was, so we do not know what the real number is.

 

OSCE doesn't care about anything, When the plane was shot down (you know the one that Mr. Putin's army shot down according to the West) there was a delay for inspectors to arrive on scene!

Yes, because the local thugs made sure they couldn't get there. They also prevented the Dutch from getting there.

 

The Russian Federation showed proof that it was not the rebels who shot it down, But infact the Ukrainian armed forces that did.

You mean the Photoshopped "satellite" image and the laughable theory that a SU-25 shot it down? Or do you mean the impossible distance a Ukrainian Buk would have to travel to hit the plane?

I don't know about you, but I was watching the reports of the movement of the Buk through separatist territory before the plane was shot down. Then MH-17 was shot down and I watched the separatist sources claim they had shot down a Ukrainian plane. Then I watched them try to remove evidence of such claims.

What were you doing that day?

 

You are overlooking the bombing of civilian areas that are in rebel control, The rebels like to bomb themselves?

Sometimes, yes. They also likely fired mortars into Donetsk (Russia).

 

And even before the UA airforce was doing strafe runs onto residential areas! Don't forget those.

The only strafing of a residential area that I know of was Luhansk when a SU-25 (IIRC) was stupid enough to engage a ZSU-22 that was located in a residential area. Civilians died as a result, but soon the number of Russian supplied anti-aircraft weapons (MANPAD, ZSU-22, and various anti-air missile systems) meant Ukraine couldn't conduct offensive air operations.

 

In the end even if Russia is fueling this war what will they gain?! Absolutely nothing, Eastern Ukraine cannot join the Russian Federation, Russia knows this. If it does great for me, I can visit my family and friends there, Without fear.

Russia's desire is to have the two republics stay a part of Ukraine, but be controlled from Moscow instead of Kiev. This would keep Ukraine internally divided and weaken its ability to be a nation independent of Russia. It is what Russia has tried to do since last Spring and is still trying to do today.

 

This is totally unfair, You totally ignore Russian media sources because of a bias look onto the conflict. P.S. if you need me to list Russian Military units that can be deployed in Ukraine without needing to take units from the other side of Siberia you can ask me.

How about you try to explain why you think the 5th Tank Brigade was not in Debaltseve? You can use any source of information you like, but you must challenge the evidence that is in hand.

And you could also try to explain how it is that Ukraine's 2014 summer offensive, as it was about to succeed, suddenly got thrown back with such force within a couple of days. Or how it is that "separatist" forces appeared behind Ukrainian lines without breaking through them first? Or how Mariupol was advanced upon from Donetsk. Or any number of other incidents that prove that Russian ground forces have been directly involved in the war.

Steve

[MikeyD]

 

 (you know the one that Mr. Putin's army shot down according to the West)

Considering the number of foreign national innocents that Russian proxies butchered in that incident I find this remark in particularly bad taste.

[BTR]

More of this again. I find it interesting that Steve trusts SBU sources which have been known to falsify their information (casualty lists for example) as if they were fact. Especially information that has been released to the public. Also the smug attitude of some members here is quite off puting. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by BTR

[Red Rage]

Considering the number of foreign national innocents that Russian proxies butchered in that incident I find this remark in particularly bad taste.

 

 

You must be connected with the closed investigation somehow. 

[Nidan1]

I this conversation starting to get political?

[Vanir Ausf B]

I this conversation starting to get political?

 

I see Russians. I see guys named Steve.

 

[Battlefront.com]

More of this again. I find it interesting that Steve trusts SBU sources which have been known to falsify their information (casualty lists for example) as if they were fact. Especially information that has been released to the public. Also the smug attitude of some members here is quite off puting.

And the predictable, knee jerk, anti-intellectual, head-burried-a-mile-deep-in-the-sand response is something I find "quite off putting".

I did not use SBU as my only source, though apparently you didn't notice that. I also used open source material, Western journalists, Russian journalists, Russian advocacy groups, and Russian soldier's own documentation (VK, interviews, etc). Above all I used commons sense. I suppose the SBU might be powerful enough to fake all of this information, but I do not think that highly of the SBU. I am surprised you do.

Again, anybody here want to disprove the information of the presence of 5th Tank Brigade in Debaltseve? If the information is faked, it should be pretty easy. If there isn't a legitimate counter argument, then there can be only one conclusion. Which is the obvious one... regular Russian ground combat units are participating in combat in Ukraine.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I this conversation starting to get political?

Yes, it always goes that way because the ones trying to denny reality have little choice since they can't challenge the evidence. The false alternate reality should not be condoned any more than someone taking the position the Holocaust didn't happen.

In a discussion like this there are generally five D options:

Debate

Dismiss

Distract

Derail

Destroy

If someone can't Debate, then it's one or a combination of the other techniques. It usually winds up with Destroy if someone (like me) doesn't give up trying to have a Debate.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

You must be connected with the closed investigation somehow.

No, he is just looking at the evidence and coming to the most logical conclusion. Since the Russian government's two ENTIRELY different official alternatives have both been categorically proven to be faked/impossible, one is left with only one viable explanation. And that is a Russian military Buk was responsible for the downing of MH-17. As it so happens, this is also the most logical cause since Russia was flooding Ukraine with anti-aircraft weapons at the time in an attempt to shut down the Ukrainian airforce (which it did successfully do).

BTW, I do not consider the Russian and Ukrainian conspiracy theory alternatives to be viable. On the Russian side they claim that either the CIA or the SBU (or both working together) shot down MH-17. On the Ukrainian side they claim that Russia was attempting to shoot down an Aeroflot passenger airline and instead hit MH-17 by mistake. Both are attempts to portray this tragedy as a deliberate "false flag" murder. Since a mistake is more likely than a complex conspiracy, it the downing of MH-17 was most likely unintentional.

Steve