Modern-day Korea

[Codename Duchess]

Here's some excellent analysis on the "Sea of Fire" claim Pyongyang likes to make about Seoul.

http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-special-reports/mind-the-gap-between-rhetoric-and-reality/

[jomni]

Aside from additional OOB. Will Black Sea actually get other theaters? Georgia? Turkey?

[db_zero]

I agree with all of the above, but just use a little imigination. The US and NATO is already comitted to a major conflict in the Ukraine and the Middle East has tied up additional forces due to an ISIS like threat and Iran. Years of budget cuts have reduced the military to a much smaller force and much is already comitted to the conflict in Europe and the Middle East. Tensions between the US and China have reached an all time high due to continued hacker attacks and disagreements over disputed islands. Tensions between the US and China have reached such a bad point that China siezes Western business assets operating in China. In retaliation the US and other Western nations freeze all Chinese assets and impose a trade embargo on China.

 

China considers Westerns actions an act of war.

 

Under these conditions North Korea has decided to take advantage of the situation and due to a rapidly deteriorating internal situation has decided to risk all on an assault on the South...walla you have a rationale for a Korea module.

 

Could use all of the above for a resurgent China to invade Taiwain while we're at it and sieze a few disputed islands from Japan. Yes, I know China doesn't have the sealift capability presently, but use some creativity. Their economy allows them to go on a buying spree and for the past few years, and  due to rapidly shrinking defense spending due to severe budget constrains from years of Western Central Bank stimulas actions to jump start failing economies and years of out of control government spending, Western defense industries have been more than willing to sell the Chinese all the weapons and ships they can produce in order to stay in business.

 

In the runup to the conflict breaking out China has decided to modernize the North Korean Army...

Edited March 20, 2015 by db_zero

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Under these conditions North Korea has decided to take advantage of the situation and due to a rapidly deteriorating internal situation has decided to risk all on an assault on the South...walla you have a rationale for a Korea module.

 

It would require the ROK to be doing very, very badly, and the DPRK to have secretly disguised itself as Greece, and taken all the loan money from the EU and funneled it strictly into building a time machine to go back and undo everything that happened about 1985-present before the DPRK would be a serious threat again.  

[db_zero]

It would require the ROK to be doing very, very badly, and the DPRK to have secretly disguised itself as Greece, and taken all the loan money from the EU and funneled it strictly into building a time machine to go back and undo everything that happened about 1985-present before the DPRK would be a serious threat again.  

 

Due to bad economic conditons in the West, consumers have stopped spending and export of goods from South Korea have dropped dramatically. Companies like Hundai, Kia and Samsung have announced huge layoffs. The result is massive discontent in South Korea, especially amongst the younger generation raised and used to living a life of abundance, unlike the older generations used to enduring hard times. Protests have errupted and demands for social programs and welfare have taken place. The normally conservative and business oriented South Korean government finds itself under heavy pressure as calls for a more socialistic government are demanded...

 

Meanwhile back in America Peter Schiffs presidential campaign is picking up steam...

Edited March 20, 2015 by db_zero

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Due to bad economic conditons in the West, consumers have stopped spending and export of goods from South Korea have dropped dramatically. Companies like Hundai, Kia and Samsung have announced huge layoffs. The result is massive discontent in South Korea, especially amongst the younger generation raised and used to living a life of abundance, unlike the older generations used to enduring hard times. Protests have errupted and demands for social programs and welfare have taken place. The normally conservative and business oriented South Korean government finds itself under heavy pressure as calls for a more socialistic government are demanded...

 

Having lived in Korea...eh.  The government is so in the pocket of those businesses I think you'd be hard pressed to see a shift left to a meaningful degree.  And the nationalism of South Koreans (Koreans in general!) is something to behold.  

 

And you're really underestimating how BAD DPRK is these days.  It's not simply a matter of giving them several dozen Type 98s, and some rations and you're good to go.  The primary use of many military formations is not training or even military tasks, but has been more or less turned over to fishing, harvest tasks, or mining.  Reports from defectors indicate that 10-20 rounds per soldier per year is the accepted training standard for rifle marksmenship, and much of the "advanced" gear claimed exists in a secure magic bunkers that their commanders swear exists hidden under the base that no one is allowed to see ever.  

 

You would really have to see a disastrous catastrophic fall with an equally meteoric rise from the North before you see anything sort of resembling parity.

 

When I was over there what we worried more about wasn't them coming down, it was the more likely possibility that we would have to go North.  There's no happy ending to a sudden collapse of the DPRK government, and the reality is someone would have to go in, secure the dangerous stuff like nuclear or chemical weapons sites, restore order, put down the various "True Korean Republic" or "Juche State of Joy and Love" fiefdoms set up by the various DPRK generals, and do it all in a country so improvised that simply dealing with all the disease and total lack of functional infrastructure was going to be a bigger roadblock to mission success than the former DPRK forces.  

 

Also just the reality of working with a population and infastructure so badly degraded and managed to be called maldeveloped vs underdeveloped.  There's virtually nothing remaining in terms of efficient or practical industry, and the people's education is amazingly poor which precludes a rapid handover of much of anything advanced.  Most estimates show that in the event of a ROK takeover, the best way to keep running the country would basically be the same, only without deathcamps for several years simply because it's too hard to change so much so fast, so it's going to have to run very badly for some years to avoid having everything just collapse into dark(er?) ages.  

 

This is really the question of what China would do comes in.  China hates the DPRK.  With a passion of a thousand suns.  However right now they're happier to have it contained and on a sort of leash than in a state of turmoil.  If the DPRK starts a war, China is almost certainly not coming in to help the DPRK (and depending on the circumstances may actually fight nominally allied to the ROK and US).  In a collapse situation thought it might be something modest, like invading in a few KM into the DPRK to secure a buffer zone, to a more ambitious plan to go all the way to Pyongyang while the US and ROK try to claw through the DMZ, install a recently discovered son of Kim Il-Sung who's shockingly pro-Chinese and call it good.  

 

China is pretty opaque about what it would do.  I think the  buffer state option is most likely though as it presents lowest risk to China, offers a high degree of control, but leaves the cost of putting North Korea back together again in the hands of the US and ROK.  

[db_zero]

Dang and I was going to insert Michelle O and PSI marching in unity with the SK students

 

I was just being creative. I just want an Asia module for CM!

 

I read somehwere that North Korea is very angry at China, because it was leaked that if the DPRK goes under they have plans to occupy the Northern part of North Korea to prevent a massive refugee flow into China.

 

Have you even tried the dish in Korea where they give you small live fish you dump into steaming broth? Doesn't get any fresher than that! I won't go near the dog part.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

The scenerio I always used for when I played microarmor was that the DPRK had a fairly quick coup, before the ROK and US could intervene (basically the ROK gets 80% mobilized, additional US troops arrive, enough to call them both war mongerers), new DPRK government gets snuggly with Russia, exchanges goods (labor really) for weapons claiming it needs to protect itself from American imperialism.  Russia obliges as it has more than enough tanks and semi-obsolete (but way better than North Korean's current fleet!) equipment and could use the manpower to work in Siberia (which is already a thing).  DPRK brings in outside investors, plays the "we're authoritarian but business friendly!" card, and then a year or so later launches itself across the DMZ because reunification is the divine mission, but hey suckers, thanks for the tanks and money!

 

Old habits die hard and all.

 

*Edit* I consider the scenario well below Battlefront's standard.  Basically it was an excuse for me to play with the newer GHQ miniatures South Korean tanks, and fight out battles in places I knew of.

 

 

 

I was just being creative. I just want an Asia module for CM!

 

Me too!  I'd love to have a circa 2018ish fight in Korea, largely because the equipment wouldn't be so changed from when I was there, and it'd be fun to play at "if it really did go down"  I'm just picky about the scenario for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

 

I read somehwere that North Korea is very angry at China, because it was leaked that if the DPRK goes under they have plans to occupy the Northern part of North Korea to prevent a massive refugee flow into China.

 

Oh god are they angry at everyone for everything.  Also huge racists (read "The Cleanest Race" for a good summary).  They hate pretty much everything that's not North Korean, and the mythical legions of South Koreans longing to be North Koreans.

 

 

Have you even tried the dish in Korea where they give you small live fish you dump into steaming broth? Doesn't get any fresher than that! I won't go near the dog part.

Nope.  Camp Casey is in the less adventurous part of Korea in terms of cuisine.  Think like...the sort of stuff farmers make.  Mostly hearty, not especially sophisticated, but delicious (eat you some bulgoggi son, and you'll agree).

 

On the other hand, go to Seoul if you're visiting.  It's full of insanity and awesome.  Stay out late, if you're anglo with short hair, you'll get an extra special prodding from the US and Korean MPs to make sure you're not a soldier breaking curfew, but you'll see some epic stuff.   

Edited March 20, 2015 by panzersaurkrautwerfer

[db_zero]

The scenerio I always used for when I played microarmor was that the DPRK had a fairly quick coup, before the ROK and US could intervene (basically the ROK gets 80% mobilized, additional US troops arrive, enough to call them both war mongerers), new DPRK government gets snuggly with Russia, exchanges goods (labor really) for weapons claiming it needs to protect itself from American imperialism.  Russia obliges as it has more than enough tanks and semi-obsolete (but way better than North Korean's current fleet!) equipment and could use the manpower to work in Siberia (which is already a thing).  DPRK brings in outside investors, plays the "we're authoritarian but business friendly!" card, and then a year or so later launches itself across the DMZ because reunification is the divine mission, but hey suckers, thanks for the tanks and money!

 

Old habits die hard and all.

 

*Edit* I consider the scenario well below Battlefront's standard.  Basically it was an excuse for me to play with the newer GHQ miniatures South Korean tanks, and fight out battles in places I knew of.

 

 

Me too!  I'd love to have a circa 2018ish fight in Korea, largely because the equipment wouldn't be so changed from when I was there, and it'd be fun to play at "if it really did go down"  I'm just picky about the scenario for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

Oh god are they angry at everyone for everything.  Also huge racists (read "The Cleanest Race" for a good summary).  They hate pretty much everything that's not North Korean, and the mythical legions of South Koreans longing to be North Koreans.

Nope.  Camp Casey is in the less adventurous part of Korea in terms of cuisine.  Think like...the sort of stuff farmers make.  Mostly hearty, not especially sophisticated, but delicious (eat you some bulgoggi son, and you'll agree).

 

On the other hand, go to Seoul if you're visiting.  It's full of insanity and awesome.  Stay out late, if you're anglo with short hair, you'll get an extra special prodding from the US and Korean MPs to make sure you're not a soldier breaking curfew, but you'll see some epic stuff.   

 

Asians racist? hahaha...I know that all to well. The Japanese hate the Chinese and vice versa and both consider the Korean and other Asiactic races are even lower on the totem pole. If you are an Asian American and go back to your native roots you are still considered an outsider and "not pure". Immigration is tightly controlled in most Asian countries. I wouldn't want to imagine what it might be like being hispanic or African American living in an Asian country. I do know some Euros who love living in some Asian countries.

 

My dad who recently passed away was a Korean War vet and a while back he and other Korean War vets were given very special treatment by the South Korean government for their past service. Definately a forgotten war.

 

As for the cuisine in Asia I  don't pass judgement. It may seem wierd and out of place in West, but whatever floats your boat. I know some groups near where I live are emulating the eating of insects and other creepy crawlers popular in Asia, but don't go near the dog or cat part as I'm sure that would create a hure uproar!

[Jammersix]

This too.  Given the vast difference in terrain, and the fact that only the US forces from CMBS would carry over it would be best served as CM: Land of the Morning Sun or something.  

Morning Calm.

 

The smell of kempshi still repulses me.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Jammersix

[LukeFF]

I was just being creative. I just want an Asia module for CM!

 

Anything to do with Korea / Southeast Asia would be a totally separate game, anyways. Tacking it on to Black Sea as a mere module would be...odd.

Edited March 21, 2015 by LukeFF

[Razgovory]

Honestly, I don't care about the "plot" to Black Sea.  I'd like them to just throw in army or two with each module.  Let the scenario designers figure out why Iran and North Korea or fighting.each other.

[Skwabie]

Asia theater nah... not that popular on the NA/EU market especially on wargames. You can have China go full commie in a few years and set as main antagonist maybe but not yet.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Argh. Can't believe I got the morning calm thing wrong.

[LukeFF]

Honestly, I don't care about the "plot" to Black Sea.  I'd like them to just throw in army or two with each module.  Let the scenario designers figure out why Iran and North Korea or fighting.each other.

 

Well, that's not the way BF does things, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Give the North Koreans a lot of support from China and perhaps make the official scenario a US invasion and it would be interesting enough as a game - Chna is there to provide the NKors decent armour and air support. Plus North Korean Special Forces fighting a guerilla War. Plus of course People's Militia. This way you get a better game of it than a doomed North Korean invasion attempt of the South - though scenarios could explore that possibility.

[Mr0Buggy]

Given recent political climate, it's actually the Russians who are giving/offering support to the North much to Chinese displeasure. (or so I recall, unless I've heard wrong)

Edited March 21, 2015 by Mr0Buggy

[John Kettler]

Some thoughts on this fascinating topic. Let's start with NKA SOF. I don't know what they have now, but during my time at Hughes Aircraft Missile Systems Group (early 1978-late 1984), NK SOF were a nightmare. They were constantly running cross-border and from-the-sea raids via surface craft and subs into ROK territory. Worse, they had no less, per the DIA, than 400 Russian-supplied An-2/COLT single engine, wooden bladed (very important detail), practically all wood transport aircraft, each capable of carrying a squad of highly trained commandos. Because, except for the engine and a few other oddments, there was very little for radar to reflect from, starting with the inconveniently for us missing rapidly spinning metal prop, these birds, big as they were, were practically radar invisible. Big problem. Just thinking about the havoc such a force could wreak made me cringe. Pretty much how the DIA viewed things, too. The language was more measured, but it was absolutely clear DIA viewed the NKA SOF as a major threat. A fanatical one at that. Happily, NKA SOF today are nothing like as grim a threat as when I was a military analyst. Despite their special status, all but the cream of NKA SOF is finding things falling apart across the board, to such an extent there've been defections to both PRC and ROK. Just as well, since the last thing we need are 30,000 well-fed snipers who get plenty of firing practice, rather than current meager allotments. Speaking of meager, ROKA SOF has suffered some painful force size reductions, because of budget cuts. The An-2s are now vulnerable because ROKA now has the means to detect low flyers, whose pilots, I'm happy to say, are not getting many flight hours. Here's a deadly serious look at NKA SOF training for the elite 124th Army Unit from which The Blue House raiders to kill ROK's president Park Chung-Hee came. Two years of training and two weeks on a full scale mockup of The Blue House, ROK's White House. So far, I've yet to encounter anything about recruiting young boys into SOF, but it is a very militarized society, and I have no doubt talent spotters are out there. 

 

One of the people I worked with back then was a guy named LT COL, Ret. Bob Siegrist, a battlefield commissioned WW II officer who was instrumental in getting the Hughes TOW missile into the Army. He was the TOW guy at Hughes when it came to what's what , particularly when it came to effectiveness modeling. Back then, things were ugly. NK forces were huge, the weapon technology gap was nothing like today's, and the ground forces were not expected to be able to hold on ground where, in a real sense, there was no defensible terrain. Consequently, the expectation was the defense line would be the Han River. If this looks familiar, it should, because that's pretty much the bind Ukraine's in, except it's the Dneiper River.  Defending on largely flat, featureless ground vs an armor heavy force coming in huge numbers just doesn't work. Consequently, something had to be done. The solution was I forget how many (quite a few) Hughes 500 helos, each with 4 x TOW. On them lay the burden of taking the steam out of the NK drive to the Han.  You'd be amazed by how much a few feet of TOW sight height affected helo survivability. The difference between chin and rooftop was considerable, but going to mast mounted made a huge difference, which is precisely why the OH-58 Kiowa is configured that way. It really matters. As I recall, the NK didn't have much in the way of SAMs, but they did have AAA, lots of it, including ZSU-23/4s. This was 6+ years after the NVN used them in combat there. Also, for quite some time, TOW had only 3000 (later extended to 3750) meter range, placing it inside the envelope of radar controlled 37 mm and 57 mm guns. But wait. There's more.

 

Unlike today, NKA artillery and MRLs based in caves were practically invulnerable. At best, even the mighty Maverick could hope for jamming the 3' thick sand filled (effectively, siliceous core armor) armored sliding doors covering the tunnel entrance. There were no I 2000s, no JDAM and very few LGB. We fully expected the NKA to sleet Seoul with artillery and rockets and didn't consider it defensible at all against ground attack, but the Seoul of then was nothing like today's Seoul, which might very well be something like Stalingrad with skyscrapers for the attacking NKA. We fully expected Seoul would fall but would be retaken after we'd (ROKA & US) beaten the NKA forces down enough to be able to counterattack. Precisely how it had previously occurred during the Korean War. Had NKA gone chemical, we would've gone nuclear. Or so I was told. 

 

We were also worried, and with very good reason, about NK tunnels under the DMZ. As I recall, the SECRET level Army Corps of Engineers study I read said there were 10, with many more suspected. It was assessed the first tunnel found, Infiltration Tunnel #1 could funnel 2000 men/hr into ROK. but the three monsters discovered later were enough to make strong men quail. These four are the known and officially admitted ones, some of which can move a Division/hour. Unsurprisingly, ROK officials haven't been at all receptive to a retired ROKA general who's been talking 84 tunnels.

 

I don't recall what sort of tanks ROKA had, but I do recall seeing a pic of what was then called ROKIT (Republic Of Korea Indigenous Tank), which looked something like a scaled down Abrams. It was smaller because the men crewing it were, allowing very good protection without the vast weight of the larger US tank. I shall have to take a look at that study of what NKA artillery and MRLs could do to Seoul these days. I found something likely to be of interest. It's a site (NK NEWS.org)  intended to be a nonpartisan clearing house for all things NK. This is the link to the Intelligence part, which is replete with martial goodness.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited March 22, 2015 by John Kettler

[John Kettler]

danzig5,

 

Those propaganda pics are priceless! Whoever did those must come out of the same batch of people who almost constantly manage to use the wrong film clip. I knew North Korea's economy was in trouble, but to see the North Koreans drop from the T-34/85s which gave our bazookas fits in the Korean War to T-34/76s is hilarious. Great pics of stupidly deployed ZIS-3s, though. Here's a plot someone did of NKA range fans. Unfortunately, the graphics person at Business Insider is a dolt and provided no means by which to actually see what's there. Nor does what I'm seeing in terms of range fans track with the statement artillery can reach Seoul and hit it with many shells in a few hours. Perhaps the range fans given fail to reflect the 37 mile range of the Koksan 170 mm gun, whose design strongly resembles that of the US M107 175 mm SPG . Page two shows the plot of the HARTS (Hardened Artillery Sites). Regardless, defense scholar Anthony Cordesman isn't buying the hype about Seoul being leveled in a few hours. The NKA threat to Seoul has gotten much worse with the arrival of a 300 mm MRL.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited March 22, 2015 by John Kettler

[Haggard Sketchy]

Seoul, by all accounts, is a throbbingly vital, 1st world city possessing every amenity conceivable. As  a DRPK apparatchik I'd think twice before letting my troops get a glimpse of the place.

 

Even half destroyed Seoul would make Pyonyang look like Pompeii post-Vesuvius. Only more oppressively sterile.The invading NK troops may also wonder why the South Koreans are several inches taller on average than their own citizens. On the other hand, the communist regimes can't feed their people but they're aces at indoctrination.

 

B.R. Meyers' Cleanest Race (what Panzerguy mentioned) has an interesting take on this. Basically the DPRK's propaganda style emphasizes racial & moral purity, regardless of material well-being. See 34:22. So there may be no such shock to them. North Koreans are quite aware of their inferiority in such respects.

[danzig5]

North Korea is always impressive.

 

Su-100 tarted up with USA markings:

 

Also this monster, unidentified 370mm recoil-less rifle:

 

Also the Yak-18 still flies, admittedly as a trainer and light attack craft:

 

Basically the equipment of the North Korean army is just there so the military has something to do. Even if the upgraded the entire force to T-72m1s or hell even the T-72S they would just fight the Battle of 73 Easting again, but at a even bigger disadvantage as BLUFOR weapons have improved.

[Nerdwing]

Korea 1980's instead, IMO.

 

M60A3 as the best US tank in theatre.  I-TOW Cobras trying to plug gaps in lines.  Arty and MLRS raining down out the wazoo (since it isnt 30 years past its expiration date yet).

 

Would be an interesting theatre.  

Edited March 23, 2015 by Nerdwing

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Korea 1980's instead, IMO.

 

M60A3 as the best US tank in theatre.  I-TOW Cobras trying to plug gaps in lines.  Arty and MLRS raining down out the wazoo (since it isnt 30 years past its expiration date yet).

 

Would be an interesting theatre.  

 

That's a couple of CMK games, a 1970s/1980s version and a near future version. Why couldn't BF do both?

[WriterJWA]

Korea 1980's instead, IMO.

 

M60A3 as the best US tank in theatre.  I-TOW Cobras trying to plug gaps in lines.  Arty and MLRS raining down out the wazoo (since it isnt 30 years past its expiration date yet).

 

Would be an interesting theatre.  

Not bad! That would even the odds a little. BF could probably make a Fulda Gap/WWIII game as well based on the same technology.

[exsonic01]

How do you think about the result of scenario of 2017' PLA vs US Army (or US marines) in urban / mountainous terrain like S Korea now? This could be really interesting match. Though Chinese armor would be hard to match against M1A2 SEP, their infantry mass and fire power would be still challenging for US troops.