Uh so has Debaltseve fallen?

[Battlefront.com]

I think these two posts are the best this thread was able to produce so far.

I dare to add that every month of sanctions strenghtens Putin a little and strenghtens the Russian 'hawks' even more at the same time.

No, it backs them further into the corner they put themselves in and we haven't seen the end of this yet. Historical point of comparison... Hitler had more strength and control over his personal power after the July assassination plot failed, despite the war going worse for Germany than ever. I'm pretty sure you know how that ended up, yes?

 

Putin was never so popular in Russia as he is now and 80% of Russians declares USA enemy.

That's not surprising given the lack of freedom of information, assembly, and political discussion within Russia. In fact, I'd be shocked if it were anything but that. I mean, Russia isn't spending $300+ Billion a year on its state controlled media to give Russians an alternative view that is critical to Russian state policy, right?

 

Regardless of the propaganda on both sides everyone pretty much knows by now USA and US money was involved on Ukraine during the coup. A

I've spent a couple thousand hours studying this conflict and the politics. I am painfully aware of the Russian claims, but I've examined the evidence and it is baloney (as we Americans say when we're polite). It is, as with almost every single other charge coming from Moscow about Ukraine, a tiny bit of truth and a ton of distortion.

 

I don't think any sactions are going to break them. Especially when they all think their leader is doing the right thing. In fact I think the only effect sanctions are going to bring is putting DEFCON at 2. Or worse.

This is, of course, the counter argument to sanctions. However, nobody with any sense about the situation would think that Russia would not be acting the way it is if sanctions are lifted. Russia has always sought to control Ukraine, it always will until there is a significant change in Russian politics. Therefore, arguing that sanctions are making the situation worse doesn't make much sense unless you define "worse" as making things tougher for Russia to execute its policies.

Tell you what. Let's come back to your comments 12 months from now and reevaluate them.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Everyone knows Azov are mostly Neo-Nazis. Them and Aidar.

Actually, I've seen some pretty careful examinations of the two formations and this is not the case. They are mostly hardcore nationalists, which includes neo-Nazis. Put another way, the politics of the soldiers overall is very right of center. But neo-Nazi is a very specific type of far right belief system and it shouldn't be used as a general term. Otherwise it loses its meaning.

 

BTW if seen enough evidence of Neo-Nazis among the Separatists as well.

This is also true, though again many are simply far right extremists. Either way it is a very uncomfortable topic for anybody with pro-Russian views. Because the official Russian state message is that local Russian loving Ukrainians are fighting against the hatred coming from a Fascist Kiev government that has fielded a Nazi army of "punishers". It gets kinda confusing if they then have to admit that some of the key leaders and many fighters of the DPR/LPR are themselves both Russian and Fascists. It's so confusing that perhaps it might cause some doubt that what they see on Russian media isn't entirely accurate.

BTW, Russian mainstream media seen in the West has largely abandoned the "Fascist" charge in the past few months. Even they understand that it makes them look silly.

 

Also, it seems Azov was turned into a regiment lately, whats that all about?

Like Donbas, it's attracted more recruits over the year and has not had significant losses for many months. This means they've had the opportunity to train new recruits without a need to fill in for casualties. The obvious thing to do is to expand the field force rather than have than turn them away.

Steve

[H1nd]

Thing with powerful symbols like swastikas etc  is that people might be using them just because they are powerful. It's very very stupid nevertheless but I think we can all concur that there is never a short supply of stupid people.

[Anon052]

Just curious if this picture was ever proven to be legit. For sure there are a lot of fakes floating around out there. Not that I'm saying there aren't any neo-Nazis fighting for either Ukraine or Russia in Ukraine, because there are plenty on both sides. There's also monarchists, Orthodox religious fanatics, and even "Allah Akbar" heard every once and a while.

Steve

This picture is photoshoped. In the original picture there is no swastika. The updated photo was used by russian and "novorussian" propaganda sources. At the moment I'm at work but will try to find the original picture and post it if i find it again. This makes it pretty clear what the posters agenda is.

 

P.S. I couldn't find the foto I seemed to remember.But I found a blogarticle about it stating the flag is fake: http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html

This blog is written by an opensource analyst and is highly informative about the war. The photoshopping of nazi-flags into ukrainian pictures is modus operandi to support the russian narrative of a fashist junta in Kiew. I have seen this happen a lot. Yes there are some nazis and right wing groups in ukraine but the russian media does blow it completly out of proportion.

 

 

By the way in this video a "separatist" commander talks about the battle of Debaltseve and that is wasnot a sucess because of immense losses. Its in russian but it clearly supports Steves analyse of the situation.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs1pdoGx-SI#t=20

Edited March 11, 2015 by Anon052

[Rokko]

Thing with powerful symbols like swastikas etc  is that people might be using them just because they are powerful. It's very very stupid nevertheless but I think we can all concur that there is never a short supply of stupid people.

Some of their imagery is just too specific. I mean you could argue the swastika is an ancient symbol and not necessarily Nazi imagery, but the SS Deaths head (seen it twice in that video) and the black sun (on the regimental emblem!) are have no other/earlier origin or anything like that.

[Kraft]

Let me invade your country and then blame the people for supporting the far right more...

[H1nd]

Some of their imagery is just too specific. I mean you could argue the swastika is an ancient symbol and not necessarily Nazi imagery, but the SS Deaths head (seen it twice in that video) and the black sun (on the regimental emblem!) are have no other/earlier origin or anything like that.

 

Ofc many of them are the "real deal" but honestly I dont think you got my point. Regardless of any ancient meaning or use (like swastika) or more recent historical ideological payload (death's head and other more specific ss symbols) people use them and are enthralled by them for whole variety of reasons with ideology being only one of them. Let's take a completely different example: Metal bands. We have black, metal, death metal, extreme metal etc etc. They all share common symbolism that is to some degree easily associated with satanism and anarchism yet the powerful symbols in this case are often just a trademark that these bands use. Sure there are plenty of metal bands (and fans) with true satanist ideology behind them but to seriously consider that just because these people use these symbols they actually believe in any ideology or idea associated with these symbols is not wise. Powerful symbols are used because they are powerful. Because they are best at signalling "we are different! we are part of our group! We don't care what you think about us etc etc etc". It's stupid but it's also very efficient at creating groups, bonding these people together and separating them from majority.

Edited March 11, 2015 by H1nd

[Rokko]

I generally agree with those points, although I haven't seen apolitical people using these extremely specific Nazi symbols for the sake of provocation. Satanists (and I am talking LaVeyian satanists here) often admire the Nazis and their symbols for their brutality and general radicalism, but you can't really shock anyone by using a black sun or a SS deaths head, because I bet most people wouldn't even recognize them as Nazi symbols.

 

BTW, for me Neo-Nazi ideology would be defined as a combination of a white-supremacist believe (today mostly some sort of "pan-Aryanism"), some sort of Blood and Soil ideology and a general believe in a strong dictatorial rule by some leader figure (oh yeah and of course anti-semitism). Plus a fascination with historical Nazis and their imagery. To me that seems like a reasonably strict definition I would bet you'd find that combination in most of the Azov members considering their faible for that awfully specific set of NS imagery.  

 

Edit: Getting OT here again, will cease that from now on

Edited March 11, 2015 by Rokko

[danzig5]

Something that I find interesting about so called Ukrainian Neo-Nazi formations, IE Aidar Battalion and Azov Battalion is that they are supported by prominent Jewish figures. For instance, Right sector spokesman Boryslav Bereza who has been elected to the Rada is Jewish. And Azov is bank-rolled by Igor Kolomoisky a Jewish billionaire. As such I find it hard to believe that either group are disciples of Hitler, although some of the soldiers do seem to be.

 

Back on topic, Steve a new video has been posted featuring seperatist commander Mozgovoy calling Debaltseve unsuccessful due to seperatist casualties. It appears your assessment was most accurate.

 

Sadly no ENG subtitles, yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs1pdoGx-SI

Edited March 11, 2015 by danzig5

[Rokko]

Sorry for OT again, but which photo do you mean?

this one?

 

Edited March 11, 2015 by Rokko

[Battlefront.com]

Sorry for OT again, but which photo do you mean?

this one?

 

Yup, and my bad. I forgot that one is real. And whadda know about Western biased media... do a search and you'll turn up dozens of articles about this in all the major US and British news agencies, including Fox. Every one of them condemning it. I even found this one, of many, criticizing the handling of the affair after:

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/02/marines-nazi-ss-flag-afghanistan

Yup, Western media is all about lying and covering things up.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Sorry, I had to delete a previous post of mine. I was logged into a different user account to troubleshoot something and my logout/in as myself didn't work! Which is odd because in another window I'm logged in as myself. Cache thing?

Anyway, here's my post reposted! So it's a little out of order. Sorry about that!

 

This picture is photoshoped. In the original picture there is no swastika.

I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you! Next you'll tell me that the picture Russians sent around of US troops in Iraq with a SS flag was photoshopped! I mean, how could it be since everybody knows that the US military is nothing but a big stormtrooper factory!

Seriously, I've not seen the specific picture in question before, but as soon as I saw it I suspected it was faked. I've sure seen a lot of "Novorussian" creativity to discredit everybody but themselves. At least I've seen no Novorussian pictures of tortured people in the cellars of places like Slavyansk. Oh wait, I have and they were real. My bad

 

By the way in this video a "separatist" commander talks about the battle of Debaltseve and that is wasnot a sucess because of immense losses. Its in russian but it clearly supports Steves analyse of the situation.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs1pdoGx-SI#t=20

Then it must have been produced by the SBU Because that's where every single piece of information that reflects poorly on Novorussia or Russia comes from.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

And the last one reposted:

Thing with powerful symbols like swastikas etc  is that people might be using them just because they are powerful. It's very very stupid nevertheless but I think we can all concur that there is never a short supply of stupid people.

Here in the US when there's Swastikas painted on things in public it often turns out to be just dumb kids doing something that they know will get attention and aggravate adults. They aren't neo-Nazis, they aren't even particularly anti-semetic. They are just young, perhaps not too bright, but mostly looking to get attention.

 

 

Something that I find interesting about so called Ukrainian Neo-Nazi formations, IE Aidar Battalion and Azov Battalion is that they are supported by prominent Jewish figures. For instance, Right sector spokesman Boryslav Bereza who has been elected to the Rada is Jewish. And Azov is bank-rolled by Igor Kolomoisky a Jewish billionaire. As such I find it hard to believe that either group are disciples of Hitler, although some of the soldiers do seem to be.

I always chuckle when someone mentions that this supposed Nazi formation is funded by a Jewish oligarch and openly supported by Jewish community leaders. Or that some of their members are Jewish. The reason I chuckle is because the lack of well reasoned counter response is so predictable.

OK, now that we've had the usual fun of someone throwing a red herring into this discussion to distract it, let's move on now that it's been exposed as such.

Steve

[Zveroboy1]

Am I the only one who is a bit bothered by the fact that when Azov is mentioned, instead of getting something like : "yes it is a bit of a disgrace to have these guys fighting on our side, maybe they do more harm than good to the Ukrainian cause etc...", we get "they're not really true neo nazis" and " the separatists have some fishy guys too"?

 

I mean come on, it is like the Ukrainians are getting a blank check and it is taboo to criticize them.

 

Concerning the sanctions, I don't think anyone is suggesting that we shouldn't sanction Russia, but rather not to get your hopes up too much about the results of said sanctions.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

I mean come on, it is like the Ukrainians are getting a blank check and it is taboo to criticize them.

 

 

I think it's a bit like when Germans point out that Americans shot some POWs too in World War Two.  Yeah.  It's a bad thing.  However compared to the other bad things going on from the claimant party, it tends to get ignored or remains as a footnote.

 

So to that end that there's some wackjobs in the Ukrainian forces certainly is a thing, but the number of airliners they've shot down is pretty negligible, and all and all outside of giving something for Russia to point at and squeal like thoe guys from Invasion of the Body Snatchers, they're a footnote to the fact we have a lot of badmojo speaking Russian and not officially existing going on.  

[Battlefront.com]

I think it's a bit like when Germans point out that Americans shot some POWs too in World War Two.  Yeah.  It's a bad thing.  However compared to the other bad things going on from the claimant party, it tends to get ignored or remains as a footnote.

Exactly. When someone brings up a bad thing out of context and tries to take a moral high ground, glass house, holier than thou position my first instinct is to correct the position rather than discuss the topic itself.

If's like one of the guys I've debated pointing out back last Winter that there were radical right members of the Ukrainian government. The only reason he brought them up was to reinforce the Russian propaganda message that Kiev was now in the hands of neo-Nazis that would go jackboot marching across freedom loving Europeans. I felt immediately obligated to remind him that most EU/NATO countries have far more radical rightwing representation in their governments and more documented examples of extremist activities than Ukraine has. Why did I do that? Because a bad premise based on faulty logic resulting from selective facts needs to be corrected before there can be a meaningful discussion.

 

So to that end that there's some wackjobs in the Ukrainian forces certainly is a thing, but the number of airliners they've shot down is pretty negligible, and all and all outside of giving something for Russia to point at and squeal like thoe guys from Invasion of the Body Snatchers, they're a footnote to the fact we have a lot of badmojo speaking Russian and not officially existing going on.

There you go, injecting more perspective again. Here, I'll add to it.

Question for those who have a problem with Azov and Aydar... exactly how many of these armed neo-Nazi, baby crucifying, murderous, "punisher" battalions existed before Russia invaded Ukraine? C'mon... you must know the answer! Oh, all right, here it is. ZERO. OK, maybe you can get the next question. What is the reason these units exist now? C'mon, you have to know the answer to this one! Sheesh, OK, I'll answer it. Because when Russian invaded it became clear that Yanucovych had done an excellent job making sure the regular Army would be no threat to such an invasion. Tell you what, maybe you can get the next one. Why, even after all these months, are these units still part of the defense of Ukraine? This one is a little tougher, so I'll give you a hint. It has a lot to do with all those Russian forces that keep coming over the border. Dang, that is the answer. Here's a replacement question. What are the chances these battalions would exist and would be armed if Russia had not invaded? You're right, it's a trick question because we'll never know since Russian invaded less than a week after Yanukovych fled and therefore Ukraine wasn't given the opportunity.

My point is if you want to have feelings of revulsion, anger, disgust, etc. you should focus it on the root cause and not the byproduct.

Sorry for the heavy sarcasm. It helps keep me sane.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Back on topic, Steve a new video has been posted featuring seperatist commander Mozgovoy calling Debaltseve unsuccessful due to seperatist casualties. It appears your assessment was most accurate.

 

Sadly no ENG subtitles, yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs1pdoGx-SI

Ah, I just put some bits of information together. I forgot who Mozgovoi (Mozgovoy) is. Now that I've been reminded, it is interesting that less than 48 hours after he made this statement (on video and in writing) someone tried to blow up his car. And, as he said, "it wasn't the Ukrainians":

http://thesaker.is/alexei-mozgovois-appeal-about-assassination-attempt-on-him/

The fun thing about the above blog is it is a reminder that the Novorussian zealots have been consistently talking about the direct aid from Russia and its actions to control the fighters in Ukraine. That's been true since the Spring of 2014. For some reason this gets ignored by the folks who wish to continue believing and advancing the lie that Russia isn't involved directly in every way possible.

One interesting aspect to look at here is that there's two types of weapons/supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia. There's the type that is being supplied by the Russian government to its own forces and those who are obeying their commands. Then there's the type that's being funneled from private sources to the Novorussian militias. Russia has actually made several attempts to crack down on this at the border as well as taken direct military action against various Novorussian militia leaders. At one point last year Putin even made a public appeal to have them stop stealing the "Humanitarian Aid" that was being sent to Russian and Russian controlled forces (Putin didn't mention the latter part, of course!).

Russia's special forces actions earlier this year to get rid of the most uncooperative and least combat worthy Russian separatist militias is the stuff Tom Clancy would have used for a new novel. You know, if he weren't dead.

Steve

[Zveroboy1]

Yes that's fair enough.

 

Some of the comments in these threads are probably ill intentioned with the not so subtle aim of discrediting the Ukrainians but lumping together all the people who point out the flaws on the Ukrainian side is not only unfair and silly but also counter productive.

 

The way I see it, if you acknowledge it when the Ukrainians suffer a defeat, even minor, (it really felt like pulling one of Steve's teeth out to have him finally admit Debaltseve was one), or acknowledge when they harbour not so respectable elements in their ranks, to put it mildly, instead of simply dismissing these claims, IT ONLY MAKES YOUR CASE STRONGER when you criticize the other side, not weaker, because you'd appear a lot more objective and impartial this way.

 

Sorry but I feel pretty strongly about the neo-nazi thing. With the rise of right wing extremism in Europe with pegida, ukip, national front etc, it is a threat that feels a lot closer to home and worrying for me than the distant fighting in Ukraine.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Zveroboy1

[Michael Emrys]

[semi-off topic observation]

 

This business in Ukraine really seems to have gotten under Steve's saddle. I think he has posted more since the Black Sea forum opened than he has in the previous ten years!

 

[/semi-off topic observation]

 

 

Michael

[Saferight]

Azov battalion clearly shows its allegiance:

Definitely neo nazis on both sides of the conflict in ukraine

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025074095

Edited March 12, 2015 by Saferight

[Battlefront.com]

Some of the comments in these threads are probably ill intentioned with the not so subtle aim of discrediting the Ukrainians but lumping together all the people who point out the flaws on the Ukrainian side is not only unfair and silly but also counter productive.

Correct. Which is why you saw me, and others, readily admitting that Ukraine has a far-right politics problem. Which is kinda like saying "welcome to the club" because so does every other European nation. Including Russia. In fact, Russia's government itself is far right. Not just influenced by, like France or Hungary, but actually satisfying most definitions of Fascist.

 

The way I see it, if you acknowledge it when the Ukrainians suffer a defeat, even minor, (it really felt like pulling one of Steve's teeth out to have him finally admit Debaltseve was one), or acknowledge when they harbour not so respectable elements in their ranks, to put it mildly, instead of simply dismissing these claims, IT ONLY MAKES YOUR CASE STRONGER when you criticize the other side, not weaker, because you'd appear a lot more objective and impartial this way.

I agree, which is why I said from the start that Debaltseve was a loss for Ukraine and that Ukraine has a far right problem. Go back and re-read my posts and you'll see that very clearly. My argument was against Debaltseve being a "humiliating defeat" (it absolutely was not) and that Azov/Aydar are an anomaly unique to Ukraine. I believe I have made sufficient arguments to support those positions. Positions which I think are of more relevance and importance than the superficial and factually weak arguments that I was addressing.

 

Sorry but I feel pretty strongly about the neo-nazi thing. With the rise of right wing extremism in Europe with pegida, ukip, national front etc, it is a threat that feels a lot closer to home and worrying for me than the distant fighting in Ukraine.

Full agreement. The US and Canada have no shortage of problems as well. But I'll give you a short history lesson:

The far right has ALWAYS existed in politics. In fact, one can argue that even though far right politics are on the rise in many places, they are still at levels far below those of the 1950s and especially earlier. Moderate governance (which includes periods of left and right leaning) has been a relatively new thing. Like you, I hope it continues.

Steve

[Erik Springelkamp]

In fact, Russia's government itself is far right. Not just influenced by, like France or Hungary, but actually satisfying most definitions of Fascist.

 

 

France? Government? Current?

[Badwolf66]

I don't know if this is relevant but according to Wikipedia Ukraine is recommissioning some of its old T-72s so perhaps they'll be added into the game later on for the Ukrainians?

[Battlefront.com]

France? Government? Current?

 

Front National. No, it is not the government in power, but it is a significant political power within French politics. It has also received massive amounts of cash from Russia. Which is a whole different off topic conversation we could have but won't

I don't know if this is relevant but according to Wikipedia Ukraine is recommissioning some of its old T-72s so perhaps they'll be added into the game later on for the Ukrainians?

Perhaps!

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Just an FYI, there are reports that Mozgovoi is now dead. Shot by a sniper. Separatist media is disputing this, but so far there's no proof that he's alive as far as I know.

There are also reports that the last of the Cossacks and the LPR have come to an agreement which allows them to stay in Ukraine as part of the LPR chain of command, but not have to fight at the front. The compromise is the result of repeated failures to get the Cossacks out of Ukraine or to be a productive fighting force at the front. There have been several attempts, including armed conflicts, to eject the Cossacks because they are pretty much there to run criminal enterprises even to the detriment of LPR/DPR. But every time LPR claims they have beaten them, it's turned out to be false. One of the significant resources they are said to control is fuel storage.

Steve