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A question about the T-90‘s armor protection was found!


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Re: "Good T-90s"

 

Sort of mixed emotions.  On one hand you've basically placed the tank in a position/posture that's beyond reasonable expectations.  Also tank seemed to light off once the lower side was struck, and 20 MM from that close of a range isn't super-unreasonable.

 

Which is to say I feel a bit like it's this:



Basically we've placed a M2 in the most optimal position to knockout a tank.  The .50 cal is not a reasonable anti-tank weapon because in all real life positioning, it's going to end poorly, but that doesn't mean that again, in optimal, not reality based positions, it shouldn't have some effect on parts of the T-90's armor array.

 

I'm not bored enough to try this, but have we run similar tests with Ukrainian vehicles?  Abrams is a bit of a wash given it's better armored to begin with, but there's at least anecdotal evidence that IRL a lucky shot did penetrate, but some sort of T-90 glitch might be in the works if T-64BVs are shrugging off .50 cal in a similar posture.

 

Re: Screenshot

 

Have to say, it looks about right in the screenshot for what close quarters .50 cal fire will do to a tank.  Wounded driver is a bit out there, but the rest is at least conceivable given a machine gun firing from close range into the side like that.  

 

The T-90 is just not that well armored away from its ERA arrays.  The autocannon upper side hits raise my eyebrows a little, but lower hull hits are going to be a problem.  

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Hmm, I didn't know the armor was only 20mm anywhere but where the torsion bars run along the bottom of the vehicle. 

 

I know this diagram

948ce4158703.jpg

 

Which Is quite old, being a original t-64 but the 20mm area is very low on the body, no real critical systems behind it besides the suspension and the rest of the hull armor is thick enough. Soviet I mean Federalist tank hulls haven't weakened much since the cold war, so I'm not convinced the results of these tests represent reality . I repeated this test with the .50 at 100m on the second floor firing down at the tank and it had no trouble repeating the results including the ammo explosion. 

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To answer any outstanding questions I have used this setup to film the following video presentation.

http://youtu.be/dJYVhHBaTOQ
 

From left to right are the T-64bv, the BM Bulat, the BM Oplot, the T-72b3, the T-90a, and the T-90AM. The BV, Bulat, and T-90AM all suffer partial or full penetration of the upper side hull once. The T-90a seems to allow more shells in than it keeps out, lower hull especially. Bug is not confined to upper hull armor, lower hull is much to thin as well.

Edited by danzig5
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I just had 6 .50 cal American sniper teams hammer the side of a T-90A. Smashed most of the internal subsystems, killed the driver of the tank, and blew it apart in 1 minute, 22 seconds.

 

http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/706273787328364331/0F1CF860F953FD01652303F4DE21EA0B8497B4FA/

 

Haha, i would agree then that there is an issue.

 

Subsystems yes.

 

Driver, not a chance.

Edited by Stagler
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It also seems weird where the hit spots are all exactly in the middle of the side.  Is a .50 cal really that accurate?  Why is there so little shot spread?

 

I have been running a bunch of tests and it seems the more modern a Russian tank, the more likely to be penetrated by smaller rounds.  I have found the BMP3M more survivable than a T-90 from the side...by a little bit only.

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It also seems weird where the hit spots are all exactly in the middle of the side. Is a .50 cal really that accurate? Why is there so little shot spread?

it's 100m....

I don't know where the line between upper side hull and lower side hull is for hit reporting. It is not necessarily where there is a change in armor. I've also run into quite a few bugs with upper side hull / lower side hull hit reports. However, the hit decals tell a fairly clear story: .50 cal SLAP appears to be penetrating where there should be approx 60-80mm plate behind skirts (still looking for a good source on T-90A side armor). Obviously a bug.

Edited by akd
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I don't know where the line between upper side hull and lower side hull is for hit reporting. It is not necessarily where there is a change in armor. I've also run into quite a few bugs with upper side hull / lower side hull hit reports. However, the hit decals tell a fairly clear story: .50 cal SLAP appears to be penetrating where there should be approx 60-80mm plate behind skirts (still looking for a good source on T-90A side armor). Obviously a bug. 

 

Looking at the performance across the board, almost seems reasonable there's something wrong with heavy machine guns/autocannons vs tanks.  Stands to reason T-90A might just be most susceptible that issue because of armor values vs T-90 is broken itself.  

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T-90A hull sides must be considered weaker than T-72B3 as KPVT at approx 100m will fire on the T-90A, but not on T-72B3.  However, although it will fire freely on the T-90A, it can only penetrate "lower side hull."  Lower side hull location in game appears to be higher than the actual thinner (20mm sloped plate) area on T-XX series, which is behind the road wheels.

 

14.5mm BS-41 penetration:

100 m / 90o / 40 mm

300 m / 90o / 35 mm

 

This also suggests that the .50 SLAP penetration is set too high in game.  My guess is we have combination of penetrations stats set to too high and armor values set too low.

 

.50 cal M903 SLAP penetration:

100 meters: ?

500 meters: 1.34 in (34 mm)
1,200 meters: 0.91 in (23 mm)

 

.50 cal Mk211 penetration (I know M107 in game is assigned this.  I don't know what ammo vehicles use.)

11 mm Armour in 45° at 1000 m

 

30mm 3UBR8 APDS penetration:

@0°

66 mm at muzzle

 

@60°
100m - 45mm
200m - 40mm
500m - 33mm
1000m - 28mm

Edited by akd
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Don't come out of hiding often here, after reading these messages, it remineded me of a situation the other evening which was good for a M1 but bad for the T90.  While backing out of a bad situation with my damaged M1 through the clearing smoke I see a couple 90's down the road.  In desparation I fire off a round and not only take out the first 90 but the one behind as well.  Rather saved the day.  Penetration was through frontal armor but could not tell if turrent or main body of the 90's.

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I'am sorry for offtopic but how did you get "red" T-64, Bulat and Oplot? 

Is there are way to give sides arbitary troops and/or vehicles?

Yes, in the scenario editor on the Data page switch the Force vs Force setting from Blue vs Red (standard) to Red vs Red or Blue vs Blue and that will allow out add whatever you like. Then switch back to Blue vs Red (standard) when you are done playing musical equipment. See page 81 of the manual.

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