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Whats the best approach for clearing with infantry in MOUT


Pat O

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  Ok. So steep learning curve. I am well versed in urban combat however not in the mechanics of it in this game. I suppress I smoke and assualt. My guys get hammered once inside every time. I tried using the hunt command but they keep stopping in the roads. You veterans at this how do you best utilize the game commands to get positive results. If there is any resources on this please link. Again I have the tactics of it down but the way I am employing them ingame doesn't seem to be having positive results. thanks in advance.

 

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  Ok. So steep learning curve. I am well versed in urban combat however not in the mechanics of it in this game. I suppress I smoke and assualt. My guys get hammered once inside every time. I tried using the hunt command but they keep stopping in the roads. You veterans at this how do you best utilize the game commands to get positive results. If there is any resources on this please link. Again I have the tactics of it down but the way I am employing them ingame doesn't seem to be having positive results. thanks in advance.

I usually level the building if possible, if not supress as much as possible move an assault team within 30M perferabily behind the building, have them target briefly for 15-30 second with a 15-30 second pause. this will allow then to throw grenades and further supress. after the pause have them move quick into the first floor with a target briefly to the next floor above. also if possible go to the blindside of a building and blow the side out with a satchel. DO NOT hunt the assault needs to be quick and violent. hunt will only get your guys killed in the open. do not rely on your men spoting shoot first ask questions later. if you get a possible contact light em up you know theyre enemy.

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I usually level the building if possible, if not supress as much as possible move an assault team within 30M perferabily behind the building, have them target briefly for 15-30 second with a 15-30 second pause. this will allow then to throw grenades and further supress. after the pause have them move quick into the first floor with a target briefly to the next floor above. also if possible go to the blindside of a building and blow the side out with a satchel. DO NOT hunt the assault needs to be quick and violent. hunt will only get your guys killed in the open. do not rely on your men spoting shoot first ask questions later. if you get a possible contact light em up you know theyre enemy.

 

thanks. I will experiment with this. So let me clarify the assault order or move quickly/fast while targeting?

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thanks. I will experiment with this. So let me clarify the assault order or move quickly/fast while targeting?

put a pause in the same amount of time as your target briefly, this way they focus on firing/throwing nades instead of running to theyre death. then when they run in they are not running into theyre own HE and looking for targets . i never use assault unless im feeling lazy cause they always stop in the worst spots.

 

 

here is an example of how the macro setup for the assault team. in this situation they will continue to clear the building as long as things go well you can add a hide or target arc at the end so they take a defensive posion or whatever you like

 

http://imageshack.com/a/img540/694/VOYqC7.png

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In general the rule is shoot first ask questions later. Like he said if you have a soft spot on a contact you should light them up. It takes a lot of fire in this game to fully suppress an enemy position, just experiment with it and see how much you need. You want the enemy to be cowering on the floor, cause then they can't see you coming and they can't fire at you.

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assault command compared to quick command will only send part of the unit in at a time. Generally it is better to use the quick command and do exactly what has been suggested here.

The more bodies you get in their quickly, the faster you spot the suppressed enemy and kill them.

The one thing you do not want to do is run just a few men in and not spot them in time and see a enemy soldier recover enough to blast your men as you are looking for him.

Play enough and it will happen, just no way to make it perfect, there is always a risk.

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  Ok. So steep learning curve. I am well versed in urban combat however not in the mechanics of it in this game. I suppress I smoke and assualt. My guys get hammered once inside every time. I tried using the hunt command but they keep stopping in the roads. You veterans at this how do you best utilize the game commands to get positive results. If there is any resources on this please link. Again I have the tactics of it down but the way I am employing them ingame doesn't seem to be having positive results. thanks in advance.

 

 As much as possible you need to win the circumstances of the fight before the fight itself. If your guys on the hunt command are stopping because of fire from somewhere else than you need to deal with that before you get into a house brawl. 

 

Others have said it, the best course of action is to just level the place. Failing that suppress the upper levels with something, anything. A machine gun will do. You can split infantry into teams for clearing buildings and for lots of small structures that is the best course. For large buildings and complexes i've had good results just Assault-commanding squads through every floor. The best men to use for this job mind you are engineers, because they can create avenues of advance and can breach and clear. 

 

Ultimately though their is no right answer to CQC. This is Pvt. Timmy's job. It's your job to get the infantry to that point as unmolested as possible because they usually need to be in good shape to do it. Its a casualty-laden event unless you get abnormally lucky, so plan accordingly. 

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I got CMBS when it was released and have played as much as possible but the transition between  WWII and modern combat is huge. I'm still in a learning stage with it. In modern combat it seems you need massive amounts of suppressive fire and more smoke usage than WWII games. Also as others have stated an you can't hesitate when you're trying to neutralize a building, you've got to get in there as soon as possible. Unlike the WWII games the volume and accuracy of the fire in modern combat is deadly.

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MOUT is pretty much like any other terrain, when it comes to winning a fight. Finding enemy, fixing, (flanking - optional), finishing. The question is how to do it most efficiently. OCOKA battlefield terrain analysis still applies in MOUT.

 

Start by thinking if you actually have to clear that particular area, or you can just suppress it and bypass. If that's an objective area you have to capture, yeah, you have to clear it. Then. Expose yourself as little as possible (when approaching), while, at the same time, be ready to give back as much firepower as possible at minimal amount of time (project max DPS, if you will), to be able to win firefight. Think "combat width", from Paradox games, if you're familiar with, say, HOI3. Yours vs enemy. But here, it is multidimensional space.

 

THE best thing to do is to never allow enemy to fire at you in the first place. But that's not always possible. Total suppression is hard to achieve, and you can't suppress everything all the time.

 

Examples:

 

Enemy is in 2+ story building behind a wall. If his guys are sitting on the first floor, when you come in and breach in one point, your support assets (if positioned only behind breaching team) won't be able to fire at the enemy, that can fire at guys that breach.

 

OR, if they are in the building(or even a room) behind the building you're assaulting. Your breaching team comes inside, and gets attacked from the opposite side, and your support assets can't reach there.

 

Avoid such problematic spots. Use entry points that, upon reaching them, cannot be fired at from positions you cannot fire back at with your supporting assets, immediately.

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Some missions will explicitly warn you against trying to seize every objective or engage the enemy at every point. This should be considered in every mission though. You will not have a textbook victory every time you play. That's not how this game works. 

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There are a lot of good tips here. I follow a couple of different techniques, depending on whether or not I know/suspect the building is occupied or not.

 

First, NEVER use ASSAULT when approaching/entering a building. ASSAULT moves each team of a squad, one at a time, to the waypoint, and then to the next waypoint. If I have a 3-team squad, that's a whole lot of exposure time for the first team.

 

Instead, split off an ASSAULT TEAM. (It's in the Admin command tab.) They're the guys with the grenades and CQB weapons. 

 

If I know/suspect the building is occupied, I'll nail it with every HE weapon I can, for at least one turn. That will pin and suppress the occupants. If nothing else, the Assault Team and Covering Team will TARGET the building. (Note: if you split a squad into teams, but don't give them movement orders, they'll recombine. To prevent this, give a "false" movement order. QUICK (or anything else) with a PAUSE greater than 1 minute.) 

 

When it's time to assault, I lift the TARGET commands and use TARGET LIGHT. (TARGET uses HE, which causes friendly casualties). I make sure no heavy machineguns  use TARGET LIGHT. They will not cause friendly casualties, but they will cause suppression/pins. Not good when you're about to kick down a door. Use TARGET BRIEFLY, say, 30 seconds. Have your assault team PAUSE for 30 seconds. (Or just 15 if they need ~20 seconds or more to get adjacent to building.) The goal is to have the least delay between the lifting of TARGET orders and your assault team getting to the building.

 

Have the assault team get next to the building. If there are enemy units/exposure down the street, smoke the LOS that way so your assault team is not vulnerable to aimed fire when stacked at the target building.

 

If the wall they're on has windows, have them TARGET BRIEF into the room. Give them a 15 second PAUSE, then QUICK into the room. It is very important to add a 360 degree covered arc at the end of the QUICK order, encompassing the room plus about 5m. You don't want your guys orienting to the original target spot they had when stacked outside and looking inside. (You could give TARGET BRIEF twice, and then you'd give a 30 second PAUSE. It depends how many grenades you want to use and how much spray and pray you think is appropriate.)

 

The overwatch element(s) should engage any enemy which try to flee or shift positions within the building. Or, give them a PAUSE (to coincide with their TARGET BRIEF command) and shift positions with a move order, and from that new location use TARGET (or LIGHT, or BRIEF) to suppress other locations.

 

If your assault team stacks next to windowless wall, that's even better. Use a breach or demo charge and BLAST your way in. That'll pin/suppress most of the enemy. Same rule: 360 target arc at the endpoint with a 5m or so circle beyond the confines.

 

Now, if you want to get fancy, time a second element to charge in AFTER the first one dominates the room. Have the second element FACE a specific direction, like the room next door. (Check for interior windows and doors.)

 

 

If you don't know/suspect an enemy is there, a much more abbreviated approach would be appropriate. Less booms, more small caliber (TARGET LIGHT), more observation time from a distance. Don't try to enter (after the prep fire); just get next to it and look in. The walls will protect your guys from surprises inside. (Of course, they may get machinegunned by enemy units in a different building, but that's situational dependent.)

 

You WILL lose men in MOUT. No competent enemy will let anything else happen. Since there interior of buildings are abstracted, you should expect enemy to survive your cover fire/grenading when you enter. So, even if you follow the procedures I've written, men will die. This just minimizes it. Hopefully.

 

The timing is something you'll learn with more play. If you have a "bad" entry, save the game and replay your orders phase until you find a timing which works. That kind of repetition is the best way to learn.

 

YMMV.

 

Ken

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few things. 15-30 seconds of target briefly with explodey weapons then tiny move order and target lite for mg suppressive fire only. one assault team rushes the house and either paauses at the threshold of door or another team does so while a smaller scout team run inside. i always try to have heavy weapons support in place before crossing each street and attacking. this means deployed AGS OR MK19S, sniper teams, lmgs,hmgs, and often when you split squads one half has the heavier weapons e.g. belt fed mgs for Ukr or whatever those and other heavier weapons i place on top floors where possible ready to have as many units as possible open up once the enemy begins firing at troops rushing the buildings. finally a lot can be said for falling back and shooting at few atgms or spgs or mbt main guns into buildings. i also liberally prep areas with a creeping barrage of 122,152 mm fire that i plan my men to enter within next ten min. if i feel i can enter a block and therefore flabk the enemy and figure he.s weaker on the lateral blocks ill try to use smoke to box off the combat area in question from outside fire from the enemy

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CMSF Tutotrial on how to assault a building:

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/82077-assaulting-a-building-fierce-and-agille/

 

The same things still apply to CMBS.

 

 

  Ok. So steep learning curve. I am well versed in urban combat however not in the mechanics of it in this game. I suppress I smoke and assualt. My guys get hammered once inside every time. I tried using the hunt command but they keep stopping in the roads. You veterans at this how do you best utilize the game commands to get positive results. If there is any resources on this please link. Again I have the tactics of it down but the way I am employing them ingame doesn't seem to be having positive results. thanks in advance.

 

A few thoughts on you post:

 

If possible, dont enter a building you expect to be filled with bad guys. My tactic for taking a building i expect to be occupied is to first recon by fire. A 3 man infantry team gets an order to fire a Target Briefly mission for 30 secs and then, if anything fires back, i hit the building with something HE-ish. A few bursts of 30mm will do the job nicely. In general it's a good idea to properly prepare buildings with 30mm if you want to assault them. Then i send in my guys to check out the corpses. If that is not an option, i order at least a platoon of infantry to fire a Target Light mission on the whole building i want to occupy. Then i send in an assault team (you can split the team off the squad using the Assault button under the Administrative tab). The assault team gets the oder to enter the room and then immediatly supress the adjunct room with a 30 secs Target Briefly order. This is to make sure that anything in the adjunct room is immedialtly supressed and/or killed. For maneuvering inside a building i usually use 2 assault teams with quick commands and 15-30 second pauses between each move. It takes a bit of exercise to get the timings for a proper bounding overwatch right, but it it is possible and it works well for me. The most important thing is though to ensure that at all times there is a significant overwatch element outside the building that can immediatley kill any ambushers your assault teams might run into .

 

Also, i dont use smoke when in am assaulting a building. The reason is that the smoke will obscure the view of the overwatch elements and my assault team will be on its own once it has entered the building, and that is pretty much a death sentence if they run into an ambush. I also dont use the hunt command in buildings for the reason you mentioned in your post.

 

EDIT:

Human opponents will make excessive use of short covered arcs and ambushes in MOUT terrain, a tactic at which the AI isnt particularily good at. I also agreee with c3ks line:

 

You WILL lose men in MOUT. No competent enemy will let anything else happen. Since there interior of buildings are abstracted, you should expect enemy to survive your cover fire/grenading when you enter. So, even if you follow the procedures I've written, men will die. This just minimizes it. Hopefully.

 

You will lose men in MOUT. There is no way around it. Dont be bothered too much by casualties, as long as you complete the mission, you have done a good job.

 

EDIT2:

 

On a side note, due to beeing fully equipped with modern body armor, US & Russian infantry in CMBS is much more resistent to 20-30mm HE than the Syrian infantry in CMSF. You should keep that in mind when preparing a building for an assault.

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Ok. So steep learning curve. I am well versed in urban combat however not in the mechanics of it in this game. I suppress I smoke and assualt. My guys get hammered once inside every time. I tried using the hunt command but they keep stopping in the roads. You veterans at this how do you best utilize the game commands to get positive results. If there is any resources on this please link. Again I have the tactics of it down but the way I am employing them ingame doesn't seem to be having positive results. thanks in advance.

If your boys get hammered once there inside, you haven't put enough suppressive fire in. You really want to light the building and any overwatch positions up :-)

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If you are playing as Russia, you amass your Comrades a few blocks away into a group of about 300 or so heads, then with a collective "URA" you 'fast move' them into the building in question. Job done.

 

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Usually what works for me is avoiding the door and blowing a hole in a wall with a demolition charge. As long as its not an especially big building it should suppress the enemy enough for you to shoot 'em while cowering. If its a big building and the enemy are at the far end when you blow the wall things might become rather messy.  :)

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Lots of direct and indirect fire, preferably over 100mm in diameter, but smaller ones are okay as substitute. I prefer shooting buildings into a big pile of small pebbles before going in (kicking dirt and mopping up the survivors). :D

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assault command compared to quick command will only send part of the unit in at a time. Generally it is better to use the quick command and do exactly what has been suggested here.

The more bodies you get in their quickly, the faster you spot the suppressed enemy and kill them.

The one thing you do not want to do is run just a few men in and not spot them in time and see a enemy soldier recover enough to blast your men as you are looking for him.

Play enough and it will happen, just no way to make it perfect, there is always a risk.

I beleive this is what has been occuring. Or they enter to slowly and enemy recovers.

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There are a lot of good tips here. I follow a couple of different techniques, depending on whether or not I know/suspect the building is occupied or not.

 

First, NEVER use ASSAULT when approaching/entering a building. ASSAULT moves each team of a squad, one at a time, to the waypoint, and then to the next waypoint. If I have a 3-team squad, that's a whole lot of exposure time for the first team.

 

Instead, split off an ASSAULT TEAM. (It's in the Admin command tab.) They're the guys with the grenades and CQB weapons. 

 

If I know/suspect the building is occupied, I'll nail it with every HE weapon I can, for at least one turn. That will pin and suppress the occupants. If nothing else, the Assault Team and Covering Team will TARGET the building. (Note: if you split a squad into teams, but don't give them movement orders, they'll recombine. To prevent this, give a "false" movement order. QUICK (or anything else) with a PAUSE greater than 1 minute.) 

 

When it's time to assault, I lift the TARGET commands and use TARGET LIGHT. (TARGET uses HE, which causes friendly casualties). I make sure no heavy machineguns  use TARGET LIGHT. They will not cause friendly casualties, but they will cause suppression/pins. Not good when you're about to kick down a door. Use TARGET BRIEFLY, say, 30 seconds. Have your assault team PAUSE for 30 seconds. (Or just 15 if they need ~20 seconds or more to get adjacent to building.) The goal is to have the least delay between the lifting of TARGET orders and your assault team getting to the building.

 

Have the assault team get next to the building. If there are enemy units/exposure down the street, smoke the LOS that way so your assault team is not vulnerable to aimed fire when stacked at the target building.

 

If the wall they're on has windows, have them TARGET BRIEF into the room. Give them a 15 second PAUSE, then QUICK into the room. It is very important to add a 360 degree covered arc at the end of the QUICK order, encompassing the room plus about 5m. You don't want your guys orienting to the original target spot they had when stacked outside and looking inside. (You could give TARGET BRIEF twice, and then you'd give a 30 second PAUSE. It depends how many grenades you want to use and how much spray and pray you think is appropriate.)

 

The overwatch element(s) should engage any enemy which try to flee or shift positions within the building. Or, give them a PAUSE (to coincide with their TARGET BRIEF command) and shift positions with a move order, and from that new location use TARGET (or LIGHT, or BRIEF) to suppress other locations.

 

If your assault team stacks next to windowless wall, that's even better. Use a breach or demo charge and BLAST your way in. That'll pin/suppress most of the enemy. Same rule: 360 target arc at the endpoint with a 5m or so circle beyond the confines.

 

Now, if you want to get fancy, time a second element to charge in AFTER the first one dominates the room. Have the second element FACE a specific direction, like the room next door. (Check for interior windows and doors.)

 

 

If you don't know/suspect an enemy is there, a much more abbreviated approach would be appropriate. Less booms, more small caliber (TARGET LIGHT), more observation time from a distance. Don't try to enter (after the prep fire); just get next to it and look in. The walls will protect your guys from surprises inside. (Of course, they may get machinegunned by enemy units in a different building, but that's situational dependent.)

 

You WILL lose men in MOUT. No competent enemy will let anything else happen. Since there interior of buildings are abstracted, you should expect enemy to survive your cover fire/grenading when you enter. So, even if you follow the procedures I've written, men will die. This just minimizes it. Hopefully.

 

The timing is something you'll learn with more play. If you have a "bad" entry, save the game and replay your orders phase until you find a timing which works. That kind of repetition is the best way to learn.

 

YMMV.

 

Ken

This type of explanation was exactly what I was looking. For. Thank you very much to everyone for alternatives to implementing mout strategies in this game. Last Question. When Using vehicles to suppress a 2nd floor while assaulting the first. Obviously mk-19 or any other he can cause blue on blue is the same true for .50 cal or 12.7mm. Also can I continue to suppress the 2nd floor as I enter the first floor without a suppression penalty to my entry team? I can experiment but if someone has done the work thought I would ask.

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Thank you to all who provided assistance. Thank you for the laughs on the russian video and the responses for in game. I am brand new to combat mission games but not combat so it's nice to see folks helping out with the greenhorns

 

Edited my previous post didn't post up when I refreshed the page so I put my question up a second time.

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<snip> do I get a suppression penalty on my guys If I continue to suppress second floor with 50 cal or 12.7mm, and do I get blue on blue or freindly suppression if the vehicle is a IFV firing 25mm or the soviet counterpart. <snip> 

.50 caliber and above will suppress and kill friendly troops.  Friendly fire smaller than .50 caliber will suppress your own troops.  If your friendly troops enter the second floor they will take suppression and KIAs.

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Fire at a second storey while you're making entry on the ground floor of the same face of the building will tend to inflict some suppression on your entry team, but not as much as if it was actually into their current location. Suppression from bullets hitting in an adjacent location seems to be about half that of fire into their actual location. And, as has been mentioned, stray heavy calibre rounds and HE fragments will cause casualties even if aimed at the wall above your troops' current location.

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