CMPzC Operation "Bloody Christmas" (Ortona '43)

[kohlenklau]

Misunderstanding maybe ~ fog of war?

[kohlenklau]

@PhilM 

 

For the (3,6) battle...I am going to shut it down and process the final turns as umpire.

I want to do this to keep fog of war versus the usual end of game map review.

 

 

[PhilM]

@PhilM 

 

For the (3,6) battle...I am going to shut it down and process the final turns as umpire.

I want to do this to keep fog of war versus the usual end of game map review.

 

I just realised, as Drop Box told me the folder had been removed ...

 

Well that's me somewhat puzzled, and somewhat disappointed.

 

I get the FoW thing, for keeping the very last turn unknown ... but there were still 7 minutes left in a 30 minute battle, or a quarter of the time, give or take.

 

Isn't that a large proportion to lop off arbitrarily?

 

And I certainly don't now get all the stuff about gain more ground, and take the buildings objectives, etc: when you've just canned the time I had left to do that?

[ChappyCanuck]

damn...I was enjoying the battle for the wall and hill

[kohlenklau]

Don't worry fellas, we'll roll on forward and all will be well. 

Trust me as the umpire.

Round up the prisoners.

Hand out some medals and food.

Get the engineers looking at the site for the bridge.

PhilM, you are in charge of the bridge construction!

[ChappyCanuck]

I am thinking that the Germans surrendered in this one - they did take a hell of a beating. And now, thanks to Phil, we have a bridge site. A great start!  Now hopefully the 3,7 battle can get on board

[kohlenklau]

PhilM, just as more detail as the view from my umpire eyes...

 

Point A: A few posts back and when you asked about the objective, etc etc

Then I made a small call and recommendation as to achieve a conclusion. etc etc

Point B: I blinked my eyes and viewed a turn this morning and it seemed you were up on it since Point A.

So, I figured why belabor you or draw it out?

 

If you had gotten to the same point after say only 10 minutes of battle and had 20 left, would you want me to have you just chill and swap turns?

[kohlenklau]

Dig in and be ready for a counterattack lads!

[ChappyCanuck]

Counterattack? Since when did the Germans ever counterattack? lol  

[kohlenklau]

@PhilM

 

The battle of hex (3,6) is completed!

 

Normally your Baker Company 2IC and his staff would gather the platoon reports...but their dog tags and jeep are burnt nearly beyond recognition....

Your 4 troop took the most casualties at barely 2 sections left. 5 troop unscathed and 6 troop hit almost as bad as 4 troop.

 

Battalion Pioneer Troop is down to only 2 men and the bridging construction is a no go. 

 

12 troop of the PLDG has 3 of 5 M5's  ready and the other 2 are being examined for extent of damage by the troop senior NCO.

But it might not matter as 4 section and the light mortar are all casualties.

 

Shermans: 5 of 6 are ready. 1 is beyond local repair.

 

Allied Forces summary: 164 OK, 29KIA, 22 WIA. Some of the wounded should be posted back to their units after minor medical treatment.

 

Axis Forces:

44 KIA will eventually be counted. 4 Troop as a weakened troop was assigned to round up and guard the 31 prisoners (many severely wounded) as they head south back over the Moro.

<Maybe 4 Troop will get a hot meal back there and return to battle>.

2 anti-tank guns and a few trucks were destroyed during the battle. "A handful of the enemy were seen to be running north...less than a dozen for sure..." 

Edited June 4, 2015 by kohlenklau

[ChappyCanuck]

Noted. Will await the results of 3,7 before deciding what to do with the engineering resources.

[PhilM]

@PhilM

 

The battle of hex (3,6) is completed!

 

Normally your Baker Company 2IC and his staff would gather the platoon reports...but their dog tags and jeep are burnt nearly beyond recognition....

Your 4 troop took the most casualties at barely 2 sections left. 5 troop unscathed and 6 troop hit almost as bad as 4 troop.

 

Battalion Pioneer Troop is down to only 2 men and the bridging construction is a no go. 

 

12 troop of the PLDG has 3 of 5 M5's  ready and the other 2 are being examined for extent of damage by the troop senior NCO.

But it might not matter as 4 section and the light mortar are all casualties.

 

Shermans: 5 of 6 are ready. 1 is beyond local repair.

 

Allied Forces summary: 164 OK, 29KIA, 22 WIA. Some of the wounded should be posted back to their units after minor medical treatment.

 

Axis Forces:

44 KIA will eventually be counted. 4 Troop as a weakened troop was assigned to round up and guard the 31 prisoners (many severely wounded) as they head south back over the Moro.

<Maybe 4 Troop will get a hot meal back there and return to battle>.

2 anti-tank guns and a few trucks were destroyed during the battle. "A handful of the enemy were seen to be running north...less than a dozen for sure..." 

 

OK, so yet more I don't understand ...

 

My briefing emphasised the importance of keeping the bridge engineers safe: but I never realised that I actually got any "engineers" ...

 

There were two teams described as "Assault", with satchel charges; are they the "engineers"? Cannot think who else is.

 

At my last submitted turn, of those two teams: 1 Section was complete with 4 men; 2 Section had one wounded out of 3 men. So how come the "Battalion Pioneer Troop is down to only 2 men and the bridging construction is a no go."?

 

So ... 4 Troop (platoon)? HQ Team all OK; 1 Section has 2 casualties and a wounded out of 10, 7 OK; 2 Section has 1 casualty out of 10, 9 OK; 3 Section has 1 casualty and 2 wounded out of 8, 5 OK.

 

How is this "Barely two sections left"??

 

And 6 Troop (platoon)  "hit almost as bad as 4 troop" ?

 

6 Troop HQ Team all OK; 1 Section has 2 wounded out of 10, 8 OK; 2 Section has 1 wounded out of 10, 9 OK; 3 Section has 4 casualties and 2 wounded out of 10, 4 OK.

 

?????

[kohlenklau]

@PhilM  Come on Phil!

The casualties did not stop coming in apparently. Artillery continued to fall.

Why didn't you ask where the engineers were to Chappy?

Why didn't you ask earlier about the giant greenish section all along the opposite bank of the river and up the far side in a river crossing mission?

Maybe this is exactly why there are not many of these operations out there. 

I do not enjoy or want to run my operation like a courtroom.

[ChappyCanuck]

Phil, as per your orders earlier:

 

"Here is what you have:  B Coy, RCR, two troops of tanks (6 tanks), a troop of halftracks from 4PLDG (recce), arty (25 lbers) and the Regiment's pioneer platoon (treat them nice!  I used to be Pioneer Platoon Comd for 2 years) At some point the pioneers are released for bridge construction - Koh will let you know the details.

 

Your tanks/vehicles cannot cross the muddy river banks  at this point, although they can provide sp fire,  so we need a bridge. It is imperative that you cross the river with your infantry so that the pioneers/engineers can build that bridge."

 

It's all there. The assault pioneers in CW have always been the engineers - technically they are infantry with engineering skills. Not sure why you don't know this before?

[kohlenklau]

The golden rule is that nothing here is perfect.

I even slipped it into part 1 of the PBEM foot soldiers guide.

 

CMPzC Battle Booklet

(The PBEM Foot Soldier’s Guide)

 

CMPzC is an operational combination of Battlefront’s Combat Mission (CM) and John Tiller’s Panzer Campaigns (PzC).

Here is a link to download the Panzer Campaigns demo if you are curious and want to see what it is like.  http://www.johntillersoftware.com/Demos.php

 

1.    In CMPzC you get to fight some CM H2H battles as part of a greater context. Your victory or defeat down at the platoon or company level will impact the greater overall mission up at the brigade or division level. Additionally, your unit’s casualties in one battle can leave you in a tough spot for later battles. The operation is created by the Game Manager from a PzC game scenario. Nothing is ever perfect and compromises must be accepted in certain areas to allow the Operation to press forward. Thanks for joining us and we hope you enjoy it. 

 

Now for objectives, this is the current guidance and I might add some sentences to prevent any misunderstandings in the future.

 

7.   Battle Objectives: Hit Alt-J to see what objectives are designated. Ask your CO for any clarification on your goals for the battle beyond normal SOP of protecting your own forces and destroying the enemy.  

Edited June 4, 2015 by kohlenklau

[PhilM]

Phil, as per your orders earlier:

 

"Here is what you have:  B Coy, RCR, two troops of tanks (6 tanks), a troop of halftracks from 4PLDG (recce), arty (25 lbers) and the Regiment's pioneer platoon (treat them nice!  I used to be Pioneer Platoon Comd for 2 years) At some point the pioneers are released for bridge construction - Koh will let you know the details.

 

Your tanks/vehicles cannot cross the muddy river banks  at this point, although they can provide sp fire,  so we need a bridge. It is imperative that you cross the river with your infantry so that the pioneers/engineers can build that bridge."

 

It's all there. The assault pioneers in CW have always been the engineers - technically they are infantry with engineering skills. Not sure why you don't know this before?

 

Apologies for my ignorance. Although you seem to be implying that you don't believe me, it was a misunderstanding on my part. I believed that the teams labelled "Assault" were just that, and so moved them forward; and that the Engineers, who must be protected at all costs to build the bridge, were part of the "back story", to arrive if and when the river crossing had been secured and not risked in combat. But given that the crossing was secured, perhaps the teams on the map could still have built the bridge if 4 of the 7 had not succumbed to incoming artillery after the battle was closed off?

 

@PhilM  Come on Phil!

The casualties did not stop coming in apparently. Artillery continued to fall.

Why didn't you ask where the engineers were to Chappy?

Why didn't you ask earlier about the giant greenish section all along the opposite bank of the river and up the far side in a river crossing mission?

Maybe this is exactly why there are not many of these operations out there. 

I do not enjoy or want to run my operation like a courtroom.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to take part. I'll step aside and let someone who understands the game better than me step in so that you run your operation how you like.

[kohlenklau]

@PhilM

 

 

Things on these last few pages headed towards a tone and temperature I feel better off in a private message chat area.

My brain and heart always look to see the inevitable role I played in anything that goes onto the rocks. Just ask my ex-wife!

I should have invited you to such a private area. My fault not to have done that as umpire.

Please stay onboard or at least agree to return eventually. I appreciate that you participated.

[Kuderian]

Congrats on completing your battles Phil & Marco!

 

No serious enemy contact yet in Hex 3,7.

 

[ChappyCanuck]

Nice shooting Kuderian! Another AT gun goes down....but I see another has revealed itself.....

[c3k]

As a (dis)interested observer, I can understand the frustration a player can have, as well as what the arbitrater/designer can have. 

 

There was obviously a misunderstanding and there is also, obviously, a bit of pride at stake...on both sides. Pride for the player because ALL of these games, public and private, showcase our abilities. Pride for the designer, because this is his "baby", and all that entails.

 

PhilM, for whatever it's worth, I sincerely hope you recognize that Kohlenklau did not mean to slight you. These undertakings are very complex for the umpire. I would ascribe this to Clausewitzian "friction".

 

Hopefully, all commanders will remain at their posts.

 

Regards,

Ken

[sburke]

As a (dis)interested observer, I can understand the frustration a player can have, as well as what the arbitrater/designer can have. 

 

There was obviously a misunderstanding and there is also, obviously, a bit of pride at stake...on both sides. Pride for the player because ALL of these games, public and private, showcase our abilities. Pride for the designer, because this is his "baby", and all that entails.

 

PhilM, for whatever it's worth, I sincerely hope you recognize that Kohlenklau did not mean to slight you. These undertakings are very complex for the umpire. I would ascribe this to Clausewitzian "friction".

 

Hopefully, all commanders will remain at their posts.

 

Regards,

Ken

yeah this is part of the nature of a campaign game, both good and bad.  Part of what you want to have is the kind of friction that happens in RL.  S**t happens.  Revel in it and enjoy the battle for it's own sake.  It is important in  these to fully understand the commanders intent and to communicate, but if you don't and it goes t**s up, that is okay too.  In the AAR you speak with your commander and clarify the communication issues and make sure in the next battle it is all clear.  Honestly though the mis communications to me is kind of cool.  Hang in their gents and keep playing.

 

For what it is worth Broadsword and I in our campaigns where it is only the two of us had fewer issues, but we still had discussions prior to and after the battle about how we thought it went, what was the result and why.  Translating the results from a CM battle to the hex OP layer was more a theoretical discussion than a hard and fast set of rules.

Edited June 8, 2015 by sburke

[kohlenklau]

Moro Valley

The attack was launched on December 6th. The slopes were steep; heavy winter rains had swollen the river and turned the ground into thick mud that bogged down armoured vehicles. The enemy was well entrenched and each inch of ground had to be gained the hard way. Counter-attacks followed and the Canadians were forced to retreat. It took two days, December 8th and 9th, to capture San Leonardo. In spite of numerous obstacles, the Seaforth Highlanders, riding on the tanks of the Calgary Regiment, were able to get close to the village. On the narrow road, two tanks plunged down ten metres into the ravine after missing a sharp turn. Violent artillery and mortar fire hit the armoured column and the infantry as they were approaching the Moro River. On the other side, the lead tank struck a mine as it was climbing towards San Leonardo and was stalled, blocking the road and forcing the other vehicles to find their way through the olive groves. Only five tanks were left when the Canadians entered San Leonardo. The Seaforth Highlanders engaged the enemy and silenced their machine gun positions, killing or capturing many German soldiers. Twelve enemy tanks drove into town from the east but in spite of the difference in strength, the Calgarys held fast and destroyed or drove back the German tanks. On December 9th at 1740, the Canadians were solidly positioned in San Leonardo.

[ChappyCanuck]

Commanders and casual campaign observers!

 

There has been some confusion amongst the PBEM commanders at an early stage in this campaign, and I would like to explain how this may have come about, as well as what you may expect to see in the future (to hopefully alleviate further confusion).

 

This Ortona campaign, brainchild of Mr Koh, has not only been a lot of work for him with the campaign design, but also in toying with the conduct of it.  Koh and myself (and I can only assume the Axis commander(s)) have bounced emails back and forth almost everyday for weeks about how we would like to see this unfold. Our desire is to have as “real” a campaign as we possibly can. That means fluidity, that means flexibility, and that means logical reaction and situational awareness, just as real commanders experience in real battles.  We think this would be very challenging and fun!

 

Here is an example of what I mean. Let’s say two attacks are launching simultaneously and adjacent to each other (like our Hex 3,6 and 3,7 battles).  Halfway through the battle, the enemy begins to withdraw in one hex but holds firm in the other. What if the commander wants the forces in the breakthrough hex to immediately flank the enemy in the adjacent hex?  What if he just wants them to keep pursuing forward? There are hundreds of possibilities within such a battle that doesn’t occur in a “traditional” CM battle.  So I need the commanders in this campaign to understand that sometimes they could be in the middle of their PBEM battle, when suddenly they are informed by their CO (me) to stop. Or to withdraw. Or their tank support is being stripped away because there is a breakthrough on their left.  I need the commanders to understand that I am not trying to screw with you, but that something important has happened in the big picture to necessitate such a change. Please be understanding of this.

 

Now, the PzC campaign software is a great tool to bring tactical sized formations to battle and spawn PBEM battles. However, it is limited in scope. For the examples listed above, it falls short, and an umpire is extremely necessary to make judgement decisions on the fly. Koh has probably pulled his hair out a few times with my requests…but he has either made a die roll, or made a logical judgment call, and then he lets me know my options.  I think this has worked very well so far even though you guys have no idea it is happening behind the scenes.

 

Another cause for confusion has been the objectives.  Traditionally, the green locations are objectives to secure, or exit forces off board, etc.  But so far we have had very nontraditional ones. Let’s look at the San Donato battle.  The town was in green, but I told Marco that I had no interest in securing the town at all. His mission was to destroy the long range weapon systems (which he did) so that they couldn’t engage our flank while we were advancing on Ortona.  He was also instructed to picket the town and destroy anything coming out from the town. Very different types of objectives.  And they will most likely continue to be that way.

 

Finally there has been some confusion in communication, which is perfectly natural in war. But here we have a great PM or email system, so if something is unclear, please ask. I prefer the traditional German style of giving orders:  I give you the task(s), the resources, and the time frame and I leave you to it. Then go out and have fun J

 

Unfortunately, we have lost one commander along the way because of some of the confusion generated by the above issues. I would rather not see that happen again.  The goal (I think) is to have fun through challenging situations and to be entertained.

 

Thanks!

 

PS:  My SITREP for turn 2 will be coming tonight!  There is lots that has happened and lots coming up!

[A Canadian Cat]

Sounds good to me. I like the possibilities you outlined of suddenly getting called off or having the tanks drive of to help elsewhere or unexpectedly getting reinforced. Brilliant.

Of course you realise we are going to blame our CO for screwing with us when we fail.

[ChappyCanuck]

that's my job Ian! lol