MOS:96B2P Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I was under the impression that when calling for artillery there was an advantage to calling for artillery from a command vehicle as compared to just using a backpack radio. I looked into this and could find no advantage. I also used Platoon, Company and Battalion HQ teams with the same soft factors in iron mode. They all called for fire from a 105mm Battery. The time was always 14 minutes. It did not matter if it was a platoon HQ team using a backpack radio or a Bn. HQ team inside a SPW 251/3 the time was 14 minutes. This was in CMBN v3.11 Engine 3. Am I missing something? Maybe there never was a difference? There was not even a difference in time between a platoon and Bn. team. I must be doing something wrong. Just does not make sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I wondered the same thing lately. It seems it was different before, like you thought, MOS, but maybe we're just mis-rembereing??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 <snip> maybe we're just mis-rembereing??? mj, it may come down to this. Does not seem right .............. I even remember clicking different command units to see which one could get fire on the target sooner. I thought higher up the chain the quicker the arty would respond. Or maybe our memory ............... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Have you tried timing a dedicated FO? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I'm pretty sure I've seen differences between call times for Plt vs Bttn HQs for some assets in previous versions. Maybe this was just an artefact of different soft stats... Looking at my current game, though, I think something has definitely gone missing. The only arty I have is on-board 81mms from the Infantry Battalion that I'm using elements of. Every "Regular, 0 Leadership" HQ (Section, Pltn and Coy) in the Battalion can call them in 6 minutes. However, the Green elements from the Tank Battalion I'm using take 8 minutes, while the Veteran and Crack HQs take 6, so it looks like maybe calling support elements from different formations still attracts a time penalty.There seems to be some consensus over on the BS forum that command vehicles do indeed speed up support calls. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 ...so it looks like maybe calling support elements from different formations still attracts a time penalty. Which makes sense, doesn't it? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Which makes sense, doesn't it? MichaelYes. But that's not the whole of the issue, is it? I'm pretty sure, and others have the same recollection, that using a PltHQ to call in battalion mortars took longer (for the same soft factors) than using Coy or BttnHQ. My observation re: different formations was simply to confirm that the additional expected delay continues to apply in that case. Now, perhaps we're misremembering, or perhaps it's an intended change, alongwith the "one mission at a time, but you can gang modules together" changes to the support call system that came in with v3. Or perhaps it's an unintentional change that could do with patching back in.FWIW, I just found a Green PltHQ in the infantry bttn, and it takes just as long as the green troop HQ in the armour battalion, to call in the infantry battalion's on-map mortars. So it looks, now, to me, like the 2 minute difference between the better HQs (Crack troopHQ, Regular PltHQ) and the Green Troop/PltHQ in calling the mortars is just the difference between Crack/Regular and Green. So the inter-formation delay isn't in effect. Which, as you say, doesn't make any sense. And certainly was present in previous versions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) In my experience, the only thing that matters is the experience of the HQ unit. It doesn't even mean anything if the HQ is in radio contact with anyone or not - not even if the physical radio itself is lost. Edited March 1, 2015 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Have you tried timing a dedicated FO? Michael That was a good idea. I added a Forward Observer. In CM Battle for Normandy v3.11 Engine 3 I had the following teams request fire support from the same 105mm howitzer battery both in and out of the command track. All teams had the same soft factors, Experience: veteran / Motivation: normal / Leadership 0 / Fitness: fit. The following are the results. Back Pack Radio SPW 251/3 German Bn. HQ 14 minutes 14 minutes German Co. HQ 14 minutes 14 minutes German Plt. HQ 14 minutes 14 minutes German FO 9 minutes 9 minutes In CM Black Sea v1.00 Engine 3 I had the following teams request fire support from the same 105mm howitzer battery both in and out of the command track. All teams had the same soft factors, Experience: veteran / Motivation: normal / Leadership 0 / Fitness: fit. The following are the results. Radio /PDA Stryker Cmd. Veh. US BN. HQ 10 minutes 9 minutes US Co. HQ 10 minutes 9 minutes US Plt. HQ 10 minutes 9 minutes US FO 6 minutes 5 minutes It would appear there is no advantage to using command vehicles in CMBN. However there is a small advantage to using them in CMBS. Different level HQ units in both games appear to have the same call times however Forward Observers are quicker. Not the way I thought it worked but unless I am missing something that appears to be the way it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 In my experience, the only thing that matters is the experience of the HQ unit. It doesn't even mean anything if the HQ is in radio contact with anyone or not - not even if the physical radio itself is lost. I think you may be on to something reference the experience of the unit and call times. I will give that a try when I get a chance. When a HQ units radio is lost (probably failed to buddy aid it off the dead RTO) I think they can still call for fire since a land line wire radio is somehow abstracted in the game. I have lost RTOs but never had a HQ unit without a lost radio call for fire support. In those cases I think my CO was KIA with the RTO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 <snip> FWIW, I just found a Green PltHQ in the infantry bttn, and it takes just as long as the green troop HQ in the armour battalion, to call in the infantry battalion's on-map mortars. So it looks, now, to me, like the 2 minute difference between the better HQs (Crack troopHQ, Regular PltHQ) and the Green Troop/PltHQ in calling the mortars is just the difference between Crack/Regular and Green. So the inter-formation delay isn't in effect. Which, as you say, doesn't make any sense. And certainly was present in previous versions. Following up: In CM Battle for Normandy v3.11 Engine 3 I had US Platoon HQ teams request fire support from the same 105mm howitzer battery. All teams had the same soft factors with the exception of experience. Motivation: normal / Leadership 0 / Fitness: fit. The following are the results. Elite 13 minutes Crack 13 minutes Veteran 13 minutes Regular 13 minutes Green 15 minutes Conscript 18 minutes I thought it use to be that a Bn HQ could call for fire faster than a Plt. HQ and a HQ in a command vehicle faster than one not in a command vehicle. In CMBN it appears the only difference is with green and conscript HQs. Just when I think I am catching on to the game mechanics I find out I am wrong again............... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 @ MOS, Thanks for running these tests. It's good to know how things work, and the manuals often leave large gaps of information. Michael 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I'm pretty sure Veteran HQs used to call in faster than Regular, too. So, there's no difference between formations (for assets organic to a given Formation), no difference due to level of command, no difference for experience except for "substandard" troops, and no difference if you're using a command vehicle. Yet I'm sure those things other than the last, which I'm not sure about, used to make a difference. So is this really a set of changes, or have I been operating under a misconception? And if it is a change, is it intentional, or accidental? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I just tested this with a v2.12 installation and got the same results, so if it has been changed it was done prior to that version. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Probably just an artefact of perception, good/bad HQs and FO benefits then. FOs do call faster, right? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Nicely done. Of course, seeing the times for different weapons (60mm mtrs on up...) would REALLY be good. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 reading the manual, it seems like there might be some other things at play here. Your tests are probably done in ideal circumstances but stress, C2, and an abstracted "matchup rating" all come into play in the heat of battle: C2 Links - ideally the Spotter should show green connections to all superior units. The spotter also needs a connection to the firing unit in order to be able to call on it to fire. Units without a communication link to the spotter are shown as “out of contact” in the Support Roster. Stress Level - suppressed or shaky units don’t make the best Spotters Matchup rating - Depending on how urgently Support is needed, the Matchup rating (see next section “Support Roster”) may be critically important. The Matchup value reflects the difficulty a specific Spotter has in getting in touch with a specific asset and securing permission to use it. A Platoon HQ will have difficulties reaching a Regimental howitzer battery, for example. In fact, in some cases, such requests may be outright denied. If this is the case, then “Denied” is shown in the Support Roster on the affected asset. Remember, if the Spotter doesn’t appear to be up to the task, another Spotter can be selected. To do this, either deselect the current unit or click on the “X” in the upper left hand corner of the Support Roster. There are no game penalties for checking out how various units pair up with different Assets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 That quote implies that a lowly Two Ell Tee is going to have a harder time getting hold of 105s than a full bird Colonel at the head of a Battalion, which should surely be reflected in the call time, but apparently isn't. The only way to check how "various units pair up with different Assets" (for those combinations that are permitted) is to look at the delay time in the support asset info card. My observations have, indeed, been conducted "in the heat of battle", though the Green infantry platoon HQ and the green troop HQ from the tank battalion weren't heavily engaged, the tank (a Crusader AA) had been firing on a Panther at an earlier juncture (soon put a stop to that!), which has to have induced at least a little "pucker factor" into the equation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 ...a full bird Colonel at the head of a Battalion... In the US Army, which is what it appears you are talking about here, a full bird colonel would be leading a regiment and not a battalion. The latter would normally be led by a Lt. colonel (silver leaf). Just picking nits here... Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Maybe the little bird and his XO got geeked and the Old Man is slumming it with /3 until a replacement can be assigned... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Maybe the little bird and his XO got geeked and the Old Man is slumming it with /3 until a replacement can be assigned... Nah, odds are he'd be too busy running the regiment. What he'd do is grab a major off his staff and send him down. That was done often enough to regard it as a fix, even if a temporary one. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoOhm Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Question, it may have been answered already, if not - you guys can do some of your beloved testing Accuracy - after waiting that long - whats the average spread when it finally Splash - FFE! And 18 minutes?! those Arty dudes sure have a nice time behind the lines 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoOhm Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 On 3/2/2015 at 5:42 AM, Michael Emrys said: @ MOS, Thanks for running these tests. It's good to know how things work, and the manuals often leave large gaps of information. Michael I sign that any day - would be nice with some numbers etc - is it better to kick out the Guld bar dudes and let the FO´s enter the vehicle and cal the strike. Who uses the drone best in combo with arty, the FO, the highest in command and is Drones even necessary for Air Controllers? We get a 15 something page manual of a 2000 page basics - the rest is up to us. but hell, commanding is hard if you realize the driver calls arty better than the FO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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