Suicidal acts or plain stupidity

[rwcanuck]

While playing a PBEM game with Lt. Bull a strange occurrence happened that both of us feel should be addressed on the forum.

I had a bazooka team nicely concealed in a fochole beside a road in the 'Last Defence' scenario. A German H/T rumbles down the road and comes into the target range of the bazooka team which pleases me. Then, low and behold, the team jumps up runs into the open field and takes a shot at the H/T! They miss and are consequently killed instantly by returning MG fire from the H/T.

Has this happened to anyone else? I have had Schrecks fired from foxholes so it seems strange that a Bazooka team would do that.

In CC3 if you ignored men they did strange things like running into the open to be massacred...now I have seen it in CM!

Maybe this is just a glitch in the beta demo and will not in the final product...overall the game is excellent.

[SS_PanzerLeader]

BAZOOKA guys suck :-P

I am playing a game with John H and I literally shot 6 times in one turn at a range no greater than 100 meters; three of which were at 64. They all missed completely, the turn before that I shot about the same amount of rounds at another stug from a second story window at less than 50 meters and didnt hit crap.

Then he gets a shot on my tank with a schrek at over 100 meters and the tank goes boom first shot. I HATE ALLIES god knows how we won the war :-P

------------------

SS_PanzerLeader....out

[This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 12-23-99).]

[Doug Beman]

[Topic shift in progress]

I had a similar disappointing experience in CE playing as Allies. I drove the 2 veteran Shermans forward on the right side and parked them at the right-front edge of the forested area. There are some handy little dips in the terrain from which I can see the road but am hull-down. About Turn 3 a StuG (SURPRISE!) comes trundling along down the road; my Shermans see it and begin firing away at a range of like 300m. They each fired once and missed. The StuG began turning to lay its gun on target. Each Sherman fired a second shot, both missing. At the same time the StuG fired and missed. Before either Sherman could fire again the StuG killed one Sherman, then the second Sherman missed with its third shot, and was killed by the StuG.

TWO veteran Shermans missing 5 shots on a slow-moving (and then stationary) target? I couldn't believe it, so (after losing badly) set up again.

THIS time, the Shermans managed to miss SEVEN shots between them; the StuG took 4 shots, killed one Sherman and disabled the gun on the other.

In that same second battle my last 2 Shermans were destroyed by PS shots at about 180m, while the PS team involved was being fired upon by 2 squads, and HQ and a M1919 gun installed in the big house on the forward-left (US) side.

Allies DO suck.

DjB

[SS_PanzerLeader]

HEHE I could add to this with more horror stories from the ALLIED front - but what is awesome about this game is we will be able to compensate by sheer numbers as was done in WW2 :-P

------------------

SS_PanzerLeader....out

[Freyland]

Just a note:

In a recent undertaking of Reisberg as the Allis, my shermans completely outshot the 88's on one-on-one battles, no lossess for me. When I replayed the scenario as the Germans to test an infantry theory, one 88 single-handedly destroyed all 4 shermans. Am I just good, or is there another (more likely) alternative?

Jonathan

[Mike D]

My friend and I have also been playing the Chance Encounter scenario. I as the Germans and he as the Americans. He was unfortunate enough to lose 2 of his 5 shermans to my panzerschrecks because he got too close. That left it 3 on 3 for his Shermans vs. my Stugs. He saw the same thing happen as Doug though. In one of the one on one Sherman stug encounters I come up over the hill, but am only partially hull down at best. We both fire and I miss, but he hits. Takes out one of my crew members and the stug buttons up. But from that point on the luck / crappy Sherman picture dramatically shifts. I get off another shot and take out his gun. His sherman is therefore pretty much useless. It takes me about 4 more shots on the next turn though (1 misses and another glances off) before I take this lowly Sherman out. Next, Sherman number 2 and stug number 2 have it out. I again creep up over the hill and he is at a lower elevation and has is side turned to me. Before I can get off my first shot he rotates his turret and fires, but misses. My guy finishes bringing gun to bear and fires and hits, but doesn't knock him out. He gets off another shot and misses way high again. I then get off second shot and take him out. 3rd Sherman vs. stug battle then takes place on the other side of the map. He is creeping out of the trees in hunt mode and I'm creeping up once again from small hill to the left of the church. In this exchange he gets off about 4 shots all of which miss. In the process I take him out. He also states that at least one of the tanks that missed a lot was one of his veteran crews. In fact he said something to the affect that they must have earned that status fighting the Italians, because the certainly sucked in comparison to the shooting accuracy of the German crews. I had all of my guys hunting up over the crest of the hill at which time they then stopped and fired when they acquired their targets. Up to this point this fact and partial hull down status is the only reason I can give my friend for why all 3 of my stugs survived while all 3 of his Shermans had been converted to coffins.

Result:

I've heard nothing but complaints from him ever since. And honestly, I can understand to some degree why. Do the shermans really suck this bad???? He seems to think so, and perhaps at least is somewhat justified in doing so. But he also now claims that what he has seen this same occurence in the other 2 games that we've played where the americans totally suck and are worthless as well. While the Germans he now refers to as "invincible". Furthermore because of this and a few other minor problems that I'm sure are mostly due to it being beta code, he is comparing the game to Close Combat and says that it is just as screwed up. I don't think that this is true, but can't really convince him otherwise. Part of his reasoning behind all of this is that he also had the Shermans firing on my guys in the church and from his viewpoint it didn't seem to kill anyone or do any good in suppressing them. Again, I can somewhat agree with him. While it did kill some of my MG teams in there and even killed half of one, it didn't seem to be very effective to fire his Shermans at the guys in the church. Shouldn't a 75mm gun from 500m range or less at least be able to lay down some fairly effective fire against guys in a building like this?

Bottom line is that he pretty much thinks that the game is sub-par at best, and I can't say anything to convince him otherwise. Given the large number of misses I've seen from American tanks I'm beginning to wonder myself. Did the shorter barrel 75mm guns in the basic sherman really shoot so wildly and inaccurately as they seem to in the game? Are the germans guns and crews really that much better?

Maybe most of this has been "fixed" and/or tweaked in the final game and we just havn't seen it yet??? I hope so. Or if not, maybe someone can give a reasonable explanation as to the inaccuracy / ineffectiveness of the Shermans fire. At really long range I could buy into this, but all these battles were at 300-500m or so. Seems like Shermans should do better than this at that range.

Regards,

Mike D

aka Mikester

[Boris Balaban]

In the good old days of play Panzer Blitz unless you had a 6-1 odds you had a chance of missing the target. Very disappointing to bring all that firepower and the target gets away.

I think in WW2 Bazookas were not very accurate.

When I use to play a game called SNIPER and you had a bazooka, you almost had to have the HT or tank beside you to get a hit.

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Well to be honest allied losses per tank kill were a horrific ratio. From what I understand from the books I've read, allies lost an average of 5 tanks to every german heavy tank destroyed. Usually the loss they encountered was actually due to Air (jabos).

[This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 12-23-99).]

[Major Tom]

Actually, I have had about equal luck for both sides. Both bad and good. On Chance Encounter I tend to lose between 35-100% of vehicles. I have had times as the Germans where all of my StuG's were taken out with 1-2 Shermans left. Schreck's take the rest out. I have had StuG's lose out on gun duels with Shermans. Other times they have won. On Last Defence, I had no Hellcats left, with 1 StuG running around free savaging my troops. I had 1 Bazooka team left with 3 Shots left. I missed on my first, and killed it on my second. I have had about as much luck with Bazookas as with Schrecks. I haven't had many problems about troops running out of cover to fire, occasionally with tanks moving to worse firing positions and getting killed, but, never with my troops. However, how many times have you guys encountered these problems? Maybe it is just a fluke, or a randmon occurence?

[Boris Balaban]

One thing showing us is you will never have the same outcome if you play the same scenario the same way or try to.

This is why in this game you can be a poor player with lady luck on your side and you can win. I have played other games head to head and if you do not know how to play and use your resorces you will definently lose.

[TZEENCH]

In a recent PBEM in last defence the german opfor had a stug by the wooden house in the field right next to the Objective flag near the paved road.

Turn 10 arrived and the tank just sat there and turned 180 and gave me a Perrfectt target and needless to say it didnt last long after that.

PS---

The american 50.cal ROCKS... 3 HT kills

From playing last defence as the us and Chance enounter as the us, They arent crack units or anything special, if used right and in combined arms you can OWN! the axis..

I have a nother PBEM going in chance incounter on t10ish and all three stugs are burning and no - repeat NO losses to the shermans. Inf dont last long aganst 3 grouped shermans with 2 squads of inf as backup....

[This message has been edited by TZEENCH (edited 12-23-99).]

[Lindan]

I played chance encounter the x-th time in a row now and I can't say that those Shermans don't hit anything. I lost all my stugs in my last 3 or 4 battles, all of them to the Shermans, zooks didn't hit or bounced off. The fire from the Shermans was quite accurate even at long ranges and the 2nd or 3rd shot took a stug out most of the time. The Stug III's always were one of my favourite units in SP, because they look cool, hit hard and are reasonably armored but at the moment my attitude is changing a bit. But well, perhaps it's just bad luck or stupidity on my part..

[Fionn]

rwcanuck,

Well, I personally have never seen that happen in a game. Was the guy being fired on?

If he didn't panic a little or something then I'd say you either issued a movement order and forgot about it or its an AI bug.

In any case I've never seen this occuring in the betas I have...

Doug,

It's normal human nature to blame poor performance on "crappy equipment etc". While some of it comes down to people not using the tools properly most of these issues come down to simply having some bad luck.

I will make one point though. IF you have a Sherman parked behind a hill and it is hull-down to the road then, almost certainly, a StuG ON that road will be hull-down to the firing Sherman. Since the StuG is MUCH lower than the Sherman the StuG actually becomes MUCH harder to hit when hull-down than the Sherman.

This is a little knowledge I've been using to great effect in close games of CE to create virtually unhittable StuGs .

Actually, a quick little calculation here makes the hull-down StuG at least 40% less likely to be hit than a hull-down Sherman

40%.. That has a HUGE impact on the game as you can imagine.

When you see that, on average, a stationary tank could hit another FULLY EXPOSED and stationary tank at 500 metres after 3 shots we can see that, on average, a tank would need a minimum of 6 shots (actually more since the probability of hitting a 50% smaller target is much less than 50%) to hit a hull-down tank at 500 metres.

This and some other little tactical twists which I can see from the posts haven't been fully recognised are accounting for some of the dismay here.

As for the Shermans being bad... Well, I wiped out all 3 StuGs by the 30th second of the second turn in one game of CE. One of my Shermans received a hit but that was all the damage I suffered.

I made sure to have hull-down Shermans facing hull-up StuGs. I more than halved their chances of hitting me whilst maximising my chances of hitting them. This payed off since I got quick kills and they didn't.

Also, many people seem to be pitting 1 vs 1. This is wrong.

If we simply assume that a hull-down vehicle requires 4 shots to kill at 300 metres (pretty reasonable) then we can see that after firing 2 shots EACH TANK will have a 50% chance of having killed the other (I know that's not right but it is just a ballpark figure to illustrate a point).

Also, remember that while a hull-down Sherman might take 4 shots to hit a hull-down StuG ( a la my little calculation above) would take roughly 6 shots to hit. It's quick and dirty math and not fully accurate but gets the gist across.

IF you get TWO StuGs firing at one Sherman then THEY have a fifty % chance of killing the Sherman with their first joint volley while he has only a 25% chance of hitting either of them at best.

1 StuG vs 1 Sherman is essentially an even battle in which each tank has an equal chance of winning (assuming both are hull-up).

By ganging up on the Sherman you ensure :

a) your odds of killing him are TWICE the odds of him killing one of yours. This means you are more likely to come out of the battle with 1 Sherman kill and no losses.

IF the Sherman DOES kill one of your StuGs the other will already have fired a couple of shots, ranged the Sherman and will be very likely to knock it out before the Sherman can hit it.

In a game of CE I killed 4 Shermans and have lost two StuGs so far (its ongoing).. 3 of the Shermans I killed were killed in situations where 2 StuGs confronted 1 Sherman isolated from the other US units. In fact it seems that the US didn't even spot one StuG which killed 2 of the Shermans since it was in an overwatch position.

Anyways, the 4th Sherman was killed in a situation where both my StuG and it were hull-down (thus giving me the advantage).

My point is that by maximising your advantages you can win with either tank.

The Sherman has a rotatable turret so you should NEVER approach a StuG from in front, you should split and attempt to bring fire to bear from both its flank. Even if you lose one of the two flanking tanks you can be sure the other will kill it.

Doug,

The StuG fired 3 shots and got two kills. The Shermans only fired 5 in total. Sure the StuG got a little lucky there but that isn't an unrealistic situation (I wish mine would do it though ). Sometimes the luck of the draw just works out that way.. I would ask you to check whether it was hull-down to your tanks at the time. If it was I'd basically forget about hitting it.

A hull--down Jagdpanzer is a terribly difficult weapon to kill. I took one StuG to the top of a hill in CE, went hull-down and sniped and killed 4 Shermans gathered in the wheatfield in front of me. I scored something like 6 hits and was missed close to 20 times. I didn't find it at all unrealistic. I merely felt it was a reward for some good tactics and intimate knowledge of the weapons systems I was employing.

MikeD,

Those were all 1 on 1 battles right? And in most of them the StuGs were hull-down while the Shermans weren't right?

If this is so then the StuGs had about twice the chance of surviving each one on one encounter.

According to you 3 Shermans were hit and killed while one of your StuGs was hit. That's a 1:3 ratio right there which is within the bounds of possibility.

Anyways, your friend is just dissapointed by bad performance.He's blaming CM for a run of bad luck but, unfortunately, bad luck strikes us all at times.

As for the HE into the church. a couple of 75s firing into a big stone church aren't going to be wiping out squads and teams. They will cause a couple of casualties here and there but, until the building collapses, nothing too major.

Perhaps unrealistic expectations are also to blame?

I can't say exactly what happened since I haven't seen each situation but I can say that StuGs are fearsome opponents once they go hull-down and that I think a lot of what is going on is that people aren't making vehicle-specific decisions

The StuG has to be handled very, very differently from a Sherman. I've also seen a major tendency to fight 1 on 1. I generally try to isolate an enemy tank and gang up on it so as to prevent an "even 50/50 fight".

In open ground a StuG and SHerman squaring off each have a roughly equal chance of winning. However, if 2 StuGs face 1 Sherman than the StuGs are now at least twice as likely to win as the Sherman.

I wouldn't expect any "fixes".. If I was you I would simply have your opponent play as the Germans next game, get the US tanks into hull-down positions around the church and the hill beside it and blow his StuGs apart before he gets into hull-down positions.

That is the best way I can think to show him the StuGs are "invincible".

You should be able to kill all StuGs by the end of the 2nd turn with just a little luck.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 12-23-99).]

[Greg Deych]

Fionn,

I'm rather bothered by the invocation of Lady Luck that seems to crop up so often. If I wanted to pursue her favors, I'd play Tournamet Cribbage or something. To put it bluntly, what sort of tactics can one apply to the game if 50% of the time things go one way, and 50% they go the other way? I'm certainly aware that I'm hyperbolising, but I think Steve and Charles ought to tone down Ye Olde Randome Numbers Generator.

[Boris Balaban]

We call it Lady Luck from gambling when the gambler thinks that the pretty lady by him helps him win.

But really I am not an expert in shooting a gun and if you take any person (who is not a Robin Hood) and ask them to shoot a target then shoot at the last hole made and I am sure that they will miss. Only by luck will they shoot a perfect shot.

That is my opinion.

[John Hough]

Um, you want them to tone down realism in favor of more predictable outcomes in a gamey manner? I've been reading a bunch of ww2 history stuff lately, and that sort of thing happened. Sometimes a company of shermans would show up and get completely destroyed without doing any damage, sometimes a single sherman would take out 3-4 panthers.

What you can do is maximize your chances. And if you engage one sherman 3 on 1 with stugs, and you lose all three, you take your lumps and get on with life. It sucks, but it is just a game, after all...

-John

[Major Tom]

Luck, is a theoretical device. It is just created to fill in the oddities of the world. Being lucky means that the chance that something would happen being rare actually happens is not neccesarily luck, but, just a result of the draw of the numbers. Indeed, these things did happen. Fionn's tactics are sound, I have tried them, and they work. I read a 'German Panzer manuel' (if indeed they actually had one) stating the tactics one should use in Armoured warfare. I will not let everyone into all of their stupendous advice (which really apply to CM!) but one of them was to engage as many guns on your enemy as you can. Even if you are outnumbered you can always get local superiority if you plan correctly. I perfer ambushes to direct long range assault. You tend to get full surprise at point blank flank range, and you rarely miss!

[Goanna]

I agree with Fionn and Major Tom. I had my ass kicked repeatedly by the Shermans early on in CE when trying to go one on one with them. Since then, I try to give the AI plenty to look at when I am ready to engage an M4 with a StuG. If I can't get another StuG pointed at him, then I pop up with schreck or close assault some troopers at the same time to try and confuse him (her?). This has tended to be pretty effective.

As far as a bit of luck goes, I like it in the way it is. There are a number of documented stories from books I have read of tank commanders talking about their incredible luck, and I tend to think it balnces out. I have won CE with the Germans even after loosing all my armour early, even though I thought I was gonna get trounced.

I did this by going back to basics in my army training. What is the army there to do? Take the land. When I took the land I could get ahold of early, and then made those SOBs come and take it from me, I finally won out using ambushes and surely some luck, given that one schreck team hiding in the rubble of a building got 3 M4s. Let me tell you that that fella is wearing and iron cross in my book, be it luck or skill.

I often say in my work "I'd rather be lucky than talented most days" and it turns out to be true.

------------------

desert rat wannabe

[not here]

Sound advice from Fionn and Major Tom. I have been trying to use these, more on intuition than formal statistics, for some time now, with some success.

One small tactical question: How do you really know when you've truly achieved hull-down vis-a-vis a certain (enemy) location?

The number 1 view has a peculiar center for armored vehicles- as you increment forward, it comes out of the muzzle and seems to drop to the ground. You can't really use this view until you've reached the actual coordinate, either, and then it may be too late.

The #5 overhead fails to show enough terrain subtlety to pick the spot, either. I am never sure when I have just enough hull "up" to sight and fire, without exposing more of the vehicle than absolutely necessary. As a result, I often pick a spot that seems just a little too exposed and Hunt up to it, hoping the TC will react on his own. (He usually does- but if you're not sure where the enemy is, this is a risky strategy- they might see you first}.

I wish I could choose my parking place as accurately as the real commander could! Is there a trick for this?

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Yah Fionn in the one game where ya got the two stugs in 30 second s with the one hit you forgot to mention you ahd five firing on the target; also that mine was on fast mode so didnt return fire. Also the stationary one that did return fire hit your tank with the first shot. :0P

------------------

SS_PanzerLeader....out

[Guest Big Time Software]

Interesting thread. The fact is that Lady Luck is the Queen of the Battlefield. And she doesn't have a particular favorite in any one case

The math in CM that determines hits and such is VERY realistic. If you miss, it is realistic, even if you can't find an explanation for it.

I can't remember exactly, but on average a hit was obtained for every 3 shots fired from a WWII tank (even on a target range!). The reason is that the sights on WWII tanks did not assure a hit if lined up. Falling short and shooting long are more probably than shooting bang on. Heck, I've even seen training footage of M1A1s that miss, and they have loads of fancy gadgets to make them hit more often. And nobody is shooting at them

Tank gunnery is just like shooting a rifle. If I line up a rifle on a clearly marked target (say a standard match target) in theory I can hit an "X" each and every shot. In theory. But in reality only the best of the best can do that consistantly day in and day out. And this is one person, highly trained and practiced, with a fine tuned weapon, and as much distraction as a golfer on the PGA. Now. Start shouting at the perfect shooter, kick him in the ass just as he goes to squeeze the trigger, move the target sideways just as he shoots, etc. and see how often he doesn't even hit the paper.

We could EASILY make your tanks hit more often, just as we could make a rifle squad take out a Tiger at 5000m We aren't going to do either because they are not what CM is about.

Steve

[Guest srare]

I was playing last defense as the US against AI and managed to sneak a bazooka team, on the right side of the white setup area, through and up a small dip in the forest so it could see open ground. I thought the computer might run ht through that area and wanted to take some out. Well, it sent a StuG and the Tiger! The StuG was in plain view with the Tiger just turning the corner. I targeted the StuG at 100m and watched. The team did nothing for 2 turns - while the StuG was pounding some buildings not moving. I guess they will not attack if they are hiding. By this time the Tiger had joined the StuG and was actually closer. I checked LOS to get an idea of my chances - when the StuG was selected I think I had a "Good" chance to kill, when I moved it over to the Tiger I had an 80% chance to hit but a "None" chance to kill. I decided to stick with the StuG . The next turn the 'Zookers' jumped up and took a shot at the StuG - first one a miss, started to reload and both the Tiger and StuG started turning their turrets to face them. Finished reloading and another shot - miss. The StuG is now backing up and a Smoke round appears in front of him, I do not know how it got there. The Bazooka had lost LOS to the StuG so he turned to the Tiger, he was starting to be fired on by the Tiger at this point. He finished reloading under heavy fire then took a shot and ..... Knocked the Tiger out with a Lower Hull penetration!!! One shot and it was gone! I guess even if during the orders phase a target has "none" chance to kill that you still do have a chance to kill it.

On another issue with the luck/tank discussion. I have found some of the scenarios get much, much more difficult if you get the short end of the stick on the Tank battles. I have played Riesberg three times. The last time I played the Germans and lost both of my Guns in the process of killing 2 US Tanks. The remaining tanks pounded my buildings and rubbled some of them. It made the game much closer. I have not lost at CM yet (I have only played about 10 games and all of them have been vs. the computer) but this battle was a draw (Allies = 40, Axis = 44 Points). Just highlights the fact that it is very important to use your tanks correctly and get them in the best positions possible.

P.S. - Anyone who wants to play can send me a setup file of any scenario and side and I will then give you my setup.

ATS

[Fionn]

SS,

Nah, I was referring to another game in which I whipped the poor StuGs even more decisively

As for our game where I wiped your StuGs out that is a GREAT example of application of force. I didn't go 5 on 1 I went 2 or 3 on 1 and won easily because of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What you can do is maximize your chances.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John said it perfectly here. When every tank has a 25% chance of killing any other tank at 300 metres or so all you can do is try to maximise the odds in your favour. You do this by using tactics. That's all war is. War is prosecuted by utilising tactics to get into better shooting positions with better protection than the other guys and using these advantages to kill more of them than they kill of you.

However if you put two virtually identical tanks in a field at 500 metres and let them shoot it out then it is perfectly reasonable to find one winning 50% of engagements and the other also winning 50%. A GOOD tactician will take that 1% advantage he has and turn it into a 10% advantage.

Luck plays a part in all war. Sometimes you hit from 2 KM and sometimes you miss from 100 metres. Of course it is FAR more likely you'll hit from 100 metres than 2 km but its not guaranteed.

srare,

A zook has a very good chance of killing anything it hits, even a Tiger,. I don't know where the "none" came from but basically if it hits the tiger you should expect a kill.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[MarkEzra]

I've play several PBEM of CE (4?) I've played US each time. Three times I've slaughter the Stugs using Overwatch and 2-3 on one attacks... I guess you could say that those stugs I've been chewing on aren't worth a damn, right?. Almost finished with the fourth game...around tun 10...I evacuating my infantry (hopefully they won't all be killed) while my .50 MG (It does rock)covers them...And my 5 shermans?...Burning brightly....It's not the stugs, nor the shermans...it's not even lady luck (you do need a little in war) It's about tactics...I use the equipement the way they were used...Shermans did hunt in packs I am rewarded...I play Audie Murphy...I pay the big price....It's about my tactics...not the game engine...That's why this game is such a stand out

[Eridani]

I myself have found schrecks to be nearly useless... now, I know that its probably luck of the draw, but after playing CE as both the Americans and the germans, I have scored 5 kills with zooks and a grand total of *0* kills with shrecks (Even though I use them the same)... in fact, I have NEVER had a schrek kill an enemy tank... Zooks aren't all that great, but they work (occassionally)... More than I can say than for schrecks...

what can I say, I guess they just don't like me.

hehehe

(oh, and I've only had a screck only ever nail one of my tanks... but it really pissed me off... the loss of that tank (and subsiquent crew) was a full fifth of my casualties that battle... (25 American casualties, 220 German Casualties, a good battle nonetheless)

God you know you've played a game too much when you can CONSISTANTLY score numbers like that.

I need to start playing you all more, anyone wanna pbem?

scott.c@coolmail.net

I'm americans in CE