Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 165
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

About the Scenario This scenario recreates one of Lt. Otto Carius' engagements made famous in his book 'Tigers in the Mud' on page 166 'The Ambush'.   The scenario map size is around 2.9km x 3.4km. Bo

It's out!      About the Scenario This scenario recreates one of Lt. Otto Carius' engagements made famous in his book 'Tigers in the Mud' on page 166 'The Ambush'.   The scenario map size is arou

Thanks for playing this and posting your feedback. Much appreciated ta! Glad you enjoyed it and good effort. I've a few scenarios in the pipeline for sure   Cheery!

Posted Images

 

I know you've already waited too long but before all your hope is gone - it'll be soon. I'm shooting for this weekend. RL allowing. It's been played (tested) both sides vs AI. Reckon it's playable H2H although the better player should take the German side.

 

Sweet. Didn't mean to sound rushed. But I recently got back to playing RT and this one looks appealing as tank battles is my favourite part of RT.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sweet. Didn't mean to sound rushed. But I recently got back to playing RT and this one looks appealing as tank battles is my favourite part of RT.

He! No worries - I was quoting Morrisey back at you (slightly modified!). 

 

p.s. look at the first post or the one below ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's out!  :D 

 

About the Scenario

This scenario recreates one of Lt. Otto Carius' engagements made famous in his book 'Tigers in the Mud' on page 166 'The Ambush'.

 

The scenario map size is around 2.9km x 3.4km. Both sides have around a company+.
 
You have around 01hr 40 Minutes (+0-15 minutes variable time). However it’s unlikely, playing against the AI that you’ll need all this time, although playing H2H it might be useful.
 
Playing the Scenario
This scenario was originally designed to be played first and foremost from the perspective of the German side against the Soviet AI.
 
It is playable head to head (H2H) but has not been playtested for balance in this regard. I suspect it’ll be a tough one for the German player – so if playing H2H let the less experienced player take the Soviets.
 
It is also playable Soviet Vs German AI - given the tactical situation and the game engine limitations of the AI - the German AI struggles with the situation. Still if you want to blow up Hitlerite Bandit Tigers – knock yersel out!
 
AI Plans
There are three distinct Soviet AI plans and one German AI plan – thus allowing some level of re-playability.
 
Those who want the true historical ‘feel’ then play Soviet AI Plan 1. It is the closest to how the Soviets reacted in the actual action. To access AI Plan 1, open this scenario in the editor and ‘switch off’ whatever other Red AI Plans you don’t want to play. It won’t affect FOW unless you take a peek at the other info.
 

About the Action

On the 22nd July 1944 Tigers of 2 Company (under the temporary command of Lt. Carius) from schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502  ambushed the spearhead of the Soviet 5th Tank Corps, the tip of 4th Shock Army’s spear, which had just cleanly broken through Army Group North’s defences. What is arguably unique about this action was the initial bold attack made by Carius and Kerscher into the village which was occupied by T34s from 41st Tank Brigade, made destroying a number of them.

 

Subsequent debate focuses on the exact kill tally - claimed by Carius in his book - in and around the village, the subsequent 'ambush' of the remainder of the Soviet tank unit some km east, and the part played by a nearby German Stug battery or batteries. The debate around the facts of this event I'll set aside for now but if you are interested there is a Historical Action PDF contained in the zip file that outlines the facts behind the engagement and subsequent research and opinion.

 

To Play

I've uploaded to the repository but until it goes live you can download the zip file (which contains the scenario game file, historical action PDF with sources and a master tactical map to help orientate yourself) via the following dropbox LINK

 

As always I'd appreciate any feedback etc. If you can post any comments etc in this thread that would be hugely appreciated ta!  :)

 

Enjoy!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for this scenario  :)

 

I'm currently 40 minutes in and i think i'm doing OK so far. It's been an intresting armour fight...The russian heavy tanks are very survivable even against the Tigers. I have been able to score many flankhits on those tanks but only knocked out a few so far...

 

I have lost 3 tigers up until now. None of the assultguns have been destroyed. Hopefully i have destroyed the bulk of the enemy forces by now.

 

As of yet my two 'stars' have not been my prime killers. My supporting Tigers have done most of the killing.

 

 

As usual...Your map is brilliant and gameplay is enjoyable

 

 

My only (very minor) critic/ suggestion so far has to do with the briefing...

 

Imo it is a bit unclear what to to with the StuGs...Should they join the tigers in the fight or should they priorotize to escape to the south. 

 

The briefing mentions that one of the prime objectives is to see to it that the assultguns can escape...If this is your intension...maybe you could add an exit zone on the south edge to allow the stugs to leave...If your intension is for the StuGs to join the Tigers in this fight...Maybe you could state this more clearly in the briefing..

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Repsol

Cheers for the comments :)

 

Glad you are enjoying it!

 

Re your comments - EXIT zones really screw up scoring in CM I've found. I've used em in the past but it's tough to get em to work without really unbalancing end of game scoring. So how to have the Stugs in the scenario (they were there despite Carius' account) but limit how players use them - especially against the AI in a co-ordinated attack?

 

I then went back to the actual event and in RL Carius did not co-ordinate his attack with the Stugs. No evidence to support that. It appears they did join in but it would appear only opportunistically. Hence the Stugs are a bit of a wild card. As they are a prime objective there are is more than one way to skin a cat - if you get my drift? ;) Mind - the Stug unit had their arses kicked not an hour past - they are low on ammo, poor morale and are a valuable strategic asset. Once the fighting is over then they can exit south - you just need to keep em alive to do that.

 

BTW the German briefing notes give a clue as to how to approach this. It's not perfect but as I said EXIT zones - unless the whole force has to come off the map tend to screw up the end of game scoring, and I've not found a satisfactory way around that.

Edited by George MC
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

EXIT zones really screw up scoring in CM I've found. I've used em in the past but it's tough to get em to work without really unbalancing end of game scoring.

 

Yes...i guess you are right about that. I'm currently putting the finishing touches on a few missions i have been working on and two of them have AI exit zones...i'm struggeling with the scoring part (exitzones combined with the fact that bailed out tankcrews continue with their attack after the tanks gets destroyed)

 

.there are is more than one way to skin a cat - if you get my drift? ;)

 

True... B)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi George,

 

Just finished it and was good fun playing a tank battle on that map. Played it at Elite level and lost one Tiger to 21 Soviets and 59 minutes left when it CF'd.

 

Not sure what AI plan it had but the main Sovient Heavy Tank force were whacked by just two Tigers and supported by 2 more. A bit if a turkeyt shoot and pity AI does not stop and engage as I would have not got away with that vs a human...

 

I was wondering if I was going to be attacked further but I had managed to get Stugs beyond the point where the AI threw 3 T34's up towards the Stg starting position. Good job I moved them before that happened as I would have been struggling.

 

The briefing made sense and it was clear I needed to keep Stugs alive else I would lose.

 

The map is great and really nice to see this game on such a large map and something that is historically accurate (ish).... (As well as it can be...)

 

I can see if I had chosen some worse apporaches for my Tigers it would have been more of a challenge. Sending two tigers up top hell for leather to cover right flank and the approach route of the Soviet Heavies was essential. Without that I think I would have found it harder. One heavy did slip through but I managed to get him before he got too far through.

 

The AI attack for the 3 T34's towards the Stug position was a bit too late and I don't know what triggered that? Time or my forces in a certain location? That would have caused me more problems but I guess you need to allow the player to have moved the Stugs?

 

Might fire it up again to see if a different AI plan will give me more trouble...

 

As you say maybe not best H2H as human Soviet player should be able to make those tanks count and really hurt the Stugs, maybe introduce a house rule that they can not head towards stugs until they have been seen from set up position?

 

Another thought is if the Soviets lose all the Heavys quickly can you have a varible force appear later to hit road? I am guessing there is no such trigger?

 

And one finaly thought the briefing mentioned some reserve Tigers? Are they variable or just for flavour in briefing?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Played yesterday. Carius died in the first two minutes of battle and never even got a shot off. Kerscher was much more successful, rampaging into the town and covering the fleeing StuGs until his Tiger was degunned. I tried to have him flee out of town too and just as he made it back to the start area an IS-2 got a shot into the rear of his Tiger's turret from 1200m and killed him.

The StuGs all made it though. All in all the impression I get from the circumstances is that Carius and Kerscher took on a suicide mission and were extremely lucky. Like only survivors of a nose-dive plane crash lucky.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Holien

Thanks for taking the time to give this a blast and post your thoughts. it's really appreciated ta.

 

Good effort with losing only one Tiger and KOing all the Soviet armour.

 

Before I reply to the other comments it might be useful to outline why I went and recreated this action in Combat Mission - it'll help give a context to my replies and the intent behind this.  

 

Carius’ account of how Kersher and himself drove into that village and shot up the Soviet tanks has always intrigued me.  TBH I could never really figure out why he’d do such a thing! After the release of Black sea I fancied getting back to WWII Ost Front stuff again. Otto Carius’ death  in January rekindled that interest in his career so myself and Charlie started digging about into the action with a view to doing it in Combat Mission. There are several Soviet sources now which really helped to give a perspective from 'the other side'. So much eastern Front stuff is from the German side. To get a Soviet angle (combat reprots, casualties, AARs etc) was really useful to try and model both sides.

 

Long story short we managed to confirm it did happen, pretty much as Carius describes save the involvement of the stugs and the actual Soviet unit engaged. We managed to confirm that actual location it took place. So all in all, for an eastern front scenario, we’d a great deal of info to which create which, to all intents and purposes, is a historical scenario.  We’d a confirmed OOB for both sides, confirmed location (with period small scale map to boot). This meant it would be possible to try out what Carius and Kersher did in RL on the Combat Mission battlefield. In that respect the main intent was to be able to recreate their action. Other issues such as game balance etc were not really in the equation TBH i.e. we never set out to ensure this was playable H2H or would provide a stiff fight against the AI. In RL Carius and his unit pretty much wiped out that Soviet advance guard and badly mauled their mates from the Guards unit in their JS-IIs who came to help.

 

The Soviet units in this action were very inexperienced – many/most of the T34s drivers had less than 3 hours driving experience. Carius’ company were pretty much all veterans of the eastern front and had experience of armoured combat. Basically, in this small tactical engagement, they outclassed the Soviets in training, experience and technology. That’s reflected in low experience and command values for the Soviets in game. Correspondingly the German values are all pretty high.

 

There are three Soviet AI plans. AI Plan 1 pretty much recreates how the Soviets reacted. As in RL this involved a very uncoordinated response. The other AI plans are a tad more sophisticated. As the AI will tend to attack I’ve found both the JS-IIs and T34s are not all that good at spotting – mainly because their moving and moving fast (unfortunately not much I can do about how the AI Plan behaviours influence how units move. When they move they move fast hence don’t spot well. That makes it easier to get the drop on them. Plus as I mentioned above they are pretty low experience levels overall (although many of the IS-IIs are higher experience levels – regular/veteran with one crack crew IIRC).

 

Within the AI plans are triggers. So the AI will respond depending on what the German player does. Each AI plan uses triggers in different ways so the AI responds differently.

The briefing made sense and it was clear I needed to keep Stugs alive else I would lose.

 

The map is based on the real world location (well a 1:50000 Soviet map of the area dating from 1930 – plus I have a contemporary German map of the same area at 1:100000 scale).

It does illustrate that Carius and Kerscher were extremely lucky to get away with what they did. It’s worth playing it out using the same tactics Carius deployed just to see what a risk Kerscher and he took. Why they did what they did is a tough one to work out. There are reasons given in Otto Carius’ book as to why they did what they did. Still I can’t help but wonder.

 

Playing H2H would be a challenge. The Soviet player does not know where the Stugs are. In fact in the briefing they don’t get too much info at all. If playing any house rule I’d suggest they (the Soviet player) can’t do anything proactively until the German player makes contact? And leave the set-up intact.

 

I’m loathe to add any more units. Simple fact is no other Soviet units took part. I’ll leave it as is. You can’t assign a trigger to reinforcements either in CMX2.

 

Thanks again for the playthrough H. Glad you enjoyed it overall  :)

 

Cheery!

George

Link to post
Share on other sites

Played yesterday. Carius died in the first two minutes of battle and never even got a shot off. Kerscher was much more successful, rampaging into the town and covering the fleeing StuGs until his Tiger was degunned. I tried to have him flee out of town too and just as he made it back to the start area an IS-2 got a shot into the rear of his Tiger's turret from 1200m and killed him.

The StuGs all made it though. All in all the impression I get from the circumstances is that Carius and Kerscher took on a suicide mission and were extremely lucky. Like only survivors of a nose-dive plane crash lucky.

Hi Capt

Thanks for your comments. Your experience models my own. I've played it a lot and TBH luck come into the survival chances of both Carius and Kerscher more than you might realise. I've done that charge into town multiple times and I'd say around 3out of 5 times they get away with it - albeit often with vehicle damage. I like your description of how lucky they were in RL.

 

Carius' reasoning for this approach (as he describes in his book “Tigers in the Mud”) was because the situation was so unclear and, in his judgement, would be too risky for the unit to attack on line. Therefore to avoid risking his other vehicles and crews - six Tigers (under the command of 1st Lieutenant Nienstedt who was new to the unit) remained in reserve while Carius and Kerscher's Tigers moved towards the village of Malinava. Speed was the essence of Carius' strategy, as was his desire to avoid unnecessary casualties.

 

A key factor in the success of Carius’ unit attack could be attributed to fact that the tank crews of the Soviet 3/41st Tank Brigade were mainly inexperienced reinforcements. The battalion has come up to brigade on the evening of the 21st June 1944. It appears the tank drivers had experience of only 3 hours driving their tanks, whilst many of the officers were inexperienced and not ready for a fast and dynamic close range armoured fight.

 

It can also be speculated that after their victory over the German assault guns that they’d relaxed, or had become overconfident or had perhaps most likely (either because they simply forgot or due to their inexperience) that a vital part of mechanised combat is attentive and alert observation of all arcs that a possible enemy could approach from. I'd heard some versions that suggested the Soviet crews might have been out of their tanks - looking for booze or drink or both. There is no evidence - from any source - to support that. From Carius' account and the number of KIAs it does appear as if most in not all the Soviet crews were in their tanks when the attack hit.
 
Whatever the reasons the young inexperienced Soviet tank crews paid a heavy price – 20 officers and other ranks were killed in the fight. Many were buried by the wrecks of their destroyed tanks on the battlefield. Note: A full list of the Soviet tankers killed at Malinava can be found at
 
 
Cheery!
George
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow! Excellent work mate! Where have you uploaded it? I could include it in the zip file for the scenario as a tagged mod. Great stuff :)

Thanks! not done yet still need some fix mate, this's just my quick job in the office after saw this thread then i dig some WOT skins and found it and try to convert it..this tiger skin template really confusing me :D

btw i'll send it to you if this already done

Edited by --WOKI--
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks! not done yet still need some fix mate, this's just my quick job in the office after saw this thread then i dig some WOT skins and found it and try to convert it..this tiger skin template really confusing me :D

btw i'll send it to you if this already done

Aye nae worries :) Look forward to it as and when.

 

Cheery!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...