C2 & Information Sharing

[Erwin]

+1 for AI controlled friendlies plus the option to turn off icons of friendly units that are out of C2 (and also any enemy contacts that those friendlies see).

One can try to play with blinkers on.  But, it's so easy to not have any unit selected and you see everything.  That certainly makes the game more playable.  But, any attempt at "realism" goes out the window when one easily has a god's eye view of all units and everything they see. 

[Kuderian]

Here is a practical example from a current PBEM of horizontal C2 contact sharing between formation that share no common Chain of Command.

The Theatre is CM:BS. The Situation is as follows;

A MTLB Motor Rifle Battalion is in a Meeting Engagement with a similar sized force of US Mechanized Stryker Reconnaissance  troops.

After an hour of a two hour battle, reinforcements arrive in the form of a Russian Company of T-90's. They share no C2 links with the Motor Rifle Battalion.

I send the unbuttoned T-90 Company HQ to around 25m from the unbuttoned Motor Rifle Battalion HQ. Picture 1.

Within 30 seconds using voice communication the Rifle HQ shares all it's friendly and enemy contacts with the Tank HQ. Picture 2.

[Bulletpoint]

7 minutes ago, Kuderian said:

I send the unbuttoned T-90 Company HQ to around 25m from the unbuttoned Motor Rifle Battalion HQ.

Try to do the same, but keep them both buttoned. See what happens.

[Erwin]

The C2 aspect is fascinating.  Probably most of us play without considering it at all.  

[MOS:96B2P]

11 minutes ago, Kuderian said:

<Snip> reinforcements arrive in the form of a Russian Company of T-90's. They share no C2 links with the Motor Rifle Battalion.

I send the unbuttoned T-90 Company HQ to around 25m from the unbuttoned Motor Rifle Battalion HQ. 

Within 30 seconds using voice communication the Rifle HQ shares all it's friendly and enemy contacts with the Tank HQ.   

Very cool example.  Thanks for taking the time to share this.  

Someday I will have to re-do this thread to fix all the damage caused by Photobucket.  

If you have a save of that turn it would be interesting to try it with both vehicles buttoned as suggested by @Bulletpoint.  This kind of info is always interesting especially with practical examples like this. 

[Kuderian]

15 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Try to do the same, but keep them both buttoned. See what happens.

Sorry, it is a PBEM!

I would expect it would take considerably longer if they were both buttoned up.

[JoMac]

That's interesting, indeed.

Edited July 27, 2017 by JoMc67

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Kuderian said:

Sorry, it is a PBEM!

I would expect it would take considerably longer if they were both buttoned up.

I agree that would be logical, but I think the game doesn't take this into account. Only the distance.

[A Canadian Cat]

Indeed - that was a pretty fast brain dump of all that information. Pretty cool example though.

[JoMac]

8 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

That's interesting, indeed.

As in, the C2 Info Sharing is far to fast, and especially to another Unit not in same C2 Link...I would expect this sort of thing to take several minutes in Modern and several Hours in the WWII Titles, to the point where it's only useful in Campaigns.

[IICptMillerII]

10 hours ago, Kuderian said:

Here is a practical example from a current PBEM of horizontal C2 contact sharing between formation that share no common Chain of Command.

This is really interesting seeing it happen side by side like this. Thanks for the pictures and explanation!

One question though, what difficulty is this being played on? I wonder if there is a significant difference between "Warrior" and "Iron" for example. 

1 hour ago, JoMc67 said:

As in, the C2 Info Sharing is far to fast, and especially to another Unit not in same C2 Link...I would expect this sort of thing to take several minutes in Modern and several Hours in the WWII Titles, to the point where it's only useful in Campaigns.

Detailed grid references for every known and possibly known contact? Yes that would take a while, but that isn't whats being simulated here. The MTLB is telling the tank, "There are troops in the town, a vehicle by these trees, and a vehicle by those trees, and bad guys beyond this line on the map." That type of information doesn't take long at all to convey. Now, the tanks have a rough idea of where the enemy might be, which means they pay closer attention to those areas, which means they will spot enemy units faster. This is exactly how the C2 and spotting mechanic works in CM. I would say everything happening is perfectly realistic and reasonable. 

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

...and several Hours in the WWII Titles...

Well then, somebody should set up a similar situation in one of the WW II titles to see how long it takes there.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

11 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

One question though, what difficulty is this being played on? I wonder if there is a significant difference between "Warrior" and "Iron" for example. 

I do not think there should be any difference here. Warrior to Elite cleans up some icons for spotted enemy so FOW is preserved better in Elite. Elite to Iron makes friendly units have to spot other friendlies and it has been shown Iron tightens up C2 a little. The information being shared here is not covered by those differences so I would not expect any difference between the three.

 

11 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Detailed grid references for every known and possibly known contact? Yes that would take a while, but that isn't whats being simulated here. The MTLB is telling the tank, "There are troops in the town, a vehicle by these trees, and a vehicle by those trees, and bad guys beyond this line on the map." That type of information doesn't take long at all to convey. Now, the tanks have a rough idea of where the enemy might be, which means they pay closer attention to those areas, which means they will spot enemy units faster. This is exactly how the C2 and spotting mechanic works in CM. I would say everything happening is perfectly realistic and reasonable. 

Yes, this ^^^

[IICptMillerII]

32 minutes ago, IanL said:

I do not think there should be any difference here. Warrior to Elite cleans up some icons for spotted enemy so FOW is preserved better in Elite. Elite to Iron makes friendly units have to spot other friendlies and it has been shown Iron tightens up C2 a little. The information being shared here is not covered by those differences so I would not expect any difference between the three.

Ahh ok thanks for the clarification.

[MOS:96B2P]

I did some experiments with hatches opened and closed on vehicles from different battalions (So no vertical information sharing) to observe how horizontal information sharing was affected.  The experiment was done in CMFI v2.0 Engine 4.  The following is a summary of the results followed by screenshots:

Maximum horizontal information sharing range is 32 meters (4 Action Spots)

A vehicle must be unbuttoned to horizontally share (report) information from about 9 to 32 meters.

A vehicle can be buttoned & horizontally share (report) information if it is within 8 meters of the other vehicle.

This one surprised me: If two vehicles are 9 to 32 meters apart with one buttoned & the other open the open vehicle will share (report) information to the buttoned vehicle.  However the buttoned vehicle will not share (report) information to the open vehicle.

Infantry may horizontally share (report) information to a buttoned vehicle when within 32 meters.

The Screenshots are from CMFI v2.0 Engine 4.

The M4 Sherman from 3^rd Battalion has a tentative armor contact. 

The M4 Sherman from 1^st Battalion has a tentative infantry contact

The M4 from 1^st Battalion was ordered to move within 32 meters (but not closer than 9 meters) of the M4 from 3^rd Battalion so they will be within the maximum horizontal information sharing range.

Both M4 Shermans are within the maximum horizontal information sharing range of 32 meters however both tanks are buttoned so the information about their different tentative contacts are not shared.

The M4 from 3^rd Battalion opens its hatches.  It does not receive the tentative infantry contact information since the 1^st Bn. M4 is still buttoned.

The M4 from the 1^st Bn. is still buttoned but received the tentative armor contact from the open hatch 3^rd Bn. M4. 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Excellent information as always.....This thread has been a revelation to me and totally changed the way I play CM (it's a real shame about Photobucket's vandalism).

[General Liederkranz]

Thanks, @MOS:96B2P, this is great information.

[Bulletpoint]

6 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

A vehicle must be unbuttoned to horizontally share (report) information from about 9 to 32 meters.

A vehicle can be buttoned & horizontally share (report) information if it is within 8 meters of the other vehicle.

This one surprised me: If two vehicles are 9 to 32 meters apart with one buttoned & the other open the open vehicle will share (report) information to the buttoned vehicle.  However the buttoned vehicle will not share (report) information to the open vehicle.

Infantry may horizontally share (report) information to a buttoned vehicle when within 32 meters.

Thanks for taking the time to test this.

[Michael Emrys]

8 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I did some experiments with hatches opened and closed on vehicles from different battalions (So no vertical information sharing) to observe how horizontal information sharing was affected.

Excellent work, but have you checked to see if these numbers are effected by soft factors?

Michael

[Erwin]

Very useful.  Thank you...

[MOS:96B2P]

6 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

Excellent work, but have you checked to see if these numbers are effected by soft factors?   

No but I think the only soft factor that might affect information sharing would be experience and this would effect the speed of the information sharing.  The sharing distance does not seem to be effected by soft factors.  The vehicles I used had veteran TCs.  The infantry team was regular.   The game is so detailed I think there are a number of factors that can interact to effect the speed information is shared.  For example units in the same formation share information faster.  The two tanks in my experiment were from different battalions.  I stopped taking screenshots at this point however I did unbutton the M4 from 1st Battalion and it took about 90 seconds to share its tentative contact with the 3rd Battalion M4.  Also units under fire or broken take longer to share information.  Infantry units that are on Hide have their max horizontal sharing range reduced from 32 meters to 16 meters.  A lot of interesting things going on.     

[Michael Emrys]

6 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Also units under fire or broken take longer to share information.

This is what I would expect, I was thinking of current morale when I asked about soft factors.

6 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

A lot of interesting things going on.     

I believe it!

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Good stuff @MOS:96B2P

[Bulletpoint]

17 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

No but I think the only soft factor that might affect information sharing would be experience and this would effect the speed of the information sharing.

I have a strong suspicon that leadership might be the soft factor that most strongly affects the speed of information sharing. 

[MOS:96B2P]

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I have a strong suspicon that leadership might be the soft factor that most strongly affects the speed of information sharing. 

It might be leadership.  I was mostly looking at range of information sharing.  But now that you mentioned it @RockinHarry had a post in October 2015 that I will paraphrase bellow because I am to lazy to find it: 

Command range and C2 link appears to apply just between the leaders of the units in question. Being lightly wounded, a squad leader moved at a slower pace than his troops as the squad fell back.  After 2-3 game turns, the 2 uninjured soldiers reached the Co HQ while the slower moving squad leader still was about 60m away. No C2 command link. As soon as the injured squad leader moved inside the 50m command radius of the Co HQ the C2 link to the squad (leader actually) was re-established.

Information sharing does seem to depend on the soft factors of the leader of the team/crew in question.  So your suspicion that the leadership rating of the leader affects the speed of information sharing makes sense.  The only way to know for sure would be to test it.  However the speed of both vertical and horizontal information sharing is so quick that it is not something I am to concerned with (other than idle curiosity).  The main challenge, for horizontal information sharing, seems to be getting the two teams/crews within the correct distance to transfer the information.