Operational level campaign completed.

[Denis1973]

Talks about operational level have begun just after the first CV game is released. In our community we have made several attempts to complete the task. First and second (based on custom rules) were partially successful. And only third became a success.

With received experience the concept of approach was based on:

The bottom line. Operational level will be interesting to play with at least divisional level, at least 3-4 day duration of battle.

The upper line. Combat Mission scenario must be maximum about 1 hour long at 1500-2000 m battlefield with battalion(+) force size.

Simplify. Gamemaster must be released from tiresome calculations. It will be made in-game. IGO-YOUGO rules instead of WEGO at operational level. Hex-based battle maps.

Speed. Not all actions, even not all battles, can be played in CM because of slow progress. It will be made by operational game itself.

 

So, we choose The Operational Art of War III (TOAWIII) as an operational level game. Especially because very smart system of unit strength – every unit consist of given number of rifle squads, guns, tanks, etc. Contrary to "rifle Co" with given "strength" (attack 4, defence 3) or "132 men" (without any other weapons) in other games. Same about supply – every unit tracked available amount of supply during whole campaign. It spends on moving and battles and replenished with supply network.

 

Here is Google doc (in English) which describes the flow of campaign.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aZUo83DNHG8_QfmiQNc3CWo72IQRXEKMTAg8eCSJMr4/edit#

 

Unfortunately, rules are not yet translated. More on this – it is under some rework and enhancement. But if you have any questions I'll try to answer.

 

And, finally, we think about new campaign. One of problem here is that we need more gamers (in this campaign took part 6 gamers and 2 admins – not as much as we want to). So I want to understand the level of interest – we can play East or West front, Russian community against "west" (English speaking) or mixed, etc.

 

May be pin this topic up?

[kohlenklau]

Hi Denis,

 

These are my personal views from my experience over the last few years. Take them as they are worth.

 

I have been involved in several CMPzC Operations before and now presently have 1 going on with friends in CMFI (almost finished soon! We are attacking the final objective, Ribera, Sicily) and 1 in progress in CMBN "The Road to Eindhoven" and 3 new ones in the formulation phase.

 

Interest: I have seen initial interest in this back a few years ago. Now I consider interest as surprisingly low based on number of people replying back in the threads or asking to participate. I checked my breath, minty fresh from toothpaste every morning! I checked my socks and also other body odor areas. I don't think it is me! I thought maybe it was because I asked for an AAR with photos as entertainment, like a cover charge to enter the club? Maybe that is the issue? So, now recently when I invite participants I clearly say I have dropped that requirement and we can see if interest picks up. Some folks do like to just be PBEM foot soldiers and not have to be involved with the orders and decisions above the level of a CM battle. I understand their desire, they are busy and have maybe some time to read the thread that says how the big picture battle is going and make some nice inputs but not a mandatory commitment to guide it and monitor it.

 

Overall, I am hopeful to see participation increase as I drop the AAR requirement and simplify the Operations to have folks clearly see they can just swing in to play a CM battle.

 

I personally like to dial the size way down so we can finish the operation in a smaller time.

Congratulations to you to complete your ambitious Operation. I can see it must be a very good feeling to finally see it concluded

and the 24 page booklet is very nice. 

 

I wish you good luck with your project and I hope you get lots of folks to participate.

I will keep an eye on this thread.

[kipanderson]

Denis, hi,

Looks very impressive. Have taken the opportunity to speed read some of your great document and will work through more soon. You have clearly perfected your version of these things. In my experience using a given set of rules from an operational game makes things a bit more difficult due to the lack of flexibility for the umpires.

But you have tested your methods and clearly find it works better to have a fixed operational structure to work with.

If I have time would like to take part but must first read fully how you do things to understand the time requirements.

Time allowing, and a system the umpires are comfortable working with, CMMC is by far the ultimate way to play CM.

Congratulations on success of your previous game,

All the best,

Kip.

.

[kipanderson]

Denis,

Having read your full AAR am even more impressed.

Do keep us informed and I hope you will publish rules and such as they are translated. Am keen to be involved but need first to understand more how you play your game.

Below is how I know CMMC.... Your way may be very similar but with TOAWIII?

All the best,

Kip.

“Combat Mission Meta Campaign.

Both sides are sent operational maps with their units and enemy units placed on them. Imagine a 1:50000 map with full details of your own side’s battalions and companies but only limited details of enemy battalions and companies.

In forums, one or more for each side, matters are discussed and then the commanders, division or corps, issue orders to their own subordinate players. Where units are to move, what they are to do, attack this village, defend this ridge line and so on... The orders are also sent to the Games Masters/GMs/Umpires.

The umpires then decide where units have ended up, given the orders, and which units are in contact with the enemy and due to fight that turn. The umpires then build the battles in CM and send them off to the battalion commanders of the units to resolve the operational turn using CM. After a given number of CM in game turns, or some other criteria, both players Save the game and send back the files to the umpires.

The umpires then construct new maps reflecting the outcomes of the CM battles and send them off to each side as before to start another operational turn. The umpires also include an operational briefing with Intel reports and such.

That is it....

In my version of CMMC many of the contact battles would be resolved by the umpires at the operational level also some of the “player’s games...” would be fought against the AI and some against the umpires. This would allow a smaller number of players to fight their CMMC within a larger operational environment. “

[Strachwitz]

 

And, finally, we think about new campaign. One of problem here is that we need more gamers (in this campaign took part 6 gamers and 2 admins – not as much as we want to). So I want to understand the level of interest – we can play East or West front, Russian community against "west" (English speaking) or mixed, etc.

 

My advice. Head out for some of the CM clubs out there. There are planty of folks playing and wanting to play operational level games. We at the Few Good Men (http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/forums) have quite a few live operational games going on and the replacement lists are always full. So, there is definitely no shortage of willing players.

[kohlenklau]

Denis,

 

Strachwitz said what I was also going to say. BFC forums are good for some things but not others, such as these campaigns/operations it seems.

You will definitely find the club sites full of folks ready to jump in at least initially. I am probably headed there in 2016 with my suitcase of operational stuff!

But I wanted to give BFC forums a good fair chance for the rest of 2015.

The folks at for example "A Few Good Men" are still a normal pie graph of human types.

Some hard core folks who will sink their teeth into a year long campaign. Others who get involved but lose interest and will/might let you down and disappear.

The FGM website will set you up with your own set of special forum threads if they approve of the project. "bootie" is the boss to talk to.

A sincere good luck with the project!

[Serk]

My advice. Head out for some of the CM clubs out there. There are planty of folks playing and wanting to play operational level games. We at the Few Good Men (http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/forums) have quite a few live operational games going on and the replacement lists are always full. So, there is definitely no shortage of willing players.

 

This.

 

With all the efforts put by the community to get some kinds of operational campaign going, I'd really wish for BFC to add something in this regard. It could be a simple automatic converter between CM and some other games such as John Tiller's campaign that could even remove the need for an umpire, or a whole new operational system in CM by itself.

 

It is probably to late for the Bulge game and I think BFC is not interested anyway, which is sad.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Serk

[Serk]

Double post. Please delete.
 

Edited March 24, 2015 by Serk

[kohlenklau]

It is absolutely not BFC's fault. I am not a paid/unpaid "sentinel", I suspect they'll be along very shortly to snuff out your heretical mutant talk.

 

BFC makes a wonderful BBQ grill and everybody wants an "outdoor room" to enjoy it. But there are many styles and designs of "outdoor room" and it does not pay BFC to invest in that direction. It would never be everybody's perfect "outdoor room" anyway and they would waste resources that would better be used to focus on new or improved BBQ grills. Get it?. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by kohlenklau

[A Canadian Cat]

This.

 

With all the efforts put by the community to get some kinds of operational campaign going, I'd really wish for BFC to add something in this regard. It could be a simple automatic converter between CM and some other games such as John Tiller's campaign that could even remove the need for an umpire, or a whole new operational system in CM by itself.

 

It is probably to late for the Bulge game and I think BFC is not interested anyway, which is sad.

 

You mean like this: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/109632-operational-level-game-announcement/

[Serk]

Or this: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/115644-combat-mission-commander-campaign-tool/

 

I'm aware the community is trying hard to get such a tool and I really hope it will become reality and a success. I've just submit to join the dicussion for the projet you've linked to see how it is progressing.

[A Canadian Cat]

Good.  It has been quiet for a while but it seemed like things were happening.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

 

One problem that can limit numbers is that people are after very different things.

 

Kohlenklau does an outstanding job at his operations but they are very different from what I am after.

 

It is something close in style to the great CMMC set in Normandy using CMX1 and put together by James Bailey that hooks me. But far smaller scale.  

 

Denis seems do something similar with his chums.

 

All the best,

Kip.

[kohlenklau]

Variety is the spice of life...or at least a close 2nd to Tabasco sauce.

[Denis1973]

2All, thanks for responses and advices  .

Regarding Few Good Men – already done. Pavel have sent a message there. And received some posts.

 

2kipanderson

In short, The Rules are consist of several blocks:

1. The transitional tables from/to CM/TOAW to depict experience, ammo loads, readiness, etc. of the troops and quantity of entrenchments in both games.

2. Set of rules to restrict possibilities provided by TOAW because of:

- it is sometime hard to  GM to work with

- we need to restrict quantity of forces on CM battle map

3. Some administrative rules for:

- whole campaign

- playing the battles in CM

 

Most of the events are tracked by TOAW engine so it no needs to be mentioned in Rules. Both sides makes moves in-turn, like in TOAW or PzC.

Peoples involved are GameMasters (one or two), Head of Staff with XO (for each side) and Field Commanders.

GMs are responsible for making a CM scenarios, operational map, reports and so on. GM is the final judge if any issues evolved. Maps making doing by all people involved.

HoS&XO issued orders on operational level and basic plans for CM battles. They decided what battle should be played in CM, what – in TOAW.

FC are played battles in CM. One of important moment – they are not assigned for exact forces on whole campaign. All my experience shows that strict assignment isn't lead to "careful behavior" while some of players became bored with "nothing happened here" or "tenth attack on the same village (with same results)". My system provide player with different forces, tasks and terrain during campaign. This keeps player involved. Care on forces – work of Head of Staff, he must be in close contact with his fellow commanders.   

Edited March 26, 2015 by Denis1973

[kipanderson]

Denis, hi,

 

Sounds very good... just the job and the type of CMMC style operational game that ever since the James Bailey Normandy game I have been a fan of.

 

Will certainly be keen to take part.

Sadly am only an English speaker..  .

Disgraceful I know as Russians and most others here speak and effortlessly write multiple languages.

 

All the best,

Kip.

[Apocal]

"The initial battle was a complete shock for Germans, who’ve lost the initiative and suddenly understood their troops are concentrated along the single road and their flanks are completely unprotected."
 
"US commander decided to split the reinforcement battalion, sending ⅓ of it to Dieuze and ⅔ to Moncourt. So, instead of bringing it’s entire weight at the northern sector (as high command demanded), the reinforcement was distributed along the whole front as a reserves, and were effectively wasted, as Germans did not attempt to attack in the southern half at all."
 
"By the end of the second day of the battle, Germans had lost Heming (that was left undefended) and got their main supply line cut. But this success was not supported by any additional forces, nor any development of the success was planned."
 
"Moreover, the infantry company was ordered to leave Heming and retreat to Cutting. That was the biggest operational mistake, for some reason US command gave away all the achievements and positional advantages it had by then. German supply route was clear again and their troops at Heming were now free for actions."
 
"In the same time, Germans considered the situation to be very complex. German companies were only 20-50% strength, and it became usual for panzers to attack without infantry support and without artillery (who did not participate in combat until Turn 12 at all and suffered of poor supply afterwards)."
 

 

It sounds like operational missteps defined this campaign.

[Denis1973]

Yea, US player was extremely cautious with his decisions, so lost some opportunities. His XO was more aggressive but he is not in charge

German player just... have no plan for battle, I suppose. So after first stunning defeat he just reacted on situation.

Despite this US side have achieved more success than in reality.   

[Fokker G1]

Not sure where this is, but as a CMMC2 vet I am in for any Meta Campaign. Ushavov, out.

[nathangun]

On 3/23/2015 at 11:08 AM, Denis1973 said:

Talks about operational level have begun just after the first CV game is released. In our community we have made several attempts to complete the task. First and second (based on custom rules) were partially successful. And only third became a success.

With received experience the concept of approach was based on:

The bottom line. Operational level will be interesting to play with at least divisional level, at least 3-4 day duration of battle.

The upper line. Combat Mission scenario must be maximum about 1 hour long at 1500-2000 m battlefield with battalion(+) force size.

Simplify. Gamemaster must be released from tiresome calculations. It will be made in-game. IGO-YOUGO rules instead of WEGO at operational level. Hex-based battle maps.

Speed. Not all actions, even not all battles, can be played in CM because of slow progress. It will be made by operational game itself.

 

So, we choose The Operational Art of War III (TOAWIII) as an operational level game. Especially because very smart system of unit strength – every unit consist of given number of rifle squads, guns, tanks, etc. Contrary to "rifle Co" with given "strength" (attack 4, defence 3) or "132 men" (without any other weapons) in other games. Same about supply – every unit tracked available amount of supply during whole campaign. It spends on moving and battles and replenished with supply network.

 

Here is Google doc (in English) which describes the flow of campaign.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aZUo83DNHG8_QfmiQNc3CWo72IQRXEKMTAg8eCSJMr4/edit#

 

Unfortunately, rules are not yet translated. More on this – it is under some rework and enhancement. But if you have any questions I'll try to answer.

 

And, finally, we think about new campaign. One of problem here is that we need more gamers (in this campaign took part 6 gamers and 2 admins – not as much as we want to). So I want to understand the level of interest – we can play East or West front, Russian community against "west" (English speaking) or mixed, etc.

 

May be pin this topic up?

 

Has anyone got the rules on how to play the campaign for this?