Jump to content

Line of sight (-TOOL)


Recommended Posts

Sirs,

 

we really need a easy-to use line of sight tool. This would make live much easier in CM. Terrain analysis ist key (we all now). But it's soooo complicated to use the waypoint and target function to do this. 

 

So dear sirs from battlefront - what do you think about it?

 

Thanx

Daniel

Link to post
Share on other sites

I -think- that Steve said that they wouldn't inculde a LOS tool because it would make the game to controllable. Right now we have the option to target and, while it is a bit annoying to use, it offers surprises if you don't look precisely enough. I don't think that BF wants to eliminate those surprises.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 years later...
On 2/28/2015 at 8:03 PM, Hafer said:

Sirs,

 

we really need a easy-to use line of sight tool. This would make live much easier in CM. Terrain analysis ist key (we all now). But it's soooo complicated to use the waypoint and target function to do this. 

 

So dear sirs from battlefront - what do you think about it?

 

Thanx

Daniel

I don't use the waypoint and target function system it is gamy, and it doesn't work. A strong 'sound contact' is the indication you may have a line of sight. Sound Contact is misleading just contact is enough. Eyeballing is enough from Camera position one, one notch up with the mouse wheel and you have what an AFV's sees. No LOS also means the unit is not looking. You may have a computer your troops don't. Make sure all your contacts icons are shared. Armor have often a different C3 structure to share the contacts of your security units their HQ's must be in proximity of each other, Arty Spotters too. Your snipers observe and the arty spotter remains blissfully unaware. I read plenty of comments that the game sucks! It doesn't. Your HQ's have their assistants use them and pair them with your spotters. Experiment put them if there is room in the FIST vehicle for example. Use DOPE the sniper's bible. Your computer is your weapon against your opponent. Data Of Personal Equipment get a notebook and pen down what works and what doesn't. I recently found out the Javelin is great in knocking out Kornet batteries, but you need to target it manually. At armor it will do so automatically. You need a Contact Icon first before there is a LOS very rarely, I get an identified icon. I play on Iron for that reason you get a clearer picture of how the game engine works. Kind regards.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree with @chuckdyke to the extend that the LOS tool has some shortcomings that can bite. Norman orchards and the the effect of a reverse slope are a good example. In some scenarios you can test LOS over a field and see it blocked by a reverse slope, even if this is not quite evident from the '1' pixeltruppen view. Often, as the scenario plays out vehicles can be spotted well beyond this apparent limitation. Likewise I"ve seen actual LOS through orchards and multiple tree lines be surprisingly good. Often I hear myself saying 'well ****, they got LOS through all that?" 

That being said I still like it as a simple planning tool, but you learn its foibles through experience.

Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Sulman said:

I do agree with @chuckdyke to the extend that the LOS tool has some shortcomings that can bite. Norman orchards and the the effect of a reverse slope are a good example. In some scenarios you can test LOS over a field and see it blocked by a reverse slope, even if this is not quite evident from the '1' pixeltruppen view. Often, as the scenario plays out vehicles can be spotted well beyond this apparent limitation. Likewise I"ve seen actual LOS through orchards and multiple tree lines be surprisingly good. Often I hear myself saying 'well ****, they got LOS through all that?" 

That being said I still like it as a simple planning tool, but you learn its foibles through experience.

Thank you, I will use the game of cricket as an analogy. The grass is green and kept in optimal condition. I used to play the game socially. Batsman hits the red ball it flies through the air in full view of everybody and it lands 10 meters from John (not his real name). Does John see the ball? No, the other fielders do but not John, John didn't have a LOS when he should have. It is like hitting a target with your sidearm. Yours truly here could hit the UIT rapid fire target inside the 10 ring (playing card size) at 50 meters during a service pistol match. The important thing was perfect LOS, and the target didn't shoot back. Hypothetically speaking if I was the pixel trooper and you click me to shoot at the HQ at 50 mtr while they are surrounded by a company of highly motivated elite troops, I will tell you to jump in the lake by not having an LOS. It is the way the game is meant to be played; I think. Experiment in this game. Scouting games, I liked is 'Edge of Darkness' and 'Insertion and Interdiction'. In 'Edge of Darkness' the TAC Observer never get a direct visual in the game. Yes, the scout before him had a few snipers also but not the TAC Team. Why was that? My theory is the team is highly skilled but not get an LOS. In the game if you identify enemy troops according the game engine, they could identify you (I could be wrong). The game lets you plot an airstrike which get duly destroyed. Snipers are superbly equipped, and I use them as secondary spotters. They confirm the destruction of the target which is important and one of the roles of infantry. Always be conscious if you can hit something, something could hit you. My experiences were on Iron difficulty it may be different on Veteran for example. We bought the game to enjoy ourselves.  Wish you happy gaming for 2021

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Each member of an infantry squad has a different LOS. For an anti-tank team the two members have differing LOS. A standing soldier has different LOS than a kneeling soldier, has different LOS than a prone soldier. I recall in a T34-76 (where the commander also acts as gunner) he'd have LOS on a target up in his commander's seat but lose it when he slips down into the gunner's seat. In CMx1 a unit's LOS was abstracted from a single point so it could be graphically displayed. In CMx2 LOS is individual and dynamic.

When I play the game I spend a lot on my time at ground level looking over the shoulders of the troops. Its not great for overall situational awareness but I can see what the soldiers are seeing. When I switch to camera level 3 I have better control of the battle as a whole but I lose my ability to discern terrain folds and LOS obstructions.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2020 at 11:38 PM, Sulman said:

In some scenarios you can test LOS over a field and see it blocked by a reverse slope, even if this is not quite evident from the '1' pixeltruppen view. Often, as the scenario plays out vehicles can be spotted well beyond this apparent limitation.

The LOS / Target line is taken to be from the height of the unit at the present time.  If an infantry team is prone your target line from a waypoint next to a wall will show no LOS over the wall.  After your troops arrive and kneel next to the wall they can see over it. 

Reverse slope no aim point - When the LOS / Target tool reads "Reverse slope no aim point" this means that if a tall enough enemy unit (generally a vehicle) enters that location your unit will probably have LOS to that enemy unit (and vice versa).  Smoke and other factors may also play a role.     

 

On 12/30/2020 at 11:38 PM, Sulman said:

I"ve seen actual LOS through orchards and multiple tree lines be surprisingly good. Often I hear myself saying 'well ****, they got LOS through all that?"   

Yes, this type of LOS/LOF occasionally surprises me. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Yes, this type of LOS/LOF occasionally surprises me. 

Clutter seems to have a significant effect on the spotting algorithm. You don't need much partial concealment to gain a pretty decent bonus against being spotted, at least before spotting the enemy. There's a definite first shot bonus to it. It doesn't take a lot either, for example a small shrub in front of a tank parked in a garden seems to buy that tank a lot of security against being spotted  (quickly) from that direction.

Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Sulman said:

a small shrub in front of a tank parked in a garden seems to buy that tank a lot of security against being spotted  (quickly) from that direction.

Park your tank directly behind a small tree and any enemy fire that comes in that direction will hit the apparently indestructible tree and the vehicle may be 100% unaffected.  Unless the enemy gun moves, it can exhaust all its ammo in this way.  AI controlled guns especially can be made useless by this trick.  

I will add this to the ODDITIES thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If we're throwing around acronyms, this discussion is less about LOS and more about FOW. You the scenario commander cannot tell if scampering a unit to a location is guaranteed to provide them with LOS because you the real world commander wouldn't know either. A LOS tool would be giving you more information that you'd have in a real world situation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the game was not designed for this. LOS tool just to give me a rough idea. Positions and the shadows in the game play a role. If you have a hull down and there are 2 shadows effects between you and the target you usually get the first shot in. Place every shot as you would do it in real life. From a position before you're spotted. You may have a Javelin but if a tank stands in the shadow and partially in the shadow or a roof of a building the Javelin can mis on occasion. Immersion and Interdiction scenario don't use the Javelin against the T72. It seems to miss every time, or he has some electronic defense we don't know about. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MikeyD said:

If we're throwing around acronyms, this discussion is less about LOS and more about FOW. You the scenario commander cannot tell if scampering a unit to a location is guaranteed to provide them with LOS because you the real world commander wouldn't know either. A LOS tool would be giving you more information that you'd have in a real world situation.

I agree with Mikey D 100 %. The job of the scouts or the first section you commit. In the larger scenarios even the first platoon. See that they pass on their contact icons asap. I know I have a LOS upon correct spotting and identifying a contact. 90% of the time you don't have to manually plot except when you spot 2 or more contacts. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Sulman said:

Clutter seems to have a significant effect on the spotting algorithm. You don't need much partial concealment to gain a pretty decent bonus against being spotted, at least before spotting the enemy. There's a definite first shot bonus to it. It doesn't take a lot either, for example a small shrub in front of a tank parked in a garden seems to buy that tank a lot of security against being spotted  (quickly) from that direction.

Please read the comment of @MikeyD FOW may prevent you at times LOS (my understanding). It makes perfect sense, manual plotting or requesting an LOS tool makes people wish for instant spotting which is not realistic. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Please read the comment of @MikeyD FOW may prevent you at times LOS (my understanding). It makes perfect sense, manual plotting or requesting an LOS tool makes people wish for instant spotting which is not realistic. 

It's nothing to do with my point, though. That's about the tool's efficacy, this is about the effect of mild cover on the spotting algorithm.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Sulman If I plot a spot on the map and see on the screen an enemy unit appearing on the very same spot but can't place area fire at the enemy unit FOW makes sense. Cover and concealment is part of FOW as I understand it. I can't be bothered anymore with it. LOS if you see the identified unit and the AI opens fire. Somehow the game has become a lot more enjoyable.

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

What?

San Diego was nice weatherwise, San Francisco was just cold for me at times. I was there in April three years ago. Never forgive myself not visiting the Patton museum, I just realize it was nearby.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some Graphics about LOS I had to paint the CM tool myself as the screenshot didn't copy it also the windows were not copied. There is some confusion about LOS. On the outside it appears nonsensical. The sniper sees the building, but the NO LOS pops up. You need to go and plot on the floors at times but not every time.LOS-Out.jpgLOS.jpgTop-LOS.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...