Blue team _Red Team

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

Can we create a scenario using a US group against a US group? This would simulate training homeside. Would also allow the creation of a perfectly balanced scenario for players who want to play for fun rather than historical accurracy. Same would apply for other nations. ie German blue team against German red team, (new tactics..panzers against panzers). Hell why not allow you to create a Red team and a Blue team and allow you to even mix nationalities in the teams?

If you have US forces againts US forces don't worry about the kills, you can pretend the referee threw them out of the game.(ie US forces didn't really kill each other).

[This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 03-26-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

We weren't planning on allowing same sides to fight against each other. Not a bad suggestion, I'll pass it along. But we can't allow forces from different sides to mix very easily, so that won't be supported.

Steve

[Mike D]

BTS,

Do you mean by no mixing that we can't have a mixed US / British Force against a German force??? Just curious.

Mike D.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Nope, no mixing of Allied and Axis troops. You can certainly have something like US/UK units fighting on one side and SS/WH on the other side.

Steve

[Fionn]

Any chance of allowing US to man captured German weapons?

That might be a workaround for the mixing forces idea (as well as being a little more historically accurate since a few American unis heavily used German vehicles).

I'd imagine it would be easier for arty and tanks than it would be to implement changes in rifles used but its an idea.

Not sure how useful it is if you already include Germans vs US but I'm sure SOME people would want it hehe.. There's always a few

[Adam Arabian]

Ahh, does this ever bring back memories. I recall when CC2 and CC3 were in development there were numerous uselessnet posts r.e. this request (manning captured equipment). The general consensus was this:

1. Units using captured equipment were typically special forces/infiltration and weren't modeled in the game.

2. Use of anything but small arms generally requires some degree of training on teh specifics of that weapon (reffing arty and AT guns mostly - tanks are obvious) to make them even remotely useful, and

3. Reliance on auditory cues for friend or foe ID was heavy, and so soldiers were reluctant to use anything with a distinctively 'german' sound (Naw, I'm pretty sure thats OUR mg42...)

I've read a lot of WWII history and taken some courses, but I'm not nearly as expert in history as a lot of folks around here (Just a lowly engineer) so I could have missed some 'classic' examples of these not being the case - anyone have any good examples of use of opposing forces equipment other than infiltration units?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Adam is totally correct. Fionn, while you were "away" we had a discussion about this very topic. You can check the older messages on the board and see if you can find the thread (I wish I had time to fix the board's search engine <g>).

Basically Adam's point #3 was the big one. US troops generally thought the German small arms and tanks were the best, but they were also quite distinctive. We'll skip for the moment what would happen if a US "Panther" was spotted ('cause this should be obvious!) and go right to small arms A GI firing an MP44 or MG42 might as well seal himself up in a body bag before hand. The sound would mark that man, and his whole team/squad as enemy. There is also the issue of equipment load. If you want to use a different weapon (friendly or enemy), you have to switch ammo pouches for starters, otherwise you only get 5-30 shots (or 50-250 for an MG). This makes you look more like the enemy as well as sound like him. Then what happens when you run out of 8mm Kurz rounds? What then? Your buddy next to you isn't likely to have any, and surely you didn't haul around your Garand as well as the MP44...

Enemy heavy weapons use was not something that happened often in the field. Adam's proficiency comment #2 is right on the money. Crews needed weeks just to learn how to use most of this stuff, not to mention getting good at it. There were some examples of stuff being used in a pinch, but it was more for deterrent value or for fun (I've got some pictures of GIs tooling around in a Stug for example. Smiles indicate it was a joy ride!).

Now, the Germans used PLENTY of captured equipment from all over the place. But this stuff was generally brought back into the "shop" to be retrofitted or at least painted. T-34s, for example, were used in large quantities on the Eastern Front, but generally had German optics and radios fitted in them. We know of a few pieces of captured contemporary Allied equipment used on the Western Front, but we are talking VERY few in terms of front line stuff. Certainly not enough to bother simulating.

So, no to mixed Allied/Axis forces

Steve

[Fionn]

Good points. I remember skimming that thread when I came back and caught up with the rest. Good points and definitely blow any need to put in mixed weapons/nationalities etc.

A funny note about the Russkies.. I have a couple of fun pictures of a couple of Russian Panthers advancing through a Ukranian town in 44. Seems they captured a couple and outfitted a guards regiment with them (they were desparate after all) .

As for the point re: audio cues. Good point I know that the ONE big reason I wouldn't swap my M1 for an MG 42 is that I know the moment I'd open up I'd get a hail of "friendly" grenades thrown at me. Plus the fact simple things like slightly different bolt actions, design philosophies etc would make you slower and more accident prone when firing.

Again, I'm glad to see a lot of common sense going into the design. While I would take advantage of any design decisions in other games (allowing me to use enemy tanks ahistorically etc) I would deplore the fact they allowed this obvious bug to remain in. Glad to see this really doesn't appear to be a problem here.. Damn, I want this game now .

Hmm.. I'm in the unusual position of thinking things are coming along just great .. I'm a grognard. I grumble therefore I am but ur removing my grumbling reasons . Shame on you ..

j/k.

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 03-26-99).]