Just when you thought it was safe to come to the forum....or, Mines!

[Bud Backer]

Yet another information gathering thread from..well..me.

Mines. Scary Devils in the real world, while conventions on their use (or their banning) have been signed. In our carefree and happy days of WWII, they were not so proscribed.

How do you use them? I know how to buy them and deploy them. I don't mean that. I mean, in game:

-does the opponent see the little minefield flag as easily as I do, or is that only revealed if they already set off a mine or what?

-if I put single mine (I'm sure it represents many more than just one) at say, an opening in a wall, is that going to be effective? Or is there some critical mass where one has to put a larger amount over a wider area to actually have an impact?

[kohlenklau]

Hi Bud,

 

Experts with answers will soon be in touch but 1 thing I do when I have such a question is to make a little tiny test battle and run it.

#1 It is a good method to learn the ins and outs of the editor and #2 also it does give you clear concrete feedback that you can take screenshots of and display to others. Pretty soon you are hearing: "Ask Bud, he is the mine expert..."

[Baneman]

-does the opponent see the little minefield flag as easily as I do, or is that only revealed if they already set off a mine or what?

-if I put single mine (I'm sure it represents many more than just one) at say, an opening in a wall, is that going to be effective? Or is there some critical mass where one has to put a larger amount over a wider area to actually have an impact?

 

The little flag is to remind YOU where they are - mines take no sides. If you run your guys through, expect bangs.

The enemy will see it after they've set one off - or if their engineers have sat in the AS or an adjacent AS for a few turns.

 

A single "mine" is as many as fit into an 8m by 8m Action Spot. How many that is actually (roughly), is not known by me.

So you are restricted to the "basic" coverage per Action Spot. It's sort of luck of the draw whether enemy set them off - note that Mixed mines are ( in my experience ) not worth much, I've seen LOTS of infantry run through them with impunity... and then after 9 squads have run through. the last squad sets off 3.

 

So if you're going to use them, AP or AT specific rather than Mixed is (usually) more effective.

[Bud Backer]

The little flag is to remind YOU where they are - mines take no sides. If you run your guys through, expect bangs.

The enemy will see it after they've set one off - or if their engineers have sat in the AS or an adjacent AS for a few turns.

 

A single "mine" is as many as fit into an 8m by 8m Action Spot. How many that is actually (roughly), is not known by me.

So you are restricted to the "basic" coverage per Action Spot. It's sort of luck of the draw whether enemy set them off - note that Mixed mines are ( in my experience ) not worth much, I've seen LOTS of infantry run through them with impunity... and then after 9 squads have run through. the last squad sets off 3.

 

So if you're going to use them, AP or AT specific rather than Mixed is (usually) more effective.

Thank you, you saved me hours of experimenting. Mucho appreciated!

[lcm1977]

Excellent question Bud-B.  I was wondering about that very thing myself. 

[kohlenklau]

OK, you're on to me Bud. I'll come clean. For every scenario that ever gets made, even if just on your PC, BFC has spyware that knows and they send me a nickel (5 cent coin!).

Edited January 25, 2015 by kohlenklau

[Bud Backer]

OK, you're on to me Bud. I'll come clean. For every scenario that ever gets made, even if just on your PC, BFC has spyware that knows and they send me a nickel (5 cent coin!).

 

LOL! 

 

But what will you do with all those wooden nickels? 

[slysniper]

Two basic ways I like using mines.

First as bobby trap locations. Or in other words. I place them in locations I anticipate hoping the enemy will cross. Thus causing losses and sometimes I might have covering fire that I will use once they hit the mine. When used this way, My minds are spaced out thin and all over the place trying to find good possible locations to get a kill or two.

second as massive mine fields. basically using it to try and detour or get the enemy to use another route because the mine field is creating too much of a obstacles to try to bother with. In other words you are trying to channel the enemy movements to a location of your design. This requires a massive amount of mines and an few units to cover it so that the field cannot be breached.( I don't play QB's so I am not sure this approach could be used there since the cost and how they affect scoring might not work well for that type of game)

Edited January 26, 2015 by slysniper

[Bulletpoint]

My minds are spaced out thin and all over the place trying to find good possible locations to get a kill or two.

 

 

Put down the pipe, hippie.. marijuana is not a combat drug

[womble]

Another way to use mines is to protect a flank or other approach vector that's got defilade to keep your troopies safe from ranged fires and observation, but which would be unfortunate if the enemy used that same defilade to sneak close. Put some mines just on the far side of the crest from your troops, so that anyone trying to approach the crest a) gets blown up and announces their presence by that measure.

[poesel]

IIRC there are 6-8 mines per flag. For mixed mines you get half of that per type. With only 3-4 AP mines in a mixed mine field of 16qm chances are high that your infantry misses them.

 

Putting mines in openings can be effective. However sometimes ASs don't line up with the opening so you have to put at least two mines there.

[A Canadian Cat]

( I don't play QB's so I am not sure this approach could be used there since the cost and how they affect scoring might not work well for that type of game)

@slysniper covered what I was going to say. So I'll just say that in a QB I have not found placing large minefields cost effective. Once you pay for enough mines you do not have enough resources left to cover the mine field and protect what ever area you wanted to channel your enemy. That has been my experience anyway.

However mines in scenarios can be a blast - or really frustrating. I am playing Seven Winds right now - yikes it has some serious mine fields.

[Bud Backer]

IIRC there are 6-8 mines per flag. For mixed mines you get half of that per type. With only 3-4 AP mines in a mixed mine field of 16qm chances are high that your infantry misses them.

 

Putting mines in openings can be effective. However sometimes ASs don't line up with the opening so you have to put at least two mines there.

This is useful, thank you. I assume if I wanted a more dense mine filed I can put several in one action space.

[Bud Backer]

@slysniper covered what I was going to say. So I'll just say that in a QB I have not found placing large minefields cost effective. Once you pay for enough mines you do not have enough resources left to cover the mine field and protect what ever area you wanted to channel your enemy. That has been my experience anyway.However mines in scenarios can be a blast - or really frustrating. I am playing Seven Winds right now - yikes it has some serious mine fields.

You're right, mines in a QB can be pricey. Still, their presence, if it costs a few casualties and makes the opponent uncertain where there are more, can make their value exceed their price

[Baneman]

This is useful, thank you. I assume if I wanted a more dense mine filed I can put several in one action space.

 

Nope.

That's what I meant when I said "you are restricted to the "basic" coverage per Action Spot".

[Apocal]

second as massive mine fields. basically using it to try and detour or get the enemy to use another route because the mine field is creating too much of a obstacles to try to bother with. In other words you are trying to channel the enemy movements to a location of your design. This requires a massive amount of mines and an few units to cover it so that the field cannot be breached.( I don't play QB's so I am not sure this approach could be used there since the cost and how they affect scoring might not work well for that type of game)

 

This is a good method for keeping people honest when it comes to map-edge hugging.

[Melchior]

My impression of map edges is that they imply areas my forces cannot enter *because* of mines or terrain. You could also argue that it's the operational boundary for another unit but that wouldn't stop me from maneuvering through there. 

 

To me though it's a good idea to illustrate at least little on the usable section of the map why the map terminates where it does. Showing the start of rough or impassable terrain or lining the edge with a minefield for example. 

[kohlenklau]

Maybe my brain is foggy but wasn't it CMBO where if they got too close to the edge they disappeared? Am I remembering that right? 

[rocketman]

Maybe my brain is foggy but wasn't it CMBO where if they got too close to the edge they disappeared? Am I remembering that right? 

Yep, units could exit maps back in CM*1. I actually miss that now that routed units can't escape but hang around the edge of the map - usually to meet a grim end.

[A Canadian Cat]

Maybe my brain is foggy but wasn't it CMBO where if they got too close to the edge they disappeared? Am I remembering that right?

Probably not quite: There had to be a specified exit edge - and only one edge in CM1. Not all scenarios had them.

[Baneman]

Probably not quite: There had to be a specified exit edge - and only one edge in CM1. Not all scenarios had them.

 

No, in CMBB and CMAK ( possibly CMBO too  ), routing units would exit off any edge if they kept running.

[A Canadian Cat]

Oh sure routing units. But I thought we were talking about your units that accidentally got to close to the edge. Guess I misunderstood.

[Sublime]

Mines are awesome only because its SOOOO gratifying when your opponent actually stumbles upon them. That said, they're only needed in very specific situations. I tried to raise awareness of what I feel is a bug a year or two ago and dont know if it was resolved but if it hasnt know that vehicles moving at SLOW will not be disabled by mines! They will just take track damage!  This should NOT be the case and I tried to make a big flap of it - at the time I was using AT mines in a PBEM and immobilized my opponents 2 tanks that were using hunt. he had two more using slow and both of those (this was the only time Ive had an opponent hit 4 sets of mines) were not immobilized and kept going even though the mine detonated.

I feel  if this hasnt been resolved it should be looked at. I wouldnt be surprised if it hasnt been - mines are rarely used.

The opponent cannot see the minefield flag, thats for you.  A minefield flag represents a... minefield. not one mine.   Though with AT mines it generally is only one, maybe a  few mines, AP its maybe 5-10.

[A Canadian Cat]

Mines are awesome only because its SOOOO gratifying when your opponent actually stumbles upon them.

Indeed. Most of the time they seem to manage to drive around mine though.

I tried to raise awareness of what I feel is a bug a year or two ago and dont know if it was resolved but if it hasnt know that vehicles moving at SLOW will not be disabled by mines! They will just take track damage!

I agree that would be a bug - I'll add that to my list of stuff to watch for.

Though with AT mines it generally is only one, maybe a  few mines, AP its maybe 5-10.

No there are more then one mine in an action square of AT mines - I do not know how many but more than one.

[Bulletpoint]

I think I read somewhere that squares with AT mines have 2-3 mines in them, AP 8-12.