TeAcH Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Just a question to the pros here. Would it be more realistic if the actual effect of a tank hit is only reported (text wise) to the tanks owner/player. That is, the enemy player wouldnt truly know what the hit did (no text report shown to him). It would mean watching the shell bounce off or *PANG* into the tank. That might mean I'm not sure what my shot did and what happended and I may have to either continue to target it after it is knocked out or watch to see if it appears damaged. Just a thought. TeAcH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just a question to the pros here. Would it be more realistic if the actual effect of a tank hit is only reported (text wise) to the tanks owner/player. That is, the enemy player wouldnt truly know what the hit did (no text report shown to him). It would mean watching the shell bounce off or *PANG* into the tank. That might mean I'm not sure what my shot did and what happended and I may have to either continue to target it after it is knocked out or watch to see if it appears damaged.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is a very good idea. Some kills would be obvious (sherman bonfires), but otherwise you remain unsure. It would also allow for a tactic the Germans pulled a few times... playing dead. Imagine the joy of having that Tiger you just knocked out come back to life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MERC Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 If you believe your getting to much information then hit [shift + D], this will turn the detailed text hit labels off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 It's already something I've mentioned in private and it's on the list as far as I know. I was pretty adamant that this shouldn't happen after it gave a PBEM opponent FAR more info than he should have had. Summary: Worry about it no longer and TeAcH, good point ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonM Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Won't the cannon being pointed down (as currently implemented in the beta/demo) be an indication that the tank is knocked out? von Manstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted November 27, 1999 Author Share Posted November 27, 1999 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Well what happened to me was my Tiger's main gun was damaged.. He saw a detailed hit label about it and so knew the Tiger couldn't kill his Hellcats. End result he had more info than he should have had. It's not a problem if an enemy tank is knocked out BUT if it is just damaged then you may get some extra (too much) info ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Fionn, Is that me you're talking about, knowing of the main gun damage to your tank? I agree that I shouldn't know for sure, although I would've suspected it due to the long time without the Tiger firing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted November 27, 1999 Author Share Posted November 27, 1999 That's my point Rick. I think we all agree that one would have to play the wait and see game, like you in that game. Makes for a better game I say TeAcH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Rick, yes it is. Actually IF you hadn't been told my main gun was knocked out all you would have known was that my Tiger had pulled back deeper into the scattered trees and dissapeared from your LOS. End result... BOTH Hellcats you had on that flank would have had to remain in position in case it poked it's nose out again a couple of minutes later. Just by still being alive (and you not knowing it couldn't shoot) my Tiger would have tied down a large number of your forces. I brought it up a few weeks ago and I think it's on the list. Can't be 100% sure but I think it is. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Well, I think it really should be on the list. Also, if BTS adds more "shell hitting armour" sounds, then I think it will be even better. Because as it stands right now, you know if you got a penetration just by hearing the sound. Which brings me to another point. I think that the sounds of the enemy forces should be available to you, the player, only as to the extent that your troops in the game can realistically hear the sounds. (has this been discussed before? I don't recall - but sound issues have been neglected on this board, for the most part). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 BDW, I think this is on the list as well (or actually might already be in). You are supposed to hear sounds only of spotted enemy units. For the gun KO issue - hm, gameplaywise I would also prefer less info for the enemy. However, what if a hit simply blows off the gun of the Tiger? Or splits it in half etc.? Wouldn't the enemy know for sure that the main gun of the enemy tank is gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 If it wasn't for the message all I would've known was that there seemed to be a pause in the firing of the Tiger and it backed further into the trees and I lost LOS to it. I do feel for the most part that is all I should've known. However, Moon brought up some interesting points regarding ways that it might be obvious that the main gun is damaged. Anyhow, the point is more than likely I had too much info. Fionn, It's kind of interesting that some of what I did to your Tiger was hidden from me, ie. the crew casualty, but I knew about the gun. I found out about the casualty by checking all your units in the view map thing, after the game was over. I like that feature, kind of neat to remove FOW after it's all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 Hi guys, For what it's worth, I am very satisfied with the way damage reports are handled in the demo. If indeed it is being changed, then I hope the change only involves e-mail games, and not solitare play. Thanks. ------------------ Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 Come to think of it, didn't both German and US subs under prolonged depth charge attack sometimes eject oil along with miscellaneous debris to give their attackers the mistaken idea that the attack had be successful? Perhaps a tank could do something similar: say, set fire to stuff lashed to the deck to give the impression of a brew up? Does anyone recall any WWII reports of supposedly destroyed tanks coming back to life? ------------------ Airborne Combat Engineer Troop Leader (1966-1968) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 Good idea MOS, but, won't the light of the fire just attract more enemy gunfire to that unit if it is discovered to be a farce, let alone the friendly troops iluminated nearby! Also, being in a tank, I wouldn't be too happy driving that thing around, let alone sitting in it with a bonfire heating the metal can up. Plus, with the Sherman's already dubious engine and gas supply, I am sure it needs no other help in buring in flames. Plus, it would take a while to set up the debris and light the fire (unless before the battle you doused your tank in gas, hopping for a deflection shot to spark and light the flame, not enough to blow up the tank though...) One thing I would like to see, is, even for a knocked out vehicle, if you are beyond a certain distance you should just see the basic picutre. If you see a Sherman, from say, 400 meters, unless it has brewed up, it should look the same. When you get close enough, you should be able to see if it is knocked out or not. It should appear to be in fully working order if far enough away. There should be the automatic targeter also, as, if you don't believe it to be destroyed, neither should your troops. However, if you get close enough (not something like 3 meters, more like 2-300 or whatever the average person can determine accurately) with a unit with a LOS on this vehicle it can see if it is destroyed or not. Indeed, some damage is more noticible than others, and this should be taken into account. But, even a knocked out Sherman can still cause the Germans to think twice about assaulting a hill or something. You can also pretend that perfectly good vehicles are in fact destroyed. These are just my random thoughts however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted December 21, 1999 Share Posted December 21, 1999 Believe it or not, something similar is in already. I'm not sure if it was in the beta demo or not, but tanks will now often keep firing at enemy tanks a few times even after they have been disabled - until they brew up. They won't do that, usually, when other moving targets are visible, but yep - sometimes you'll curse because your TC decided to shoot at the knocked out one more time while the working Tiger comes up on the other side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not here Posted December 21, 1999 Share Posted December 21, 1999 Thought provoking topic. This got me started thinking about dummy tanks- what a cool thing to model! There were certainly many occasions where dummy tanks and cannon were used to deceive the enemy in WWII. In prepared positions, actual vehicle hulks were used for the purpose, often with logs or pipe for cannon. If they were effective for that, actual KO'd vehicles would certainly be confusing on the battlefield, unless blazing. There were also instances on the Eastern Front of abandoned tanks, whose weapons were still serviceable, being taken over and converted to pillboxes by infantry. Generally I agree that we get too much information on the damage we cause enemy vehicles now. On the main gun KO issue, I would add that a main gun can be wasted without visible indications- and this may have been more common than catastrophic and visible damage. It wouldn't take much of a dimple or bend in the tube (or hairline fracture) to render the gun unserviceable, but you couldn't tell by looking from a range of 50m. Even the crew couldn't always tell, 'til they tried to fire the next round... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 21, 1999 Share Posted December 21, 1999 Dummy tanks were more utilised in a strategic manner than as a battalion-level weapon. Therefore they won't be going in (I'm sure but haven't asked) and neither should they. For the Russian front the use of abandoned tanks for OPs etc was a bit more commonplace so some extra options will probably be necessary then. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted December 21, 1999 Share Posted December 21, 1999 I have a humourous story... One of my friends told me this about his Grandfather during WWII. He was in the British Army in the Engineer Corps, special duty or something. He was a part of a group assigned to create these dummy articles. They created dummies of Tanks, Airplanes, Bases, and yes, even Battleships. In North Africa they had just finished creating a dummy vessel of a warship, somewhere in Egypt or Malta (presumably at Alexandrea). Anyway, after it was finished, an attack was heading towards them, and, they put a smoke discharge in the dummy's funnel to make it look like a ship trying to get underway. Unfortunatly someone put in a coloured smoke and this weird green (can't remember exact colour, but this will do) smoke was pouring out of this funnel. The Germans/Italians bombed it anyway. He said that they were pretty sure that they assumed that the coloured smoke was done just to make it look like a dummy vessel, instead of just one big screwup. I have nothing really to back this up other than one of my friends word, but, it struck me as a funny tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Major Posted December 21, 1999 Share Posted December 21, 1999 I understand the Iraqis were pretty successful at making alive tanks look knocked out. Hey Teach, sorry you haven't heard from me -- I had to move and my computer hasn't been unpacked yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted December 21, 1999 Share Posted December 21, 1999 I read an account of the battle for central Berlin (May 1945) where the last, die-hard Nazi troops were holed up in the big government buildings and were defending a canal. Many times the Russians tried to advance - with infantry and tanks - but the Germans were too well concealed in the purpose-built bunkers in the buildings and they were pushed back on each occasion. The Russians finally got over the bridge by putting a pot of burning oil onto the front deck of a tank and then driving it over the canal bridge. Each of the German AT crews thought that the other had knocked it out and it was able to get into cover on the other side of the canal and begin to undermine the defences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmeek Posted December 21, 1999 Share Posted December 21, 1999 Regarding how this thread originated and to confirm Moon's point, I was playing LD against the AI when one of my Hellcats hit the Tiger and I received the same "gun damaged" message. Because I am so smart, I instructed my Hellcats to concentrate on other targets and let the Tiger stew in its own juices. The Hellcat commanders must have thought that my idea of leaving a living Tiger on the field was nuts, though, b/c they just kept pumping fire into the Tiger and ignored my clever strategy. I spent the next 3 turns watching my two remaining Hellcats suffer from a serious case of tigeritis as they continued to try and kill the thing while the Tiger slowly tried to back away from the threat (always keeping his front to the hellcats) until a lucky shot finally brewed it up. It was fun to watch b/c it showed some pretty neat A/I for both sides and gave me a good idea how the best orders are sometimes chucked out the window when self preservation is an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted December 24, 1999 Share Posted December 24, 1999 I remember reading from somewhere that sometimes Soviet tankers would place a smoke canister on their engine decks and that they would play dead by firing the canister on convenient occasion. I do not know whether this was a widespread practice and how the whole thing was arranged in practice. I have also a story about dummy vehicles. In Summer '43 Finnish aerial reconnaisance pilots noticed that Soviets had built a new airfield in Eastern Karelia. They made a few photo runs and the pictures showed that there were about a squadron of planes there in quite dense formation and poorly camouflaged. This seemed to be so stupid, that suspicions arose. A infantry long-range patrol was sent to look up the airfield and the report was that all planes were only wooden dummies. This would have ended this story if a couple of Finnish Blenheim pilots would not have had an idea. They manufactured some wooden bombs and one evening they did a bombing run and bombed the wooden planes with wooden bombs. -Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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