Wiggum15 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Hi ! I dont know but at least the panic behavior of wheeled vehicles is really bad ! I just had a Truck on a road come under fire 30 sec in the turn. The vehicle would just need to drive backwards 10m to be save (it then would be covered by the terrain). The turn ended and the vehicle did not move (still under fire and one of the crew WIA, vehicle status SHAKEN). I ordered the vehicle to just drive backwards on the road into safety. The next turn starts, the vehicle moves one meter and then...the vehicle status changes to PANIC...the vehicle stops (canceling my order), turns 45° and drives backwards into the woods...still facing the direction where the fire came from !!! At the end of the turn the vehicle was deep in the woods, still facing enemy fire and then got KO'ed with a RPG. All that could have been avoided by driving 10m backwards like i ordered the vehicle to do ! Again, just as with infantry, as soon as the status becomes PANIC, your virtual soldiers turn into incredible stupid suicide machines. Please, this needs tweaking ! Edited February 28, 2015 by Wiggum15 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexey K Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Again, just as with infantry, as soon as the status becomes PANIC, your virtual soldiers turn into incredible stupid suicide machines. That is whole point of panic 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieme(ITA) Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) I belive it's quite hard to model this. It's virtually impossible to settle the AI for any kind of situation you can have (a building, a ditch, a deperession, a wall, whatever it is it will Always be different, depending on where the shooting come from). Besides, the Whole idea of paniking is mainly that your input is completely impossible. Edited February 28, 2015 by Kieme(ITA) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banex Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 There'd be no panic if sufficient scouting is done before moving any vehicle.If none are available at the start of a scenario basically nothing moves until there is.Basically i'll tell my guys to brew up some coffee,play some cards and have a smoke...........oh and deal me in lads. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 As others noted, we have a tendency in the player as god mode to see the rational response in a given situation and then expect our pixeltruppen to take that. However that belies the whole point of panic and irrational behavior. So the truck driver is freaking out at incoming fire. Maybe he stalls the truck, maybe he slams it into reverse, maybe he is trying to reverse and turn to drive away, maybe he just slams it into reverse and doesn't care about direction. There are a lot of possibilities. What you have to accept for sanity's sake is, the rational thing even the obvious thing is now irrelevant. You need to suppress the enemy to save that guy. If you can't then you basically screwed up getting a soft vehicle into position of taking observed fire. It happens to us all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Also try and view things as the end result being generally correct most of the time rather than the expecting the game to model reality perfectly which is impossible to do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) That is whole point of panic No, its not. Professional Soldiers, especially battle hardened US soldiers should not act like this. I said it already in the other thread, PANIC in the military way does not mean behaving completely irrational ! What you do is just searching for excuses, the TacAI is fundamentally flawed since Shock Force ! It cant be that hard to code a AI that is able to get in the closest save spot as fast as possible, they had enough time since 2007. PANIC is a state in which the survival instinct takes over and the soldiers no longer care about orders or being combat efficient, they want to get out of harms way as fast as possible. Now please... Or could it be that the US guys ingame just panic way to quick ? Every time i had my troops going to commit suicide because they panicked it was with US forces...one should expect them to be some of the most well trained and battle hardened vets out there... Edited February 28, 2015 by Wiggum15 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeCK Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I agree 100%. Panic should mean the troops run away from the battle disregarding the mission or safety. That said...panicking troops should run AWAY from the threat. I have had troops pinned down in the woods start to panic. Instead of running away, they stand up and run forward. I've seen soldiers get shaken in Iraq in some bad situations but never panic so they just start running around the streets 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) mikeCK, you will soon notice that most people here think that panicking soldiers should go total nuts, starting to run towards enemy tanks while taking Selfies and throwing away their weapons... Or even better, maybe they should just shoot their comrades...that would be irrational too. Edited February 28, 2015 by Wiggum15 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 well, I would disagree with your characterization of panic. Panic does actually mean losing control of a rational decision making process, that is part of why those units can no longer be issued commands. Even battle hardened troops can panic. Now if you feel US troops panic too quickly, I'd suggest looking more at the soft factors assigned to the troops. Ignore for a moment the naming of the various levels, crack, elite etc and instead view them as a sliding scale of motivation, leadership etc. If you think the actions of those units don't reflect their capabilities, kick the scale up. The assumption they are battle hardened vets is not a good one. For example there is a new video out called "the November War." http://www.thenovemberwar.com/ It is focused on a Marine unit in Fallujah. This unit had no prior combat experience at all when committed. It was shipped directly from the Pacific into the most intense urban fight the US has faced since the Vietnam war. They acquitted themselves well, however the point is assuming US units are battle hardened Vets is simply wrong. Most are not and in our theoretical period even less so as this is years after US withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. US units are well trained and I think highly motivated, but definitely should not be viewed as battle hardened veterans. If anything I would assume that Russian units might have a better claim if one were to go by events now. If however viewed strictly from the story line, neither side has combat experience to any great degree. US units may have some core veterans in leadership positions. Both sides at this point should have a professional core of trained soldiers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) mikeCK, you will soon notice that most people here think that panicking soldiers should go total nuts, starting to run towards enemy tanks while taking Selfies and throwing away their weapons... Please stop mis characterizing the discussion. You are only pushing folks like myself to not participate. Another factor to include - what is the position of troops relative to the "friendly map edge". Troops in panic will in the absence of a spotted enemy move towards it (and panicked troops suck at spotting). That may influence some of the behavior you are so quick to add exclamation points to. The AI is not human, don't make the mistake of forgetting basic code requirements and their influence on TAC AI behavior. Edited February 28, 2015 by sburke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) I did not say all US troops should be battle hardened vets, but they should have way more then the Russians for example, especially in leadership positions. The issue is, currently there is no real logic behind the panic behavior, its completely random ! Some think that realistic but for me thats just a excuse for a non existing or very bad TacAI in such situations ! Edited February 28, 2015 by Wiggum15 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraft Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Panic is a sudden sensation of fear which is so strong as to dominate or prevent reason and logical thinking, replacing it with overwhelming feelings of anxiety and frantic agitation consistent with an animalistic fight-or-flight reaction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic About US being not elite enough, buy a "typical" Russian/Ukrainian formation and then buy a US formation and compare the stats. Edited February 28, 2015 by Kraft 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I did not say all US troops should be battle hardened vets, but they should have way more then the Russians for example, especially in leadership positions. The issue is, currently there is no real logic behind the panic behavior, its completely random ! Some think that realistic but for me thats just a excuse for a non existing or very bad TacAI in such situations ! Should they? Let's just take as an example current reality and project out 2 years. Whose forces should have better experience in modern combat arms US or Russian? I'd say Russian. US forces have faced an enemy with no appreciable modern weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan. The lessons learned there have limited application in a full on modern battlefield. Russia on the other hand has faced off with a relatively modern army with aircraft, artillery and tanks. Granted it isn't widespread based on scale of commitment, but there are Russian BN level commanders getting much better first hand experience than ANY US commanders at comparable levels. As to panic behavior note the variables I have indicated above and remember the game limitations - friendly map edge, spotting and awareness of where enemy forces actually are etc. TAC AI is not non existent. Gaps in how it responds to previously known threats that are no longer in LOS yes, that is going to be an issue. Could you write a better TAC AI. No. At a certain point you do have to accept the limitations of the game. If you can't you will simply continue to be frustrated as changing TAC AI behavior to deal consistently with a variety of circumstances is just ridiculously hard. That it works as well as it does is pretty amazing. That it has issues where it seriously fails is not surprising, especially if you look at RL situations and see people do s**t that is just a stupid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The issue is, currently there is no real logic behind the panic behavior, its completely random ! Some think that realistic but for me thats just a excuse for a non existing or very bad TacAI in such situations ! You will of course explain now how your own background qualifies you as an authority about how people should behave in dangerous, highly stressful situations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 You will of course explain now how your own background qualifies you as an authority about how people should behave in dangerous, highly stressful situations. I can. First I make a note to go do laundry as I need new underwear. Then I scream in a high pitched voice, perhaps subconsciously thinking someone will think a woman is in distress and then come to my assistance. I then run. Direction is random as I have my eyes closed knowing if I can't see them, they can't see me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Could you write a better TAC AI. No. Really ? I hope you dont complain about your new car if it has malfunctions, i mean, could you build a better car ? I already knew the forums here are full of people that will defend even the most flawed aspect of the game, even the most stupid and obliviously buggy TacAI behavior but i did not expect it at that scale, sorry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Really ? I hope you dont complain about your new car if it has malfunctions, i mean, could you build a better car ? I already knew the forums here are full of people that will defend even the most flawed aspect of the game, even the most stupid and obliviously buggy TacAI behavior but i did not expect it at that scale, sorry. Okay that is twice, I don't need a 3rd repeat of your snarky little responses. If disagreeing with your perspective means I can't possibly have a valid opinion (you left off the implied fanboi there, kudos to you) I'll leave you to talking to yourself. If you want a polite discussion of the subject I am here, but you are going to have to change your tone if you want a discussion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedbump2 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) sburke, get back in the Pool. And remember, just under the ribs!! Speedbump Edited February 28, 2015 by speedbump2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Really ? I hope you dont complain about your new car if it has malfunctions, i mean, could you build a better car ? I already knew the forums here are full of people that will defend even the most flawed aspect of the game, even the most stupid and obliviously buggy TacAI behavior but i did not expect it at that scale, sorry. Apples to oranges. Look, I hate to break it to you, but you're another sad, entitled dweeb complaining about non-issues because of your blatent sense of entitlement brought on by mommy telling you how special you were for years has really skewed your perspectives. Edited February 28, 2015 by CaptHawkeye 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Apples to oranges. Look, I hate to break it to you, but you're another sad, entitled dweeb complaining about non-issues because your blatent sense of entitlement brought on by mommy telling you how special you were for years has really skewed your perspectives. huh, funny you'd think you and I had conspired to write similar responses on 2 different threads. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I should be packing for a trip on my day off, but instead I need to come in here and tell you guys to stop bickering like children. So here is what is going to happen: Stop getting personal with each other and curb the insults (veiled or otherwise), or I'm going to start handing out suspensions. This goes for the other thread as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Sorry ChrisND.Its sad that the only response you get here is:a ) your point is invalid, there is no flaw or bugb ) if there is a flaw or bug...try to make a better game or stop complainingI really would like to discuss the in my opinion flawed TacAI panic behavior, i dont want to insult anybody. Edited February 28, 2015 by Wiggum15 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 <snip> I really would like to discuss the in my opinion flawed TacAI panic behavior. I get frustrated when my troops get pinned or panic and refuse to take any orders. One of the things I found that can help is the Instant Command Evade. It works in the orders phase of We-Go. It will give you a fast waypoint even when the troops refuse all other commands. You can then click and drag this waypoint to a relatively safe location. So if the automatically appearing Evade waypoint has the troops running out the front of the building into the line of fire you can drag it out the back door where it is safer. This has solved most of my problems in this area. Hope that helps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Thanks MOS:96B2P but as far as i know the Evade Instant Command starts with the begin of the next turn.So if you order EVADE during the Action phase the waypoint only gets set for the next Order phase were you can drag it around.This can be already to late if your troops panic after 10sec into the turn and decide to run towards the enemy.But i sure will try it again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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