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Spotters' posture


Euri
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This happens to me all the time. I find some good observation posts for my spotters or recon units with nice lines of sight. I am taking about OP more than 1,5km distance from enemy positions. I get them there unoticed but as soon as they arrive they go prone on the ground and as a result they loose line of sigh as a result of short vegetation or cabbages! (lol) 

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If you give them the order to Hunt to the Action Spot they already occupy then I think they will at least get up and shuffle about a bit, hopefully improving their spotting ability in the process (but also making themselves more likely to be spotted, unfortunately).

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Hmmm. I don't think this outcome is inevitable. Last night I was playing in BN, and placed two units on the top of a hill and gave them both hide orders. So they too were lying flat prone, but it didn't prevent either of them from spotting or even calling in arty strikes. The key difference might be the kind and amount of vegetation potentially blocking the LOS. You say cabbages (and short grass?), which to me doesn't seem likely to be a problem unless it is growing on a low rise that you might have missed. Have you tried taking a look from the spotters' POV in the 1 view? I've noticed that it can be very difficult to see minor or even moderate ground undulations from any view higher than 2.

 

Michael

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I think SOPs would go a long way in solving this problem (and others).

 

Although it isn't quite clear to me how SOPs could solve this particular problem, I agree that they might make others run a lot more smoothly. BFC has adamantly refused to countenance them however, and after fifteen or more years of refusing to do so, I am still not clear on their reasons why. Maybe it was all spelt out at one point and I just missed that post. They usually have very good reasons for their choices of what to include or not include, but so far this one has eluded me.

 

Michael

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Although it isn't quite clear to me how SOPs could solve this particular problem, I agree that they might make others run a lot more smoothly. BFC has adamantly refused to countenance them however, and after fifteen or more years of refusing to do so, I am still not clear on their reasons why. Maybe it was all spelt out at one point and I just missed that post. They usually have very good reasons for their choices of what to include or not include, but so far this one has eluded me.

 

Michael

 

You can instruct your units to position them themselves in areas that have good sight lines or you can instruct them to use more cover/concealment. Of course this level of micromanagement isn't entirely realistic but we have to realize that there are limits to the AI and the player must be able to control some things. 

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I tried it. It works for the 1st split second and then prone again  :(

Yep, I am currently struggling to get three separate Javelin teams to fire at tanks 2000m away across the Valley of Death because they all have daffodils in their face. If I ask them to Hunt they get up, spot a tank and immediately hit the dirt again, losing the spot before they can get around to "aiming".

Didn't troops occasionally get up on one knee to spot in CMBN? They don't seem to do that very much in BS and I am now on the fifth Valley of Death reload trying various combinations of orders, arcs and movements to get a Javelin team (who I have positioned in a wide open field with a dangerous lack of concealment, out of desperation) to fire a damned missile!

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Yep, I am currently struggling to get three separate Javelin teams to fire at tanks 2000m away across the Valley of Death because they all have daffodils in their face. If I ask them to Hunt they get up, spot a tank and immediately hit the dirt again, losing the spot before they can get around to "aiming".

Didn't troops occasionally get up on one knee to spot in CMBN? They don't seem to do that very much in BS and I am now on the fifth Valley of Death reload trying various combinations of orders, arcs and movements to get a Javelin team (who I have positioned in a wide open field with a dangerous lack of concealment, out of desperation) to fire a damned missile!

 

Think I ran into a similar issue playing that small nighttime single mission (where you're tasked with taking out some anti-air with javilen teams).

 

A team would be on hunt, see the armour, then duck down and that was that. Tried hunting again, slow moving, armour arcs, couldn't seem to get them to shoot. Was a little frustrating.

 

 Maybe they need to be left alone for a while? Thinking about it now that's the only thing I didn't really try, was to just have them sit for a bunch of turns and see what happens.

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Screenshot of one of my 'blind' teams:

They see all of the advancing tanks if they so much as lift their heads but never actually fire their AT weapon because going prone breaks contact.

 

They are way to far away to fire that AT-4, but yes I agree it would be nice if infantry took a knee in terrain like that. As for saying its "straight forward to program" I highly doubt that,

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I mean the real AT systems, not the infantry one shots that might inconvenience a BTR-2 from 50 meters if you are very lucky.  The programming really is dead simple. the first if-then statement is the cover armor arc, the second is a list of AT weapons.  You are not asking the AI to determine if this is a good idea, that is the players job.  It is even close to perfect, but it is codeable.  

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A team would be on hunt, see the armour, then duck down and that was that. Tried hunting again, slow moving, armour arcs, couldn't seem to get them to shoot. Was a little frustrating.

 

I have had some luck using the Move command in this situation. They spot as well as with Hunt, but because the movement doesn't cancel when the enemy is spotted they will often stop and fire while standing rather than drop to the ground.

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They are way to far away to fire that AT-4

Yes, I know. Sorry, I should have made clear that they have a Javelin as well. In the screenshot the Javelin Operator (the guy without an AT-4) is choosing to arm himself with an M4 instead so the Jav is invisible... Probably makes perfect sense to him, given that he can't see any tanks.

I have had some luck using the Move command in this situation. They spot as well as with Hunt, but because the movement doesn't cancel when the enemy is spotted they will often stop and fire while standing rather than drop to the ground.

I've tried this but it hasn't worked, possibly because of the long aiming time required to use the Javelin. I've also tried leaving the team still, as suggested by jspec, but the tanks are "only" in view for 2-3 minutes and they didn't take a shot in that time. Edited by Tux
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  • 3 weeks later...

I return to this topic out of repeated frustration and ask (Disclaimer: I am no programmer)

How difficult is to code the AI so that (for example)

IF:

(1) terrain has low vegetation AND

(2) an infantry unit has been sitting prone on the terrain for X number of minutes (say 2 mins) with zero or 1 bar of suppression

THEN 

the member of the infantry unit equipped with the binoculars goes into kneeling stance

 

.....And if he spots anything then the rest of the unit does what is supposed to do

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I return to this topic out of repeated frustration and ask (Disclaimer: I am no programmer)

How difficult is to code the AI so that (for example)

IF:

(1) terrain has low vegetation AND

(2) an infantry unit has been sitting prone on the terrain for X number of minutes (say 2 mins) with zero or 1 bar of suppression

THEN 

the member of the infantry unit equipped with the binoculars goes into kneeling stance

 

.....And if he spots anything then the rest of the unit does what is supposed to do

 

Steve has stated many times - very difficult.  The biggest problem is side effects and unintended consequences.  There is considerable effort in testing to make sure nothing that was working broke and that is after the big effort to make the change.

 

Having said that I too would like to see this looked at because it can be frustrating.  In the spirit of playing the game as it is I have started attempting to not position soldiers in terrain like that - if I want them to be engaging the enemy.  I try to get them to a place where they are on the boundary of terrain so they don't do this.

 

This issue needs to ne solved !

In the next patch !

 

I cannot speak for Steve but I think I'll say "be prepared to be disappointed" not because I am trying to make a comment about the content of any patch but because those that demand stuff don't get it!  And no, I don't mean that people demanding stuff that has merit will never get it.  Suggestions and reported defects that have merit *will* get fixed.  But they get fixed when the time is right for the devs.  It can take a really long time.  Really long.  So by the very nature of demanding people it is never fast enough.  Therefore I say that demanding people don't get what the want :D

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Will This be fixed in the next update or at least improved?

Having the TacAI auto-kneel whenever they were on a tile with tall grass or higher vegetation was tried in beta awhile back. It was horrible and very unhealthy for AI. The only real solution would be a player-controlled stance toggle, but BFC is reluctant to go down that route.

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Having the TacAI auto-kneel whenever they were on a tile with tall grass or higher vegetation was tried in beta awhile back. It was horrible and very unhealthy for AI. The only real solution would be a player-controlled stance toggle, but BFC is reluctant to go down that route.

i really think this should be player controlled, i understand the point of them simulating being real soldiers but when it gets to the point of javelin teams not engaging something that is clearly inrange and in viewable distance, it gets very frustrating

Edited by newplayer
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Screenshot of one of my 'blind' teams:

CMBlackSea2015-02-2321-47-48-62.png

They see all of the advancing tanks if they so much as lift their heads but never actually fire their AT weapon because going prone breaks contact.

 

In my laymans eyes I don't blame the AT crew for staying prone. If I were in their shoes even if the Commander in Chief ordered me to shoot I would not. What I see is 6 tanks, plus who knows what else I can't see well within shooting distance of me. Even in the best case scenario where I could kill one of the tanks with my Javelin and say my other team member was Alvin York with an AT4, that would leave plenty of enemy tanks remaining to shoot back at me with nothing but cabbage to protect me.

 

Perhaps the AI self preservation code has kicked in ;)

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