Having a ton of pretty grevious spotting issues lately

[SnakeTheFox]

I know this is a topic that has been done to death several times over, but lately I've been having more and more serious issues with spotting of all kinds: AFV to AFV, infantry to infantry, AFV to infantry, vice versa and everything in-between.

In the most recent case I'm going to document, a German SPAA halftrack drove across an empty field, to within 10m of an unbuttoned BA-64B, several infantry squads in a treeline 50m from it, and even a "hunting" sniper unit that was moving directly at it maybe 15m away, and wasn't spotted by any of them until pulling up broadside of the BA-64B and firing at it. And even then, it was only spotted by a single one of a half dozen units staring at it; a command squad in the treeline 50m away.

Now, the conditions of this fight weren't bad enough to warrant this kind of thing, but they weren't ideal either, so I'll list them:

*Battle was a QB against AI
*Realtime command
*Veteran difficulty
*Time of day was dusk
*Condition was hazy
*Unit experience/condition/leadership etc. was average/normal/baseline across the board (for my units, at least; I let the AI pick its own forces)
*None of the involved units were actively engaged in combat or suppressed in any way

And now two screenshots immediately after the SPAA was first spotted. On them, the red line indicates the direction the SPAA was headed as it approached my units, based on the fact that A: I spotted him 20 minutes earlier when he fired on my ground attack plane, and so knew his origin point, and B: I watched the "unknown vehicle" general area icon as it made its way down, which is why I sent the sniper squad on a hunt mission in its direction, to verify what it was.

This is the BA-64B, which was unbuttoned before it was fragged, so the commander/gunner would've had his head fully out of the turret:
http://i.imgur.com/xbiRq5z.jpg

This is the sniper squad I had sent on a hunt order out into the field. They only hit the deck after the BA-64B exploded from the SPAA fire, but did not spot the SPAA after walking towards it (and it driving full speed towards them) for 10~ seconds, and didn't even spot it even after it had fired:
http://i.imgur.com/buJzTG6.jpg

I'm running some texture mods, but I can assure you the area the SPAA was driving over was a flat (if slightly overgrown) grassy field. Also, I'd offer a savegame, but the most recent save prior to it melting my BA-64B was made an entire 15 minutes prior, and it would be too difficult for me to recreate these exact conditions again.

Anyway, it died shortly after firing from the one squad that did spot it, 50m away in the treeline. But this whole time it was only spotted by that one squad, and even then that was only after firing, not the entire 10-15 seconds it spent booking it across an open field.

I know the game works on a "spotting check" system where periodical computations are made to see if a unit should be spotting another unit, but is there anything that can be done on the user end to make these checks more frequent or thorough? I've heard that the turn-based mode runs with a higher frequency of spotting checks, is this true?

Edited January 30, 2015 by SnakeTheFox

[Wicky]

From the clock it looks like 43 minutes or so into a game starting at dusk = Night.  Plus the hazy conditions will limit overall visual range.

[Kieme(ITA)]

Yes, hazy and dusk condition and you get a situation in which line of sight of units is extremely reduced, much like a dark night. Also, as Wicky noted, the time must have been 21-22 at least, PM. That means the dusk turned into dark.

 

I just ran a test and a similar vehicle I was commanding spotted a fixed BA-64 only when it was less than 10m away..

 

Consider that condition, dusk+21-22 hours+hazy cond. as very hard for LOS.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[SnakeTheFox]

Oh, come on now. Even being night, I don't see how a half-tracked SPAA vehicle can drive directly across an open field, park between 10 and 50m from a half dozen units (and so 30+ pairs of eyeballs) who are staring directly at it, and broadside an unbuttoned scout car from 10m away, and still only be spotted by one of those 6 units after firing. I can see better than that during a nighttime blizzard with one eye closed and one eye squinted.

Although, being night, perhaps the bug that I am experiencing is that night hinders unit visibility a hugely unrealistically high amount. But I cannot logically accept that anything I just experienced was the intended, realistic gameplay functionality.

Edited January 30, 2015 by SnakeTheFox

[Kieme(ITA)]

You might want to come back in few years when the game will reach another level of development then.

[fivefivesix]

I have to agree with the first few comments - in the middle of the night, in hazy conditions. There are zero light sources, with excepting of the burning wreck. Its not like these vehicles have headlights on. 

 

The game lighting is usually brighter than I expect actual conditions, to aid in actually being able to see as a commander. I would bet that all 30 eyes had a strong sound / vehicle contact coming from the SPAA but no one could actually visualize it enough to engage it. 

 

I just think about how it must appear from the ground. No light, looking across a dark field with even darker forest / trees on the horizon behind the vehicle. Sure, you could probably see something moving, maybe even men moving around on the vehicle, but probably not enough to even know what it is. 

[SnakeTheFox]

You might want to come back in few years when the game will reach another level of development then.

 

I don't see how that's constructive. Combat Mission, or indeed any long running game series, wouldn't be where it is today without people diligently discussing areas they perceive to be lacking functionality.

 

I have to agree with the first few comments - in the middle of the night, in hazy conditions. There are zero light sources, with excepting of the burning wreck. Its not like these vehicles have headlights on. 

 

The game lighting is usually brighter than I expect actual conditions, to aid in actually being able to see as a commander. I would bet that all 30 eyes had a strong sound / vehicle contact coming from the SPAA but no one could actually visualize it enough to engage it. 

 

I just think about how it must appear from the ground. No light, looking across a dark field with even darker forest / trees on the horizon behind the vehicle. Sure, you could probably see something moving, maybe even men moving around on the vehicle, but probably not enough to even know what it is. 

 

I just want to make a small clarification, and point out that it's not the middle of the night. The battle started at dusk, so at best it would be 20 minutes into nightfall. The horizon was still pink (e.g. sunset/twilight) for me, and you can see that in the screenshots. An issue with graphical representations of night, perhaps, but regardless.

I've been outside at night during varying conditions of visibility many of which are far, far worse than haze (as I'm sure most others have, of course), and have never been so completely blind that I wouldn't notice an 11 ton tracked AFV screaming across an open field, heading directly for me, so close I could hit it with a rock, and furthermore still not notice it after it had fired a burst of cannon fire into a nearby vehicle. I just simply can't rationalize this idea that anyone, especially 20+ trained and alert soldiers, could be so blind as to not notice something like that.

And none of this even touches on the fact that clearly the system is functioning sporadically, because the SPAA made a B-line for the armored car and broadsided it. How can it see so well that it can move 150m straight at an unbuttoned, stationary scout vehicle which is facing it, and then engage it from less than 10m, all the while the stationary scout vehicle (and stationary and hunting infantry) can't see it?

So to be clear, I am not debating that night and haze impedes vision, but I am contesting that it could not possibly impede it so drastically as to offer a scenario as ludicrous as this.

Edited January 30, 2015 by SnakeTheFox

[Baneman]

... I can see better than that during a nighttime blizzard with one eye closed and one eye squinted.

.

 

 

 

 ....

I've been outside at night during varying conditions of visibility many of which are far, far worse than haze (as I'm sure most others have, of course), and have never been so completely blind that I wouldn't notice an 11 ton tracked AFV screaming across an open field, heading directly for me, so close I could hit it with a rock. So I simply can't rationalize this idea that anyone, especially 20+ trained and alert soldiers, could be so blind as to not notice something like that.....

 

But you live in an age of light pollution.

In the countryside during WWII with every city and/or building blacked out, it would get pretty dark.

[SnakeTheFox]

But you live in an age of light pollution.

In the countryside during WWII with every city and/or building blacked out, it would get pretty dark.

 

For most of my life I've lived 5 miles outside of a rural town of around 2000 people, many miles from any major city. Light pollution affects almost everyone, of course, but I know what dark dark is, and it doesn't explain what's happening here.

Edited January 30, 2015 by SnakeTheFox

[sburke]

Dark doesn't explain why you can't see something? And it isn't just dark but hazy as well. In other words you have conditions where visibility absolutely sucks and your complaint is you can't see. Ummm I don't think a new engine, new glasses or even turning on the lights in your gaming room are gonna help.

[Kieme(ITA)]

In my opinion the game engine is forcing into much reduced visual distance capability for all units for simulation reasons. Given also a random factor that will most probably be there I'd say the game engine is doing a good job in lowering visual distance capability of units given the scenario setting and time. 

 

In conclusion I see no bugs or problems here but a precise game design feature, that is aimed to simulate the conditions.

 

We could discuss all day long on what our own opinions are, and if a vehicle could be spotted at 100m of distance we would have a forum complain about it being not realistic enough, but all of this doesn't change the fact that the game design is there for the above reason and it is doing its job.

 

Given the actual development of the game I belive this is fine with what the engine rendering capabilities are.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[Rinaldi]

Your observations remind me of a complaint I've had on one of my videos viz. spotting. I suppose the person was just venting, but I asked him to elaborate:

 

 

 

I recently played the German Campaign..  many times Regular Soviet crews buttoned up.. will get first shots off.. accurate as hell to, one of my Veteran crews never even fired back for an entire minute, but the soviet tank buttoned.. got off 4 or so rounds with no response from the unbuttoned German crew who initially targeted the soviet tank to begin with.. so the German tank loses its main gun, optics within 3 hits at 1700m.  

Now I like the battlefield [sic] games.. but I sometimes wonder if there are hidden moddifiers and such.  German tanks in treeline spotted first by moving Russian armor some buttoned.. although there is an exchange of fire. by no means were the Russian forces "surprised or ambush by tanks 20m in a treeline  

Reverse Russian tanks in treeline.. German tanks facing them can not spot them... but the soviet tanks spot. Buttoned up.. the German tanks and fire on all of them..

I tested this scenario.. many times.. and there is either no difference in spotting with "so called Optics" or Russians can see just as well buttoned up.. and in treelines with no hindrance at all. to either 45 degrees on either side.

 

I can't help but suspect that his story is a bit in the realm of fantasy; as I've never heard of such wonkiness. I've never had trouble spotting when I hunt forward with unbuttoned crews surrounded by infantry in daytime conditions. For the record I'm generally a ****ty scout as well; I follow the maxim that the only good recce is a dead one and have still never encountered his, or yours, frustrations.

 

You're being given good advice here:

 

 

 

in the middle of the night, in hazy conditions. There are zero light sources, with excepting of the burning wreck. Its not like these vehicles have headlights on.

 

and here:

 

 

 

From the clock it looks like 43 minutes or so into a game starting at dusk = Night.  Plus the hazy conditions will limit overall visual range.

 

 

and you, as is your right, choose to say the game's spotting system is wonky. When you get told to perhaps wait for an update to the capabilities to the engine, you tell him its not constructive. Well now, you've largely ignored all the constructive advice! 

 

What was your rate of advance? I can't tell if those red lines are target lines or assault lines; assaults in the game logic happen at the "Fast" or "Quick" speed and leave very little in the way of spotting. At night you might need to spend 2-3 minutes in game time spotting to actually get a spot; or a recon by fire to garner a response; in such visibility you're going to suffer at least a half dozen close range ambushes...

Edited January 30, 2015 by Rinaldi

[SnakeTheFox]

snip

 

Hearing "wait for an update", at least from a non-developer, is about as non-constructive at it gets. What does it refute, establish, clarify, or otherwise contribute to a discussion on an allegedly flawed gameplay mechanic or bug, other than to demonstrate someone doesn't have an answer but wants to be confrontational anyway?

I've noticed a trend on this forum, whereupon issues in the simulation are pointed out, but certain people will righteously defend it as the intended functionality even it it's absolutely ridiculous to presume that it is. Case being, a hazy sunset simply does not mean an 11 ton AFV can hurtle across an open field in front of 30 men and an unbuttoned scout car, then fire an autocannon 20m from their eyes, and maintain sheer invisibly all throughout. It also does nothing to explain (nor has anyone tried, unsurprisingly) why the halftrack had no problem spotting my own unit, even though they were stationary and he was moving, and they were more numerous and occupying a wide array of vantage points focusing on him.

Also, I wasn't advancing, the halftrack was. My infantry were stationary, my unbuttoned scout car was stationary, and a single pair of snipers were "hunting" in his exact direction. The halftrack was hurtling at high speed across an open field in front of them, and the red line marks his general path towards the scout car/infantry (to clarify that he cleared easily 100-150 meters of ground without being spotted, and didn't fly out of the treeline to his immediate left, or something).

Edited January 30, 2015 by SnakeTheFox

[Vanir Ausf B]

The CM spotting model does occasionally produce highly improbable results. The fact that units spot in intervals rather than continuously (for performance reasons), combined with a large amount of random variability make it inevitable. Add in poor light and/or bad weather and a WTF moment is a matter of when not if.

 

Which is also why you can't put much stock in any single event. I was testing tank spotting recently. Daytime, perfect weather. On one test run 9 of the 10 tanks spotted their adversary within 2 turns. One tank took almost 10 turns. My guess is that this is a 1 in 10 type event. It still sucks when it happens to you, especially in a PBEM, but that's the fickle finger of CM fate.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[A Canadian Cat]

I've noticed a trend on this forum, whereupon issues in the simulation are pointed out, but certain people will righteously defend it as the intended functionality even it it's absolutely ridiculous to presume that it is. Case being, a hazy sunset simply does not mean an 11 ton AFV can hurtle across an open field in front of 30 men and an unbuttoned scout car, then fire an autocannon 20m from their eyes, and maintain sheer invisibly all throughout.

Well I don't see that trend. I see post after post of people who just don't listen to perfectly reasonable explanations and discussions. Now having said that your story of spotting gone wrong might actually be a real problem. What ???!?!??! yeah I said it. Given the conditions I can accept the driving but not being spotted and we know there are limitations with the game engine when enemy units are in close proximity to each other so I am OK with that. But as soon as the AAA vehicle opens up - and remains unspotted. That seems bad. I strongly suspect that it is a limitation issue due to close proximity.

It also does nothing to explain (nor has anyone tried, unsurprisingly) why the halftrack had no problem spotting my own unit, even though they were stationary and he was moving, and they were more numerous and occupying a wide array of vantage points focusing on him.

See now you are back to not listening (although I admit this has not been mentioned on this thread but it has been over and over and over...). The biggest problem people have is that spotting means "I have seen and registered the presence of an enemy unit" it does *NOT* mean "I could see an enemy unit there". This is an important difference. The game is not presenting you with the reality before your eyes and letting you figure out if you can see X or Y. The game is presenting you a view where you can see X or Y because one of your units on the ground have seen X or Y.

[Rinaldi]

I don't know what to tell you man; I'll say the same thing to Juergen when he pointed out his spotting issues; **** happens. If it happens consistently, its either time to re-evaluate your tactics or send a letter bomb to Steve.

[GAZ NZ]

It would be expected a sound contact would come up. Should have really.

If your guys are not shooting or in combat why could they not hear something.

Sounds of shooting and ya ears ringing could easily hide the HTs noise.

Hazy conditons and dusk dont help the spotting but there is the sound contact aspect.

Then the HT spots your units which is a bit odd.

Did your troops throw a bombfire - sing some songs.

What was your troops skill level?

Was the platoon HQ with them?

[slysniper]

Time for a chill pill, maybe the spotting did not make sence for you as to how you expect it to be. And maybe the game is not perfect.

 

But no one is stopping you from changing the settings, and the game does allow that. SO change it, to a lighter condition and your units will spot just like you expect them to. So stop dishing the game

 

Anyone who has been in the outdoors enough should know that on certain nights and conditions, yes you cannot see hardly anything, and yes your eyes really do play tricks on you when it is that dark.  (Now maybe the game settings dont make sence for that condition, but then again maybe it does.)

 

Your basically playing at night and I know from learning the hard way (hazy really affects the visuals in the game more than you miight think.)

 

My question is, How often in real life has any of you seen it hazy after dark unless you live in air polluted city???

Edited January 30, 2015 by slysniper

[A co]

Also you can not assume that the enemy vehicle spotted your BA-64 from a distance and intentionally drove up to it to shoot it. The AI doesn't have the ability to 'stalk' its targets like that. Probably it made its move for its own rigid AI reasons, and spotted the BA-64 only when it got close. 

That said, I don't blame you for being surprised and frustrated at the situation.

For my part, I just accept these unfortunate incidents as gaps in the alertness, judgement, and reporting by my troops. After all, in the real world they'd have to see a contact well enough to make sure it wasn't friendly anyway, before engaging it, and we don't usually complain about the lack of that limitation in the game, or about the absence of ground to ground friendly fire incidents. 

The consolation is that the enemy suffers as much from fog of war as you do. 

[A Canadian Cat]

Anyone who has been in the outdoors enough should know that on certain nights and conditions, yes you cannot see hardly anything, and yes your eyes really do play tricks on you when it is that dark.

 

+1

 

That said, I don't blame you for being surprised and frustrated at the situation.

True it can be frustrating. We all feel it.

For my part, I just accept these unfortunate incidents as gaps in the alertness, judgement, and reporting by my troops. After all, in the real world they'd have to see a contact well enough to make sure it wasn't friendly anyway, before engaging it

This is huge. This game is not a "you are responsible for making the perfect decision to get out of a puzzle" game. This is game of tactics - assess the situation and create the best plan possible and guide your soldiers to execute it. Then expect the unexpected and roll with it.

[Blazing 88's]

For my part, I just accept these unfortunate incidents as gaps in the alertness, judgement, and reporting by my troops. After all, in the real world they'd have to see a contact well enough to make sure it wasn't friendly anyway, before engaging it, and we don't usually complain about the lack of that limitation in the game, or about the absence of ground to ground friendly fire incidents. 

The consolation is that the enemy suffers as much from fog of war as you do. 

 

 ...This is huge. This game is not a "you are responsible for making the perfect decision to get out of a puzzle" game. This is game of tactics - assess the situation and create the best plan possible and guide your soldiers to execute it. Then expect the unexpected and roll with it.

 

Bravo...

 

Saved me a bunch of typing.

[c3k]

Spotting...

A lot of good info already posted.

Units do not spot continuously. They only spot at certain intervals.

Vehicles have had their spotting abilities reduced.

A fast moving vehicle may be able to exploit these game engine characteristics for several dozen meters.

Yes, it can seem broken. I ascribe thses situations to oft-described stories of units infiltrating enemy lines at night through guise and guile or just ineptitude.

I wonder how many times it would happen if you replayrd it repeatedly. When in the next turn was it spotted?

Edited January 31, 2015 by c3k

[LemuelG]

Looks to me like the scouts are located in an obscuring fold in the ground, with long grass and stuff. The field is far from flat, it's wavier than a waterbed - the German side is lower than the forest side, with a bowl and a bump in between with some other humps and dips in evidence - the angle your SS gives doesn't impart enough information about topography or LOS to definitively cry foul. Your positioning could have been poor, giving your guys a 5m long reverse-slope for all we know.

 

Need more data for accurate analysis. Can you draw a LOS from those guys?

[whitehot78]

I wanted to drop my 2 cents on this since I've been affected by something similar lately. In a CMBN night battle, with the British vs Germans, I knew the rough location of a tiger tank. Sent a 76mm Sherman to flank the german heavy. So I make the brit tank follow a route among some buildings, then turn a corner - the TIger is about 40-50 meters away. give the sherman a tiny armor arc contact - nothing comes out. Make him go closer, nothing. In fact, at a point the Sherman literally bumps into the Tiger, I make the crew unbutton, rotate turret etc but nothing for a long while.

 

So basically I managed to spot the Tiger by moving some infantry in adjacent buildings to spot it, caught it rotating its turret to shoot my tank, but thankfully the british 76mm blasts it (the gun muzzle so close to the enemy steel that reminded me of those situations in which somebody gets a pistol pointed to the dome).

 

Anyway, also got in a couple other situations which made me think that night spotting has some issues to iron out.

[womble]

It's night time. You're peering out through possibly fogged, dusty glass vision blocks amongst buildings and you expect tankers to be able to identify a stationary Tiger? There's actually an anecdote about a sherman doing precisely what yours did in the days after D-Day, told by one of the crew, possibly even the TC, that I've seen on TV. That sherman wasn't a Firefly, and didn't stand and fight, leaving with a molten groove in the top of its turret and getting behind cover before the followup round could kill it. All sounds properly realistic to me. Might not happen that way every time, but if it did, I wouldn't worry much.