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M1A2sep (aps) vs. 2x T-90am (aps)


tiefelt
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To learn the game you need to play it over and over. You just need experience. Even experienced players will face different situations and make mistakes. There's no just "beating" the game until you kill the last boss of the last level and "game over".

 

This game is meant to represent a tactical situation where you can give a certain degree of input, the fun stands on the long Learning curve (which is practically infinite).

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Re: Rarity

 

Rarity makes sense in the regards of it being a weapons system that is uncommon IRL.  Basically it's designed less for balancing more for keeping the game "honest" (think World War Two, if you want a big tank battle, it's there to keeping one opponent from simply buying as many King Tigers as possible, rare tank, less common).  The M1A2 SEP V2 is already quite common in the US inventory.  It is indisputably the MBT of the US Army, and there's a few thousand of them.

 

Re: Dealing with Abrams

 

Achieve local superiority.  Use good recon (if you've got UAVs, guess what?  The US can't shoot them down most of the time).  You should also have a general idea of how many tanks the enemy has based on the points going into the match which should let you know how worried you should be.  Look at the objective and think about how you would defend it.  Then look at the best way to approach these defenses.  

 

In so many words, you're trying to account for where his tanks are, where your tanks are best able to fight.  If he's got 14 Abrams, that's pretty scary, but if he's defending three objectives, then all 14 of those Abrams are not likely sitting on one objective.  If one of those objectives as two ways to approach it, then the fourish tanks he's allocated to it are not all likely facing the same approach.  So say two approaches he's likely to have two tanks on each.

 

So once you've figured out where he's got those two tank defending you take all twenty of yours and pile on. 

 

When you're simply going tank to tank on a flat field, you're missing out on this.  The technical capability of the armored vehicle is only a small part of the overall picture.  When you're testing two things sitting on a flat spot it's not a circumstance you're likely to encounter, it's not so much a solution in finding out which machine is optimal, it's discovering which tactic is optimal.

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Re: Rarity

 

Rarity makes sense in the regards of it being a weapons system that is uncommon IRL.  Basically it's designed less for balancing more for keeping the game "honest" (think World War Two, if you want a big tank battle, it's there to keeping one opponent from simply buying as many King Tigers as possible, rare tank, less common).  The M1A2 SEP V2 is already quite common in the US inventory.  It is indisputably the MBT of the US Army, and there's a few thousand of them.

 

 

Ehm, nope.  I was talking only about M1A2 with APS and rarity should apply only to M1A2 with APS, not vanilla M1A2.

 

It will be in the next patch, but not just for the US.

 

The other option is to just ban US APS. It's presence is speculative anyways.

 

Good to know, thanks.

US APS is a plausible  thing for 2017, so rarity(as Tiger tank in CMBN is) will be just enough.

But will trade M1A2(APS) on A-10C  CAS Support with no doubts  :)

 

P.S. Best unit prices in QBs on my opinion were in CMBN.

Edited by animalshadow
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Achieve local superiority.  

 

 

Sure I know that already. But I did not know how much is needed for superiority. After my tests I have even some idea. 

You just dont get that idea very fast by just playing.

 

But you guys can do whatever you think is best. I know how I have learned most of this game.

 

EDIT.

 

When you just play QB:s there are so many variables that you dont get good idea why the result happened. I use tests to eliminate those variables.

Edited by tiefelt
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US has about 500 Abrams upgraded to M1A2 SEP v2 and another 600 to M1A2 SEP v1. The rest are older versions or in reserve. According to wikipedia 

 

As of about a year ago.  Since then several Brigades have completed M1A2 SEP v2 fieldings.  The end state for M1 fleet status is all active duty units, and National Guard ABCTs to be outfitted with M1A2 SEP v2 type tanks.  The only part of that fielding that is uncertain is the National Guard fielding party because of the difference in maintenance expenses.  it might simply be delayed until the regular Army's spares stock is switched over to M1A2 SEP v2 type parts.  

 

There's only one remaining M1A1 equipped regular Army unit last time I checked, which is the 11th ACR which is not really a deployable unit*  Additionally the preoposition ("training") stocks to Europe are currently M1A2 SEP v2, the units slated to go to Europe in the event of a conflict are M1A2 SEP v2 units today. 

 

Which gets to the reality that in 2017, if there's a US tank, it is going to be an M1A2 SEP v2 unless we include National Guard units.  This also contrasts to the fact that there's already more M1A2s in the US inventory than T90As in the Russian inventory, and we're already looking at Russian vehicles that do not exist in number at all being available as if they were in fully fielded service. 

 

So, yeah, no rarity value for "standard" tanks.

 

*It's primary mission is providing the opposing force element for training at the National Training Center.  It has deployed piecemeal to support other operations, but effectively it is unlikely to actually go to war unless Mexico is invading. 

 

 

 

Battlesight firing without lasing at ranges under 1000 meters would greatly help the russian tanks. 

 

It'd really help every tank, but as I suggested in the lasing thread, should be tied to crew quality.  

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This whole discussion reminds me of the Panther/Tiger discussions in CMBO and CMBB.  How do you counter "super" tanks.  The answer back then might be the same as now...definitely not head on.

 

Unfortunately, hail-firing the tank until it is toothless scrap metal doesn't work nearly as well without borg-spotting.

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Unfortunately, hail-firing the tank until it is toothless scrap metal doesn't work nearly as well without borg-spotting.

 

LOL Indeed, getting read of borg spotting makes things much more interesting.

 

 

Re: Dealing with Abrams

 

Achieve local superiority.  Use good recon (if you've got UAVs, guess what?  The US can't shoot them down most of the time).  You should also have a general idea of how many tanks the enemy has based on the points going into the match which should let you know how worried you should be.  Look at the objective and think about how you would defend it.  Then look at the best way to approach these defenses.  

 

In so many words, you're trying to account for where his tanks are, where your tanks are best able to fight.  If he's got 14 Abrams, that's pretty scary, but if he's defending three objectives, then all 14 of those Abrams are not likely sitting on one objective.  If one of those objectives as two ways to approach it, then the fourish tanks he's allocated to it are not all likely facing the same approach.  So say two approaches he's likely to have two tanks on each.

 

So once you've figured out where he's got those two tank defending you take all twenty of yours and pile on. 

 

When you're simply going tank to tank on a flat field, you're missing out on this.  The technical capability of the armored vehicle is only a small part of the overall picture.  When you're testing two things sitting on a flat spot it's not a circumstance you're likely to encounter, it's not so much a solution in finding out which machine is optimal, it's discovering which tactic is optimal.

 

Which is why what @panzersaurkrautwerfer said above is spot on.  One of my most frustrating games in CMBN was a nice big QB with lots of tanks. I was commanding a US force and my opponent bought at least three Tigers (I never new if there were more) plus other supporting armour.  It was scary, damn scary but I did just what @panzersaurkrautwerfer is talking about above.  I used infantry to find out where the enemy was and is used the terrain to mask my movement and get into positions to flank the enemy.  If you are dealing with a dangerous enemy you have to play smarter.  I engaged one Tiger at a time and lost seven Shermans to take out one Tiger (I took out quite a bit of other lessor tanks too not just the Tiger).  My opponent rage quite because Shermans should not be able to beat a Tiger.  Sigh.  That part is not relevant to this discussion though.

 

And frankly A T90 (any type) vs an M1 is a much better match up than a Sherman vs a Tiger.  I have quite a few M1s burning in First Clash and it is because of my opponent's T90s not the ATGMs.

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Interesting that those results irritate someone so much. I just posted what happened.

 

I could be missing something but I don't think anyone irritated with the results.  They are feeling irritated because they think your test is less than helpful.

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I noticed that on many occasions the T-90AM ERA is quite capable of stopping M1's AP rounds. The ERA absorbs the AP (the block disappears), and behind it a ricochet/scratched metal decal appears.

I had a situation where the M1 fired a shot at each T-90AM within the same turn, resulting in both ERA hit results.

 

Moreover, the ERA hit result didn't cause any significal sub-system damage to the T-90s.

 

At least relikt is appearing to work, as is the "offensive" smoke dispensers.

 

Try the same at 1km, I would say that the T-90AM would more survivable, if not less able to acquire the M1. Nothing will survive M1 apfsds at less than 500m.

Edited by Stagler
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Tried at 1000m:

 

-the T-90AM ERA works very well, it completely stops an M1 AP round if it can catch it. Exposed armor sections will get penetrated all the time, causing a destroyed vehicle all the time.

 

-the T-90AM is faster at acquiring/aiming/shooting the target than it was at 2000m.

 

-the M1 is still fast enough at deploying its smoke to avoid getting shot at first (while the T-90AM is still not Always fast enough)

 

-the T-90AM AP rounds score partial penetrations at M1 front (lower hull), which either deal armor spalling (no effect on crew or crew +1 suppression), no damage (no effect on crew or +1 suppression), a sub-system damage (lsr warning happened), or even a total kill (happened once in 4 tests). 

 

Yes, 2000m engagement and 1000m engagement are very different. The M1 has much better precision and is faster at shooting first at long range. At medium range (1000m could be called short, even) it's very different. ERA is reliable as previously, while the M1 armor becomes much more fragile to T-90 AP.

Edited by Kieme(ITA)
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  • 2 weeks later...

Sometimes wood people don't have turns because they don't like turn based. Also, Combat mission isn't friendly with windows 8, so print screen doesn't work unless you have dropbox or are running it through steam. Give old tiefelt a chance and see what he comes up with shall we?

 

As I said in the other thread, 3x T-90AM might of been a better choice tiefelt. The odds are that one would fire by the time the others have been engaged, try that this time.

Edited by Stagler
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Not friendly with Win8...funny I have had three win8 laptops and not a single issue.  FRAPS works perfectly fine with CM in Win8.

 

I have to assume the issue is not very important.  Otherwise someone would just run a simple test in WEGO.  I see people coming in to complain, yet offer nothing to go on.  When tests are repeated, guess what...the issue is not there.  Again, if you want help fixing issues, bring something other than guesses, estimates, and propaganda to the table.  Its not about liking WEGO, its about not sounding like a child because your favorite toy broke.

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Let's change the discussion about "T-90s are nerfed" to "how to defeat the Abrams in the game with the tools given to us".

I'm thinking of 2 or 3 T90s. If a group can distracted the M1 and become sacrificial lambs and one come from an angle where the turret cannot traverse to in time. Just pray it delivers a killing shot.

Edited by jomni
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Use covered approach .. Use precision arty on them when possible to degrade their external systems and optics or get the rare kill. Get close and come from two directions at once. Use infantry or recon troops with the tablets to recon (more discreet) .. Get spots on those Abrams, let the info disseminate through radio / constellation to your tanks before making a move. Will help spotting significantly. In defense, use higher ground, will negate armor sloping somewhat and give you top turret, top Hull hits even frontally if unlucky. Otherwise, double ambush (kill zones from two directions) with flank shots. If you have air assets or attack choppers, use them solely on the Abrams

Edited by antaress73
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