Must have feature for the TacAI -> Area Target

[ASL Veteran]

There was no Iron mode in CMSF until 1.10.  I went though all the patch readmes after that and didn't see it list.  Just for giggles, I am going to reinstall CMSF from scratch and see if that is true.

Quite honestly I'm not even sure how we got talking about FOW for friendly units because generally speaking you don't area fire against friendly units.  I had to go back and re read Ian's initial post and I see that he mentioned friendly and enemy units for contact markers.  Vanir then only disagreed with Ian about the friendly contact markers - something I neglected to notice.  I thought Vanir was saying that when a unit is selected you see all units and that your view of enemy units was undifferentiated between when a unit is selected or a unit is not selected.  That's why I posted my initial response - because the point was not that you would get contact markers on friendly units since you wouldn't be area firing on them, but rather that you would get different contact markers for enemy units depending upon which unit was selected.  That is relevant when area firing.  When Vanir then continued discussing friendly units I then responded by reaching back into the memory hole because I wasn't even sure why he was discussing friendly units in the first place. 

 

Once again though, the game doesn't even consider an icon to be an eligible target so all of these theories of the AI area firing vs. contact markers are essentially non starters.  The only way that I can think of to allow the AI to area fire would be some method of painting the map with an area target location when creating an AI plan, and even something like that would be difficult to make work in a way that makes sense. 

[Wiggum15]

Once again though, the game doesn't even consider an icon to be an eligible target so all of these theories of the AI area firing vs. contact markers are essentially non starters.  The only way that I can think of to allow the AI to area fire would be some method of painting the map with an area target location when creating an AI plan, and even something like that would be difficult to make work in a way that makes sense.

Thats what YOU see but the engine, the code, see things a bit different. Im sure even a "suspected contact" (?) icon gives some kind of integer or something else relative to the position on which it appears (how else would the "game" know that it had to spawn that icon on this position ?) so you just had to code the AI in a way that it, at times, uses a area fire command on such a location.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Wiggum15

[Baneman]

I'm sure I remember what ASLVeteran is saying - the reason I was put off Iron Mode is that I remember having to deselect a unit in order to see where it was in relation to other units while giving it its movement orders ( so must have been during the orders phase ).

 

This must have been in the early days of CMBN, so perhaps something changed between v1.0 and later.

 

Despite the change, I still don't see any reason to use Iron over Elite. Having to remember to deselect a unit is mildly irritating, but I don't see any gain for having that aspect.

[Thewood1]

To me, its not the friendly FOW.  Its the more "realistic" non-radio C&C.  I don't even notice the friendly FOW.

[ASL Veteran]

Thats what YOU see but the engine, the code, see things a bit different. Im sure even a "suspected contact" (?) icon gives some kind of integer or something else relative to the position on which it appears (how else would the "game" know that it had to spawn that icon on this position ?) so you just had to code the AI in a way that it, at times, uses a area fire command on such a location.

No, the game doesn't fire at icons, the game has units firing at vehicles, infantrymen, action spots, etc.  The icon just floats above whatever it is that it is floating above.  As far as the troops and vehicles under your command are concerned the icons don't exist.  The game doesn't need an icon to see what is at a particular location, only the player does.

[Wiggum15]

No, the game doesn't fire at icons, the game has units firing at vehicles, infantrymen, action spots, etc.  The icon just floats above whatever it is that it is floating above.  As far as the troops and vehicles under your command are concerned the icons don't exist.  The game doesn't need an icon to see what is at a particular location, only the player does.

Sorry but you dont understand what i wrote...

If the engine knows to spawn a icon at position XY it also could use this position for a area fire order if the AI would be coded in a way to allow that (i think the AI has the same options as the player so area fire should be possible).

[ASL Veteran]

Sorry but you dont understand what i wrote...

If the engine knows to spawn a icon at position XY it also could use this position for a area fire order if the AI would be coded in a way to allow that (i think the AI has the same options as the player so area fire should be possible).

No, I understand exactly what you wrote.  What you are getting confused about is what is being targeted in the game.  The game is not using icons as targets ... period, end of story.  A contact 'icon' is an icon regardless of where it was spawned.  Yes, the game knows that something was at the location that spawned the icon, but the icon itself is not what the game fires at.  The game fires at what the icon was floating over and once whatever the icon was floating over is no longer there then the AI has nothing to fire at.  Empty ground is not currently a valid target for the AI (or we would obviously already have area fire for the AI) so if nothing exists where the icon is floating then there is no valid target for the AI to fire at.  Empty ground also doesn't spawn a contact icon, something else does, so now the target that spawned the icon is not the target any more.  The target is now empty ground and since the empty ground didn't spawn the icon then how is the computer to know that you are supposed to be firing at empty ground rather than what used to be there?  I'm not sure I can be any more clear than that.

Edited April 2, 2015 by ASL Veteran

[Wiggum15]

No, I understand exactly what you wrote.  What you are getting confused about is what is being targeted in the game.  The game is not using icons as targets ... period, end of story.

Did i ever said that the AI should target the Icon ?!

I wrote (two times) that the position at which the icon gets spawned (the position on the map, the position not the icon, the position, no not the icon) could be used for a area fire order.

[sburke]

Sorry but you dont understand what i wrote...If the engine knows to spawn a icon at position XY it also could use this position for a area fire order if the AI would be coded in a way to allow that (i think the AI has the same options as the player so area fire should be possible).

An example of why this won't work (and a kind of gamey item) when a team is separated the icon floats above a mid point. So now by the proposal the AI would fire at a suspected location in game terms that is the one point you can almost be assured no unit is located. Personally I see this becoming a huge ammo dump for the AI as it unloads on every location spotted that has been "painted" as a suspect enemy location or where a unit has been spotted before or just a sound contact. Once again a binary thinking service is given a broad paint brush to respond to that requires more thought as to whether that location should be fired upon anymore.

Just my two cents.

[ASL Veteran]

Did i ever said that the AI should target the Icon ?!

I wrote (two times) that the position at which the icon gets spawned (the position on the map, the position not the icon, the position, no not the icon) could be used for a area fire order.

The position doesn't spawn the icon.  Whatever was at the position spawns the icon.  Let me attempt to clarify what I'm saying.  Infantry squad X is at the edge of the woods.  A contact icon is generated by the infantry squad.  Okay, so you have an infantry contact icon floating over a piece of woods terrain that was generated by an infantry squad.

 

The infantry squad then moves fifty meters deeper into the woods, but the infantry contact icon remains where the infantry unit was previously located.  The AI now makes an attempt to fire at the infantry squad that generated the infantry contact icon but the infantry squad is no longer located there.  Under no circumstances has the wooded terrain generated a contact icon.  The infantry squad generated the contact icon.  So if the infantry squad is what generated the contact icon, what do you suppose the AI is going to try to target when firing at the area that the infantry squad used to be located?  The AI will try to fire at the infantry squad that generated the contact icon whether the AI can see the infantry or not, not the empty ground that the infantry squad used to be located in because the empty ground didn't generate the contact icon, the infantry squad generated the icon.  If the infantry squad has moved to a new location and the AI tries to target the squad at the old location, then there will be no target present for the AI to fire at because, once again, the empty ground was not any part of the process either in generating the contact or in the AI's decision to fire and the AI doesn't know what the empty ground is. 

 

In order to get the AI to fire at open ground you have to designate the open ground as the target.  A contact marker designates whatever generated the contact as the target. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by ASL Veteran

[Wiggum15]

 So if the infantry squad is what generated the contact icon, what do you suppose the AI is going to try to target when firing at the area that the infantry squad used to be located?

 

...maybe the "Area" (map position) ?

I think thats why its called "Area Fire".

[sburke]

Wiggum15 as I understand it you are assuming that the icon is generated relative to a specific ground tile spot the game selects to represent the assumed location of a contact. I honestly do not know if that is truly how it works or not. Could be, however very often those icons are off, in fact in my experience they are rarely exact so in effect the proposal is that the AI start area firing on a contact that has a high likelihood of being actually nothing and that is assuming it even has LOS.

As a human player I monitor the sound contacts for possible enemy locations and probable movement. The actual selection of locations for area fire is based on figuring out from the lay of the land where the actual source of the sound contact is most probably located. This is not something the AI can manage.

[Wiggum15]

I dont say its the perfect solution, its just a way how it maybe could work, or not.

Only BFC's knows that and even if it would be possible to include Area Fire for the AI maybe they dont want to include it because they fear the amount of work.

[Thewood1]

I know at least in Iron mode, there are multiple contact icons for unspotted enemy units.  They also shift around moment to moment.  I would think the AI would spend a lot of time throwing bullets and chasing down those icons.

[General Jack Ripper]

I offer my apologies for my mixup.

[Thewood1]

I was just thinking that you could drive a jeep around or have infantry run around the inside of some woods and force the AI to fire off all of its ammo.  Talk about a feature built to be gamed.

[akd]

I was just thinking that you could drive a jeep around or have infantry run around the inside of some woods and force the AI to fire off all of its ammo.  Talk about a feature built to be gamed.

 

 

Which is why it would have to be more limited:

 

 

I think the first step to AI area fire should be area fire if:

 

1. Unit is not under restrictive fire order. (Ambush orders for AI player.)

 

2. Unit is receiving fire from the direction / location of a newly acquired ? contact

    or

    Unit is receiving fire from the direction  / location of an aged contact, either the unit's own or shared

    or

    Unit has just lost a positive contact (already implemented, but volume/duration of fire is far too limited).

 

3. ? contact type is susceptible to area fire (no area firing on AFVs)

 

This would provide for limited, realistic reactionary fire without the AI player going crazy targeting every ? on the map it has LOS to.

[Thewood1]

I am sure you would limit it, but I suspect unless its very limited to very specific situations, people would figure out tactics to get them to fire off a goodly amount of ammo.

 

Also...

 

Don't the enemy FOW levels change between Elite and Iron.  I thought there might be another level of FOW in Iron that wasn't in Elite.  Is there anyone at BFC that knows all the details of the differences?

[ASL Veteran]

...maybe the "Area" (map position) ?

I think thats why its called "Area Fire".

The 'area' or map position did not generate the contact.  The unit did, thus if the AI is going to target the contact the AI is targeting what generated the contact (remember that the AI targets things not icons or empty ground).  Empty ground is not a target that is recognized by the AI and if the ground isn't generating any contacts then the ground can't be a target.  That is why the actual ground would have to be designated as the target if you are going to have area fire.  Since no ground locations create a contact then no ground location can be considered a target.  You, the player, can manually target a piece of terrain because you actually target the empty ground and not the unit that created a contact.  You the player associate the ground location with the contact, but in reality the contact is not associated with the location but with the unit that generated the contact.  In order to get the AI to target empty ground you have to actually target the empty ground for the AI, and the only way I can think of that you can do that is to physically paint a designated area on the map in the editor for the AI to target with area fire.

 

Anyway, we are all tilting at windmills here since there are no plans that I am aware of to include such a feature and nothing to my knowledge has ever been discussed.  I am pretty certain that creating something that you are proposing would be much more difficult to create than you might be accounting for assuming it is possible to do at all.  I wouldn't mind having AI area fire added at some point in the future but I wouldn't be holding my breath.

Edited April 2, 2015 by ASL Veteran

[A Canadian Cat]

Don't the enemy FOW levels change between Elite and Iron. 

 

Nope, there is no difference there.  This time I am sure

[A Canadian Cat]

How about along the lines of @Wiggum15's house rule (which I think is pretty good actually - going to try that out).

The TacAI will:

If a team is under fire from the enemy the other nearby friendly teams that have ? contacts from the rough direction of the enemy fire they will area fire at the strongest of those ? contacts.

No changes to their current shoot at known enemy contacts in fact the area fire should be done if they do not have a higher priority solid contact.

I think the first step to AI area fire should be area fire if:

 

1. Unit is not under restrictive fire order. (Ambush orders for AI player.)

 

2. Unit is receiving fire from the direction / location of a newly acquired ? contact

    or

    Unit is receiving fire from the direction  / location of an aged contact, either the unit's own or shared

    or

    Unit has just lost a positive contact (already implemented, but volume/duration of fire is far too limited).

 

3. ? contact type is susceptible to area fire (no area firing on AFVs)

 

This would provide for limited, realistic reactionary fire without the AI player going crazy targeting every ? on the map it has LOS to.

 

 

These or some combination could make a good suggestion - but not really a good demand

 

Wiggum15 and ASL Veteran, you guys keep saying the same thing and expecting the other guy to figure it out Perhaps explaining it a different way and see if that helps.

 

ASL Ventran is totally correct about where the icons come from - units that were either at one time spotted and moved or created enough noise or moving shadows to rate a possible contact.  Wiggum15 must be correct in some fashion about the game "knowing" where what coordinates on the map to draw it.  Obviously we don't know the details of how this works but clearly those icons's location are not tied to the unit directly.  And clearly they are tied to it in other ways because they tend to disappear when the unit that generated them becomes fully spotted or is eliminated.

 

What myself, Wiggum15 and akd are suggesting is that the Tac AI, under certain conditions, area fire at the ground where the strongest of those ? icons are located.  So that means area targeting of suspected enemy unit locations.  But the point is they would be targeting the action square nearest the place the game already knows to draw the ? icon.  Area targeting the action square, if and only if the unit has LOF to that location.

 

Thewood1's concern about causing the AI to waste ammo while interesting I think is easily dealt with by the restrictions that are described above.  Especially my version - which would really only fire in response to incoming fire so has the advantage of not wasting ammo and having a high degree of likely hood that some enemy is nearby but has the disadvantage that ? icons in observation posts would not get fired at.

 

Or perhaps my way of explaining it will not be different enough.

[Ryujin]

I don't think the AI running out of ammo is that big of a concern, I'm sure you can just have the AI fire briefly and cut them off if they run low. Honestly, if an AI unit lives long enough in contact to run out of ammo it's already an improvement over the usual turkey shoot. 

 

It'd also be nice to have this option for player units, with something like a "cover fire arc" or some ROE options. There's certainly cases where I'd like my units to fire if they so much as think they see enemy infantry and ammo isn't an issue.