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Those Start books have been a great resource. There's also the updated version of "Bloody Streets" that has started shipping (I think it just arrived). The first edition sold out very quickly (lucky to get one way back when, it was a primary source for the FR module), so order now! I'm happy they re-released it, as it is by far the best source of the military operations in Berlin during the battle.

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On 5/29/2020 at 5:47 PM, benpark said:

Those Start books have been a great resource. There's also the updated version of "Bloody Streets" that has started shipping (I think it just arrived). The first edition sold out very quickly (lucky to get one way back when, it was a primary source for the FR module), so order now! I'm happy they re-released it, as it is by far the best source of the military operations in Berlin during the battle.

with the details they show on the engagements i can imagine these books have been a great source of info for battles etc. i also have this book which is another fantastic read.

9783936519228-uk.jpg

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  • 9 months later...
4 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Another interesting book from the Russian side, perhaps already mentioned. Tank Battles in East Prussia and Poland 1944-1945 by Igor Nebolsin. 

O yes, I do read books from Russian authors too. 😉

I must add the book is largely based upon accounts from Russian soldiers and commanders who where scared stiff to report their real losses to their superiors and who grossly exaggerated those of the enemy. Still, interesting reading. And yes, the Germans also exaggerated enemy losses and their number of casualties were enormous too.

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At the moment I'm reading León Degrelle's book Campaign in Russia which tells the story of the Wallonian Legion, which later on became the Wallonian 5th SS-Brigade, and their fighting on The Eastern Front.

So far in the book they have been fighting under the 97th Wehrmacht Division in Ukraine and Caucasus and León has mostly described the horrific conditions under which they advanced forward in rain, which kept them soaked, and snow, which kept them freezing cold, while they were fighting the Soviet forces in 1941 and 1942.

I am now to begin reading about the Wallonians being taken over by and moved to the Waffen-SS and expect that there will be more descriptions of fighting than of the rain and cold.

The year is soon 1943 and there are the Khorsun pocket, the 1944 fightings around Leningrad and the fighting in the Baltics and maybe a little bit about the fighting during the Ardennes offencive, if León was among the Wallonians from the 5th SS-brigade who fought there, and then the fightings in Germany 1945 left to read about.

Edited by BornGinger
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6 hours ago, BornGinger said:

At the moment I'm reading León Degrelle's book Campaign in Russia which tells the story of the Wallonian Legion, which later on became the Wallonian 5th SS-Brigade, and their fighting on The Eastern Front.

So far in the book they have been fighting under the 97th Wehrmacht Division in Ukraine and Caucasus and León has mostly described the horrific conditions under which they advanced forward in rain, which kept them soaked, and snow, which kept them freezing cold, while they were fighting the Soviet forces in 1941 and 1942.

I am now to begin reading about the Wallonians being taken over by and moved to the Waffen-SS and expect that there will be more descriptions of fighting than of the rain and cold.

The year is soon 1943 and there are the Khorsun pocket, the 1944 fightings around Leningrad and the fighting in the Baltics and maybe a little bit about the fighting during the Ardennes offencive, if León was among the Wallonians from the 5th SS-brigade who fought there, and then the fightings in Germany 1945 left to read about.

Interesting character, Degrelle.

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I've just ordered a second hand copy of Zamulin's 'Demolishing The Myth: The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943: An Operational Narrative' (and yes I did see a website offering a free download).

So when is 'CM : Kursk' due for release?  Or will it be part of 'CM : Babarossa to (just before) Bagration' 😁?

Edited by Vacilllator
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35 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

I've just ordered a second hand copy of Zamulin's 'Demolishing The Myth: The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943: An Operational Narrative' (and yes I did see a website offering a free download).

So when is 'CM : Kursk' due for release?  Or will it be part of 'CM : Babarossa to (just before) Bagration' 😁?

Also check these free research documents https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/16161262.2021.1889278

link to Dr Ben’s Twitter feed 

 

Edited by George MC
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So according to all of the latest papers I've read, the Germans lost hardly any armour at Prokhorovka.  Or am I misunderstanding this?

If Kursk was so bad for Germany, does this just mean losses were somewhere other than Prokhorovka?  It seems not according to the figures.  So the 'badness' was just that they did not achieve a victory in their offensive at Kursk?

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17 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

So the 'badness' was just that they did not achieve a victory in their offensive at Kursk?

To a great extent yes. Kursk was bad business as it both blunted the edge of the German Army and put most of its strength in an awkward place to respond to incoming Soviet offensives. The real grind came along the long road to the Third Winter.

German losses at Kursk were not catastrophic but serious. Especially in comparison with had been achieved in 1941 and 1942 with similar concentrations of force.

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So in summary (from these recent papers, based on supposedly rock solid German and importantly Soviet sources) German losses at Prokhorovka were 16 AFVs maximum, while Soviet losses were 235. 

So Kursk as an offensive may have been a failure for Germany but it looks like Prokhorovka as a battle wasn't? 

Propaganda notwithstanding...

Edited by Vacilllator
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10 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

So Kursk as an offensive may have been a failure for Germany but it looks like Prokhorovka as a battle wasn't? 

Yep, Prokhorovka was a defensive battle where the German Army did very well. And a complete dog breakfast for the Red Army. It's remarkable because of the exchange ratio and the cover up effort.

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4 minutes ago, BletchleyGeek said:

the cover up effort

In Rotmistrov's circumstances this is understandable and surprisingly successful, although apparently it did not go un-noticed by Stalin.

Interesting stuff - so much for the 'facts' we all grew up with 😉.

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Maybe he had a bad day... But seriously, the Allies had a lot of trouble at their mid-level of command (battalion, regiment) for several reasons. Prokhorovka is what happens when mid level officers reinforce failure and higher level officers do not rectify as feedback on decisions comes up the command chain.

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Wehrmacht Combat Reports - The Russian Front (Eastern Front from Primary Sources) Kindle Edition $2.99 CDN.
https://tinyurl.com/hs3kw9b3

German Tactics On the Eastern Front -The Illustrated Edition
(Eastern Front From Primary Sources) Kindle Edition $2.99 CDN.
https://tinyurl.com/mz9awct7

Red Army Armour in Combat (Eastern Front from Primary Sources) Kindle Edition $2.99 CDN
https://tinyurl.com/hsttwsx3

Panzer Combat Reports (Hitler's War Machine) Kindle Edition $2.99 CDN
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B005VQUFAS/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i48

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11 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

In Rotmistrov's circumstances this is understandable and surprisingly successful, although apparently it did not go un-noticed by Stalin.

Interesting stuff - so much for the 'facts' we all grew up with 😉.

What @BletchleyGeeksaid :) But Prokhorovka whilst a pivotal moment on the southern sector was not the decisive material victory claimed by the Soviets. The Soviet anti- tank trench that had stalled LSSAH - that many of Rotmistrovs tanks drove into or veered away from was a key factor. 
 

This is one of Dr Ben Wheatly's studies and covers the AT trench that was a pivotal part of the fighting at Prokhorovka in LSSAH sector. NOTE: I first came across this AT trench mention in v.Ribbentrop's account vividly describes the attack in this sector. Tanks from his zug were some of the few KOd in LSSAH sector. I did an old CMBB scenario called 'Born Again' and it had the AT trench in it. Note dropbox link is a short term transfer.

https://www.dropbox.com/t/CwElScdTyunlQP9b

overall though German losses in the Kursk offensive - especially in men - were serious and losses that would increasingly become harder to replace with quality reinforcements and experienced officers and NCOs. But as importantly it effectively turned the strategic initiative over to the Soviets. 

Edited by George MC
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8 hours ago, George MC said:

What @BletchleyGeeksaid :) But Prokhorovka whilst a pivotal moment on the southern sector was not the decisive material victory claimed by the Soviets. The Soviet anti- tank trench that had stalled LSSAH - that many of Rotmistrovs tanks drove into or veered away from was a key factor. 
 

This is one of Dr Ben Wheatly's studies and covers the AT trench that was a pivotal part of the fighting at Prokhorovka in LSSAH sector. NOTE: I first came across this AT trench mention in v.Ribbentrop's account vividly describes the attack in this sector. Tanks from his zug were some of the few KOd in LSSAH sector. I did an old CMBB scenario called 'Born Again' and it had the AT trench in it. Note dropbox link is a short term transfer.

https://www.dropbox.com/t/CwElScdTyunlQP9b

overall though German losses in the Kursk offensive - especially in men - were serious and losses that would increasingly become harder to replace with quality reinforcements and experienced officers and NCOs. But as importantly it effectively turned the strategic initiative over to the Soviets. 

In hindsight the Germans should have cancelled the Kursk operation and go over to the defensive. Tsouras describes this rather well, although too optimistically in one of his alternate history books. The Russians would almost certain have launched their summer offensives against Orel and Charkow earlier and a strong German defense of these two cities could have resulted in a stalemate at the eastern front in the summer and autumn of 1943. The Russians would perhaps have exhausted themselves even more than in the defense of Kursk. No doubt the Germans wouldn't have been able to hold Orel and Charkow for long, but they would perhaps have had enough strength left for an orderly retreat behind the Dnjepr. On the other hand it's hard to see a better scenario for the Germans from 1943 on, given the enormous numerical superiority of the Red army.

Edited by Aragorn2002
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18 hours ago, Blazing 88's said:

Wehrmacht Combat Reports - The Russian Front (Eastern Front from Primary Sources) Kindle Edition $2.99 CDN.
https://tinyurl.com/hs3kw9b3

German Tactics On the Eastern Front -The Illustrated Edition
(Eastern Front From Primary Sources) Kindle Edition $2.99 CDN.
https://tinyurl.com/mz9awct7

Red Army Armour in Combat (Eastern Front from Primary Sources) Kindle Edition $2.99 CDN
https://tinyurl.com/hsttwsx3

Panzer Combat Reports (Hitler's War Machine) Kindle Edition $2.99 CDN
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B005VQUFAS/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i48

If a concern, I forgot to add in this quoted post of mine that the tinyurl.com links are for amazon.ca. Only the fourth link was short enough to use, the others were very long for posting purposes.

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On 3/22/2021 at 6:45 PM, Vacilllator said:

a second hand copy of Zamulin's 'Demolishing The Myth: The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943: An Operational Narrative'

This arrived in perfect condition (had a small crease on the cover, but has not been read for sure).  Anyway it looks very detailed and very good.  As it's bed-time reading however it may take me a while 😁.

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3 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

This arrived in perfect condition (had a small crease on the cover, but has not been read for sure).  Anyway it looks very detailed and very good.  As it's bed-time reading however it may take me a while 😁.

Ouch, that’s a bit of a wrist breaker, just keeping those 600-odd pages upright is hard enough, don’t fall asleep and drop it on the floor ... you’ll think the house is falling down around you!

Incidentally, and I point this out as someone who has nothing to gain by this or any association with the said company, but if anyone is interested RZM is offering free post for UK customers this weekend, at this here link

I didn’t know they have a UK warehouse which they do now apparently, so delivery won’t be from USA-takes-forever-what-do-they-do-with-parcels-in-the-US?

Offer is for UK only, will be applied at checkout apparently and ends midnight Sunday 28 March. Don’t blame me if it doesn’t work.

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On 6/20/2016 at 4:09 PM, Ivanov said:

...However Forczyk mentioned few tome on the Osprey forum, that he doesn't find the late war as interesting as the 1941-43 period....

I resemble this remark...

Edited by Blazing 88's
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On 3/23/2021 at 9:05 AM, Aragorn2002 said:

In hindsight the Germans should have cancelled the Kursk operation and go over to the defensive. Tsouras describes this rather well, although too optimistically in one of his alternate history books. The Russians would almost certain have launched their summer offensives against Orel and Charkow earlier and a strong German defense of these two cities could have resulted in a stalemate at the eastern front in the summer and autumn of 1943. The Russians would perhaps have exhausted themselves even more than in the defense of Kursk. No doubt the Germans wouldn't have been able to hold Orel and Charkow for long, but they would perhaps have had enough strength left for an orderly retreat behind the Dnjepr. On the other hand it's hard to see a better scenario for the Germans from 1943 on, given the enormous numerical superiority of the Red army.

I agree with Aragorn on this.  Kursk was really dumb thing to do.  Especially after giving soviets months to dig in and plant millions of mines.  Oh, and the panthers they waited so long for that were so important to this?--  nearly all had mechanical breakdowns.  And the outcome? -- germans shoved back hundred+ miles w huge losses.  So overall, very very bad decision.  the soviets had enough men and material to launch other offensives while still holding the defenses in Kursk salient.  So how would german plans ever have succeeded if Soviets were always going to launch attack toward Orel that could cut off the entire northern wing of the offensive unless it withdrew immediately?

then german war memoir propaganda loves to say "we were so close to victory at Kursk but Hitler destroyed our chances!".  ridiculous.  Nothing like Kursk for fun WW2 discussions.

Soviets were very prone to launch offensives that were overly aggressive and germans indeed would've been better off drawing soviet armies into traps and smashing them. 

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