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Question about observation / detection in this game.


exsonic01

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During the campaign and test, I found something strange.

 

At the same distance and same situation, regardless of the factions that I'm playing with, my tanks and vehicles hardly detect enemy from far, but enemy tanks and vehicles do and shoot to me. My units see something like (?) icons, but that's all. You can't shoot to the (?) icon. It seems my boys can't recognize the targets, so always allows the first shot to the enemy tanks and vehicles.

 

For example, my M1A2s always being observed by t90s first when I play as US, but my t90s can't even see the M1A2 when I play as Russians, under exactly same circumstances (it was plus minus 2km distance in the open). When I use Khrizantema and Kornet, even with the help of brm3k, my units just can't see the enemies in far distance. I expect at least brm3k and khrizan should detect/recognize the target and shoot from 4km, but what they're seeing is just bunch of ? icons. On the other hand, under the same conditions, when I play as US and send Abrams to the Khrizan-nest, exactly opposite thing happens. AI can detect and engage my tanks from +4km, but my Abrams can't see them, or just ? icons. It was Veteran difficulty. How AI can do that, while I can't, with the same units on the same map?

 

It seems that I have no idea about the game mechanics regarding detection and observation. Are there any hotkeys for 'use IR optics and thermal sensors' for vehicle? Or should I need to open up the hatch, and let commander observe from outside of turret for all tanks and vehicles?

 

ps) If my unit observed an enemy vehicle but looked as (?), how long should I need to wait in the same position to recognize and aim enemy? Or, if the enemy is shown as (?), is it impossible to recognize them unless you move your position closer or higher?

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Hehe  this game takes a fair amount of experience to get good at.  you need to really get down into the nitty gritty of the terrain and be careful and slow while trying to have a numbers advantage wherever you might be engaged.  I was just playing First Clash with my friend, he was telling me what he wanted his guys to do and I would give em some orders.  15 or so minutes in he decided I "wasn't doing it how he wanted" or whatever, and relieved me of direct command.  15 minutes later many question marks have been revealed but not too many enemy smoke stacks on the map but almost no Abrams left mission capable.   He controlled everything from too high up.  I think he's hooked though.  Ive gotten 4 friends to play CMBS so far and none of em wanted to at first but after their first time they are all hooked! :D

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During the campaign and test, I found something strange.

 

At the same distance and same situation, regardless of the factions that I'm playing with, my tanks and vehicles hardly detect enemy from far, but enemy tanks and vehicles do and shoot to me. My units see something like (?) icons, but that's all. You can't shoot to the (?) icon. It seems my boys can't recognize the targets, so always allows the first shot to the enemy tanks and vehicles.

Well I'll take a shot at answering but don't be offended :) My opening position is "observation bias".  Your are noticing the times you don't see the enemy and they see you. Other possibility is you are doing it wrong (but don't worry you can figure it out).  OK harsh reality / meanness over: what can you do about it? Here are some suggestions:

  1. Play some of your troubling scenarios in hot seat mode and see just what both sides are really seeing.
  2. Give your guys more time.  If they are on the move they will not spot as well.  Don't rush too much.
  3. Consider the terrain very carefully.  If your guys are in the field and the enemy is in the treeline in front of you - guess what they will see you faster than you will see them.  Don't forget to turn on trees from time to time to see what things really look like.
  4. Use UAVs.  Your guys will spot the real enemy units faster if they already have an idea of where they are.  If the UAV starts seeing ? or real contacts and the information gets through the C2 net both you, the order giver, and your soldiers will have a better idea of where the enemy is and they will spot them for real faster.  Note they still have to get into line of sight to actually spot them but the point is they will have a hint as to where to look.

 

when I play as US and send Abrams to the Khrizan-nest, exactly opposite thing happens. AI can detect and engage my tanks from +4km, but my Abrams can't see them, or just ? icons. It was Veteran difficulty. How AI can do that, while I can't, with the same units on the same map?

 

There is not difference between your soldiers or the AI's soldiers.  They behave under the same TacAI with all the same rules. There is no difference - just you and a small amount of luck.  You will be able to figure the game out - just keep at it.  But always recognized you will see ? more than you will see units no matter how good you get.

 

 

It seems that I have no idea about the game mechanics regarding detection and observation. Are there any hotkeys for 'use IR optics and thermal sensors' for vehicle? Or should I need to open up the hatch, and let commander observe from outside of turret for all tanks and vehicles?

No hot keys, your soldiers will do a good job at using their gear (well the Veteran ones will do better than the Green ones but that is to be expected).  Actually with the most modern vehicles you should *not* unbutton the commander.  Someone has posted a list a couple of times on which ones you are better to keep buttoned and which can benefit from being unbuttoned (but be careful not to get your TC on the casualty list doing this).

 

ps) If my unit observed an enemy vehicle but looked as (?), how long should I need to wait in the same position to recognize and aim enemy? Or, if the enemy is shown as (?), is it impossible to recognize them unless you move your position closer or higher?

Staying still and letting your guys observe can really help.  So can looking at the terrain and finding places where you can see better and places where you can be seen less are really good things to look for and utilize. 

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Great thanks Ian, few questions though.

 

Play some of your troubling scenarios in hot seat mode and see just what both sides are really seeing.

1) Hot seat mode can be played by myself? I didn't knew that. Is that turn-based only?

 

Give your guys more time.  If they are on the move they will not spot as well.  Don't rush too much.
Staying still and letting your guys observe can really help.  So can looking at the terrain and finding places where you can see better and places where you can be seen less are really good things to look for and utilize.

2) Even though I moved as slow or hunt, is that still less efficient for recon / observing than stopped? Is the only 'stay still' gives you best detection ability?

 

Use UAVs.  Your guys will spot the real enemy units faster if they already have an idea of where they are.  If the UAV starts seeing ? or real contacts and the information gets through the C2 net both you, the order giver, and your soldiers will have a better idea of where the enemy is and they will spot them for real faster.  Note they still have to get into line of sight to actually spot them but the point is they will have a hint as to where to look.

3) In this case, is UAV operator should be a tank / vehicle crew? Or other recon / observe unit like recon team, sniper team, bfist, and armored knight? Because, I can't see the command-chain-line (red line among units) between recon (or armored knight) and tank / vehicles. Are data link and communications automatically performed for all units in the map regardless of red command-chain-line? 

 

No hot keys, your soldiers will do a good job at using their gear (well the Veteran ones will do better than the Green ones but that is to be expected).  Actually with the most modern vehicles you should *not* unbutton the commander.  Someone has posted a list a couple of times on which ones you are better to keep buttoned and which can benefit from being unbuttoned (but be careful not to get your TC on the casualty list doing this).

4) It is a noob question but, is 'unbottoned' means the commander opened the hatch and comes out? Or 'buttoned' means that? ( It seems unbutton means the opened hatch, right? )

 

Thank you

 

Best,

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Great thanks Ian, few questions though.

 

1) Hot seat mode can be played by myself? I didn't knew that. Is that turn-based only?

Yes, I do it often when I am testing something. Yes, it is turn based only.

 

2) Even though I moved as slow or hunt, is that still less efficient for recon / observing than stopped? Is the only 'stay still' gives you best detection ability?

Yes, any moving is less efficient than being still. Note I am not saying that you cannot spot stuff when you are on the move I am just saying that doing recon spending time just observing is a good thing.

 

3) In this case, is UAV operator should be a tank / vehicle crew? Or other recon / observe unit like recon team, sniper team, bfist, and armored knight? Because, I can't see the command-chain-line (red line among units) between recon (or armored knight) and tank / vehicles. Are data link and communications automatically performed for all units in the map regardless of red command-chain-line?

Use one of the FOs or for the Russians an air controller. As an example a US platoon has a fire support team and a Raven as part of it (or perhaps the Raven is at the company level I forget) but the point is if you use the platoon fire support team from 1 Platoon to launch a UAV mission once the UAV spots something the fire support team will get a solid spot on it. What you will notice is that pretty quickly the rest of 1 platoon will have ? where the fire support team sees an ememey tank. If you wait a little longer the Company CO will see the ?. If you wait some more members of 2 platoon and 3 platoon will see the ?. After a while the battalion commander will have passed on the information to the tanks in D company. etc.

 

4) It is a noob question but, is 'unbottoned' means the commander opened the hatch and comes out? Or 'buttoned' means that? ( It seems unbutton means the opened hatch, right? )

Unbuttoned means the vehicles commander and on some vehicles someone else will have their head out of their hatch. Buttoned means everyone is inside with the hatches "buttoned" up (closed).

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"Yes, any moving is less efficient than being still. Note I am not saying that you cannot spot stuff when you are on the move I am just saying that doing recon spending time just observing is a good thing."

 

I was going to say something like this but since you said it first I'll add a caveat.  You spot better staying still, UNLESS its infantry that are lying down where they cant see much, then moving them brings their heads up where they are much easier to see but also have more chance to see.  But ideally for spotting you get them to stay put at places they can see important stuff while in their stationary poses.    
 

 

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Staying still and letting your guys observe can really help.

 

Probably, but that's not the whole story. If the contest is between spotting and being spotted, sitting still can really delay how quickly you are spotted. Or to put it another way, moving—especially rapid movement—really draws attention. When I lived in the country I did some experiments of spotting moving versus stationary targets in various conditions. Some of the targets were people, some were vehicles of various types. People in camouflage in various kinds of cover were generally spotted four to six times as far away if they were moving compared to being still. Vehicles were spotted up to seventeen times as far away if in motion if there was a long enough sight line to them. All spotting was done with just the human eye, but binoculars were used for some of the comparisons. I don't know how thermal imaging would effect those ratios.

 

Michael

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Hehe  this game takes a fair amount of experience to get good at.  you need to really get down into the nitty gritty of the terrain and be careful and slow while trying to have a numbers advantage wherever you might be engaged.  I was just playing First Clash with my friend, he was telling me what he wanted his guys to do and I would give em some orders.  15 or so minutes in he decided I "wasn't doing it how he wanted" or whatever, and relieved me of direct command.  15 minutes later many question marks have been revealed but not too many enemy smoke stacks on the map but almost no Abrams left mission capable.   He controlled everything from too high up.  I think he's hooked though.  Ive gotten 4 friends to play CMBS so far and none of em wanted to at first but after their first time they are all hooked! :D

What kind of games do your friends normally play?  Because this forum is full of people that think no-one except dyed-in-the-wool wargamers will play it.

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What kind of games do your friends normally play?  Because this forum is full of people that think no-one except dyed-in-the-wool wargamers will play it.

 

 Regular games :)  lol.  They are not wargamers  at all.  Im thinking maybe its the high level of firepower ;)  the firepower is addictive.  I never have enough in other games ;) 

 

My question is, if I stay still and spotted (?) in 500meters , how many turns do I need to identify the objective in treeline?

Besides waiting you could also move other guys nearby where they might have a better view or shift the spotter position to another one near by what also has good concealment and maybe better view.  Moving into position with slow would be safest.  Or just moving another guy to the same spot, maybe a guy with better optics, like the themal imager of a missile launcher. 

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Hehe  this game takes a fair amount of experience to get good at.  you need to really get down into the nitty gritty of the terrain and be careful and slow while trying to have a numbers advantage wherever you might be engaged.  I was just playing First Clash with my friend, he was telling me what he wanted his guys to do and I would give em some orders.  15 or so minutes in he decided I "wasn't doing it how he wanted" or whatever, and relieved me of direct command.  15 minutes later many question marks have been revealed but not too many enemy smoke stacks on the map but almost no Abrams left mission capable.   He controlled everything from too high up.  I think he's hooked though.  Ive gotten 4 friends to play CMBS so far and none of em wanted to at first but after their first time they are all hooked! :D

First Clash is a great scenario to get the long range spotting & detection experience. I'm in my very first playing of it right now and have yet to lose an M1 (knocking on wood).

 

I've been wondering about the spotting & detection thing myself because like the OP I'm wondering how most of the time the first time one of my tanks finds out about the enemy is after he gets hit by something. With that being said, I'm still trying to figure out how in First Clash my M1's spotted two Khrizan at 2500m+ and killed both of them before the Khrizans could even launch. Maybe the Khrizans were just moving into position and got spotted first.

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...I'm still trying to figure out how in First Clash my M1's spotted two Khrizan at 2500m+ and killed both of them before the Khrizans could even launch. Maybe the Khrizans were just moving into position and got spotted first.

Or maybe the ATGM carriers had rubbish crews, or your general spotting abilities across the board were helping your M1s (other eyes-on, I mean).
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Yes of course but it greatly helps in spotting first

 

But I'm not sure exactly how it would. Maybe units who have "heard it on the grapevine" are more inclined to focus their attention (read: shorten their spotting cycles) in the direction of the reported units. But SFAIK BFC has not reported any design alteration along those lines.

 

Michael

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From what i understand.. If you have a contact being communicated to a unit when that unit gets in LOS of the "spotted by someone else" contact you get a spotting bonus.. They know where to look.. In red thunder my infantry spots tanks then when I bring m'y own tanks to engage it, I send the infantry unit that spotted the enemy tank near my tank to share the info. My tank now has a possible contact showing when i select it and using a hunt command I bring it in LOS of the contact and it usually spots it much quicker and engages it

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