Use of "Can Trigger" Orders?

[astano]

Hi all,

 

I can't seem to get "Can Trigger" orders to work, specifically the following example:

 

AI Group 2 is supposed to exit its setup zone and secure a farm complex, then wait to advance until AI Group 3 appears on map as reinforcements and begin their advance on a different farm complex.  Group 3's second order is set to "Can Trigger," and Group 2's second order has the Group 3, Order 2 trigger listed as "Wait For," and then they have order three, like so: 

• Group 2:  Setup (exit between 0:00 and 0:30), Order 2 (wait for Group 3, Order 2, exit between X and Y), Order 3, Order 4, etc.
• Group 3:  Setup (exit between 0:00 and 1:00), Order 2 (Can Trigger, exit between 0:00 and 1:00), Order 3, Order 4, etc.

But Group 2 just isn't waiting for Group 3 - rather, whatever time is set as the exit after for Group 2's third order is when they leave to execute order 3.  I have tried setting the earliest exit time for Group 2 at 0:00, 5:00 (the earliest Group 3 can appear on map), and 1:00:00, and in each instance that is when Group 2 exits for their third order regardless of what Group 3 is doing or even if they're on map (that is, if Group 2's exit after time is 0:00, Group 2 immediately moves from its second to its third order, regardless of the fact that Group 3, who they are supposed to be waiting on, isn't even on map; same for 5:00.  If I set the exit after for Group 2 to 1:00:00, Group 2 sits in its second position until 1:00:00, even if Group 3 has come on map and moved several orders beyond their "Can Trigger" second order).

 

I tried switching the triggered order for Group 2 from the second order to the third order as well (that is, Setup (exit between 0:00 and 0:30), Order 2 (exit between 0:00 and 1:30:00), Order 3 (wait for Group 3, Order 2, exit between X and Y), etc.), but this still resulted in Group 2 just blitzing through its plan.

 

I know with objective triggers I've had success by setting an exit after time of 0:00 and an exit before time of the end of the scenario, with the trigger as the "wait for" condition, but this doesn't seem to be how an orders trigger works.  I assume there's an error on my part here somewhere but I've tried just about every variation on the plan I can think of with no change in outcome.  The manual doesn't really discuss these triggers; I also tried searching the forums and had no luck.  I looked through some of the stock scenarios and couldn't find an example of an Orders trigger being used either.

 

Any tips would be appreciated.

[Pelican Pal]

Not sure if I can help you a whole bunch. however.

 

If you have an exit time and trigger whichever one happens first will cause the unit to move on. So if the timer ends before group 3 arrives then group 2 will still move because they got an order to go. The AI groups don't care what gives them the go ahead it just whatever happens first.

 

You might want to use a friendly objective trigger and see if that works.

 

I've not had this issue before and it looks like you are covering all of your bases.

 

Edit:

 

If you send me a download link I will take a look at it from my end and see if I can figure out what is happening.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Pelican Pal

[A Canadian Cat]

Sounds like @PelicanPal is on the right track I am sure others would have a look at it to if you can provide a link.

[Heirloom_Tomato]

I think from my limited experience that setting the order to can trigger without actually having a "painted" trigger on the map nothing will happen.  If I understand you correctly, you want group two to start their move once group three arrives on map.  Since the reinforcements always arrive in the same location all you will need to do is paint a friendly trigger objective on the map right where Group 3 will arrive.  Once they show up, they will trip the trigger releasing group 2 to move forward.

[astano]

Thanks for the replies guys, I really appreciate it.  At this point the question's really more academic than anything else, as I know a terrain trigger can do what I want, but I'd still like to figure it out if possible.

 

@Pelican Pal - The exit before time is (and I think always has been) set to 1:22:00, two minutes after the end of the scenario.  I double-checked that that was the case and ran the scenario again but it doesn't seem to make a difference.  I tried using a terrain trigger instead with all other parameters left the same, so it seems to just be the order trigger that's the issue.

 

Download link for the scenario so far:  https://www.dropbox.com/s/8gmktv1lh3ch7xy/wrong%20turn%20at%20albuquerque%20ai%201.btt?dl=0

 

I don't currently have any terrain triggers on the map.  I know I could get more-or-less this effect with them but I was hopping to do simultaneous advances, rather than leapfrogging (although again I could achieve the desired effect with Heirloom's technique).  I was always under the impression that a trigger order doesn't require terrain triggers, is this correct?  It's definitely the impression I have from the manual, and I know that the opposite isn't true (i.e., for terrain triggers you just need the objective set regardless of the can or cannot trigger status of any orders).  If not, at least I have a pretty quick answer to my problem. 

[Pelican Pal]

I'll take a look at it tomorrow evening and see if I can't figure it out.

[Heirloom_Tomato]

I believe I have figured out the problem. I think the problem was all in the timing of the orders you had issued to the various groups.  Some of the timing for the orders were set to end before the reinforcements were on the map.  For example groups 2 was to wait for group 3, order 2 before they advanced. The order timeframe for group 3 order 2 was set to end before they actually arrived on the map. So group 2 then moved ahead to follow their next order as the timer for group 3 had run out.  The variable arrival time for each reinforcement group made it even harder to figure out the exact timing. I have sent the modified file back to you and I hope it works the way you had intended.

[astano]

I've done some testing and fiddling with this since my last post and it looks like Heirloom is mostly correct - the problem is specifically related to the fact that the triggering group comes on as reinforcements.
 
First I confirmed that you can successfully use an open-ended time with an orders trigger just like you can with a terrain trigger (that is, exit between 0:00 and [end of scenario], wait for [trigger]) - that on its own appears to work, if both the triggering and triggered groups start on the map.

 

It doesn't appear to matter what you do with the timing if both groups start on map - for example, if you make the triggering order the third order, scheduled to begin at 1:00, but at 1:00 the triggering group hasn't yet reached the triggering order, the triggered group will not advance.  This is not the case if the triggering group is not on the map at 1:00 - then the triggered group will advance.
 
An orders trigger also works under the circumstances Heirloom discovered - that is, where the reinforcements arrive on the map and have no orders that are supposed to be started before they arrive on the map, and the triggered group has a specific timeline.  It appears though that even if the triggering group doesn't have any orders scheduled during the time it is still off-map, giving the triggered group an open ended order (e.g. exit between 0:00 and [scenario end]) causes the triggered group to advance whether or not the triggering group is even on map yet.
 
Semi-detailed semi-scientific test results:

 

Test 1: Group 3 on map, Group 2 with open-ended time: PASS

Test 2: Group 3 reinforcements, no Group 3 orders before Group 3 on map, Group 2 open-ended time: FAIL
Test 3: Group 3 reinforcements, Group 3 orders timed before Group 3 on map, Group 2 closed time: FAIL
Test 4: Group 3 reinforcements, Group 3 orders timed before Group 3 on map, Group 2 open-ended time: FAIL
Test 5: Group 3 reinforcements, no Group 3 orders before Group 3 on map, Group 2 closed time: PASS

 

I have no idea why that's the case, and to be frank I'm not terribly confident in those results or my methodology.  But it looks like if you want to use orders from a group that does not start on the map as a trigger, the timing of their orders and the orders of the group being triggered need to be timed almost as you would if you were using time as the only trigger.  This seems to take a lot of the utility out of orders triggers, but it is what it is.

[Pete Wenman]

Astano - I'm pretty sure you can use reinforcements groups for order triggers.

 

If you don't mind the spoiler crack open Brutal in the editor. 

 

Red Plan 1 group 4, order 4 is triggered by group 5, and they are a reinforcement unit.

 

I'm pretty sure it works as I intended, but you might want to check it yourself

 

P

[Heirloom_Tomato]

Pete, I took a look and am more confused now than before. I sent you a pm as I do not want to post as much spoiler info as will be needed to explain why I am confused.

[Heirloom_Tomato]

Thanks to Pete Wenman for explaining it to me in a pm where I was wrong.

 

The mistake I was making was thinking the trigger would be tripped once the "tripping" group had completed the trigger order.  This is wrong.  The trigger will be tripped and the both groups will begin to move at the start of the triggering order.

 

Is it possible astano that, like me, you have unintentionally chosen the wrong order to be the trigger and need to choose one order later to achieve the desired result?

[astano]

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

@Heirloom - to be honest I couldn't say for certain that that wasn't part of the problem.  However, I'm quite sure now that that's not the case, and at any rate, I don't think that would explain why, if the triggering group comes on as reinforcements, the can trigger order is apparently triggered before they have even appeared, but if they start on map the timing doesn't seem to matter.  Either there's an issue with that, or some other variable in my testing that I'm not thinking of produced that result.

 

At this point, for the scenario I'm working on the AI needs a pretty substantial rework anyways as the groups aren't working out, so I'll probably be switching to terrain triggers regardless.  If I do any more with the orders triggers I'll post what I find here, and of course I'd love to hear from anyone else about them.