Military service of soldiers.

[Splinty]

Not to rederail, but simply in passing, it is sort of a simplistic version of events you presented.  Iraqis blamed us for things that were in no way part of anything the US had ever done to Iraq.  What we did do to restore prosperity even at great cost in human lives and resources was always not enough.  If you helped the Shia it was not enough (because we should have built houses for everyone, and assigned a squad per family to serve as their personal servants) and the Sunni just become certain it's part of the American-Shia plot to sell all Sunnis to Iran as slaves.  You help the Sunni, and the Sunni are unhappy because you haven't restored the Ba'ath party, shot all the Shia for being insolent, and the Shia think you've actually secretly cloned Saddam and he's now calling the shots.

 

In terms of the absurdity, imagine yourself and all your coworkers (even the ones you really don't like) scooped up, put on a plane, and dropped in some other country.  Now your country may (or may have not) done some questionable stuff to the country you're in now that has created some instability.  However instability does not pick up a bomb vest and walk into a market because God thinks it is a great idea.  It does not scoop kids up on the way home from school, hold them for ransom, collect said ransom and then kill kids because they're the wrong sect anyway.  It does not pull people off of a bus, and decide who lives or dies based on a theological dilemma from centuries ago.  

 

So now you're sitting there, with your coworkers, and someone is holding you responsible for the inhumanity of man, and for being simply from a country that's contribution to this whole catastrophic mess in terms of causing it, was maybe building about 20 meters of the 100 KM highway to chaos.  The US may have opened pandora's box, but it didn't build it, fill it for a few hundred years, and for a long time it valiantly tried to stuff all those evils back into the box, again at the cost of thousands of American lives and billions of dollars (again, the US plan for Iraq was "Saddam is dead, high fives, maybe like 20,000 dudes stay behind to help clean stuff up for a year or two" not seven to eight years depending on your math of suck).  Even more the box existed, and was out in the open.  Someone was going to open that box, and someone was going to unleash hell on Iraq.  It might have been in the eventual "which of Saddam's Sons will rule next?" conflict of 2014.  It might have been the hypothetical Iranian invasion of 2016.  It could have been when the peace loving Alpha Centurians come to earth in 2021 to bring love and sharing to all men, but they accidentially fly too close to the Golden Mosque on approach and now it's all Allah Akbar because that shows a clear disrespect for Shia so the aliens must be secret Sunni.  

 

So again, sitting there with your coworkers, you are responsible for the sins of Iraq's fathers, grandfathers's and great grandfathers.  So as you stuggle, as you work, as you bleed, you will be eternally blamed for things you did not do, stuff that happened sometimes before your country even existed, and most damning of all, the people blaming you will simply sit there and contribute their part to the chaos (giving money to insurgents, not calling the police/tipline when they see someone planting a bomb etc etc) all while pointing the finger of blame at you.

Amen

[Battlefront.com]

A quick follow up to focus on the sad realities of power changes and the position it puts armed forces in.

As said above, what has happened in post-Saddam Iraq was going to happen, at some point, no matter what. While it is true that those who removed Saddam should be held accountable for the mistakes made in handling the transition of power (and the mistakes are many, for sure), the factional warfare was unavoidable. Had Saddam's regime lasted another 20 years of brutally keeping a lid on the social inequality and religious animosities, the 21st year would be massive bloodshed. It is possible, even, that despite major deficiencies in how Iraq was handled 2003-2006 the result was a kinder, gentler, quicker conflict than would have happened without outside interference.

Anybody that doesn't understand this is someone with a flawed understanding of reality. As such, a person who is not really capable of holding a meaningful opinion about what happened 2003-present.

Steve

[Lethaface]

A quick follow up to focus on the sad realities of power changes and the position it puts armed forces in.

As said above, what has happened in post-Saddam Iraq was going to happen, at some point, no matter what. While it is true that those who removed Saddam should be held accountable for the mistakes made in handling the transition of power (and the mistakes are many, for sure), the factional warfare was unavoidable. Had Saddam's regime lasted another 20 years of brutally keeping a lid on the social inequality and religious animosities, the 21st year would be massive bloodshed. It is possible, even, that despite major deficiencies in how Iraq was handled 2003-2006 the result was a kinder, gentler, quicker conflict than would have happened without outside interference.

Anybody that doesn't understand this is someone with a flawed understanding of reality. As such, a person who is not really capable of holding a meaningful opinion about what happened 2003-present.

Steve

 

Personally I never blame an individual soldier and granted Iraq was in a FUBAR situation already, the US/Coalition invasion didn't do it no good and many people died because of the f*ckups on political and strategical level. War is hell.

[Hister]

Guys, I see my post was partly misunderstood. It was way too brief and prone to stir trouble - that much I admit. I wrote it quickly before I joined snow fights with my neigbors due to fresh snow deliveries. I didn't want to miss that fun but really wanted to comment on pnzldr's comment about that girl accusing USA soldiers for her father's death. 

 

I never said and I don't believe Iraq would remain in status quo forever. Yes, sooner or later **** would hit the fan - internal situation there was ripe for that. I've read the history on Iraq, all the reasons that lead to current ISIS appearance, etc. some time ago. I wanted to understand why ISIS exists and why they were so successful in gaining ground. I did my research and was able to better understand what kind of impact USA's invasion made in that situation. 

 

Steve and others accusing me of being an ignorant person making a too simplified statement have all the right to do so basing their opinion of me on that short statement I made but I don't share their view about myself, heh. I have all the respect and admiration for Steve knowing his capacity to analyse geopolitical happening in the world and predict what will likely happen in the future, his view of the war and his plentiful other above average capabilities. Likewise I can show nothing but respect to pnzldr reading what he went through, reading his fascinating AAR in the CMBS forum, etc.

 

BUT I will fight for my right to express my opinion in the context of the post I'm refering to. It wasn't I started to talk about completely unrelevant stuff to what was spoken here. I made  remark on pnzldr's remark with which I couldn't fully agree. Anyone saying my remark was pulled out of my ass and is a total lie or totaly distorted truth should stop for a moment and take a deep breath.

 

Individual soldiers should defenitely not be equated with their countries policies and agendas but countries use those soldiers to achieve their military goals. Accusing me this is a wrong statement is not OK, really not OK.  

[chief809]

Assume Sailor's and Airmen are also welcome here.

USN 73-77

Crash and Rescue at NAS Agana Guam,

Evacuation of Saigon,

USS Constellation CV-64,Flight Deck, WestPac 77.

USCG 79-95

CG Station New York, CG Station Short Beach, CG Station Eatons Neck

CG Cutter Point Franklin WPB 82350,Cape May NJ

CG Cutter Point Herron WPB 82318,Fire Island NY

CG Cutter Dallas WHEC-716 Governors Island,NY

Pulled plenty of Hatians, Cubans and Americans out of the water. Busted lot's of Dope. Scooped Floater's and Jumper's out of the East River. Escorted and provided security for President's and Prince's.

Hell of a ride.

Retired as a Chief Petty Officer

[Buzz]

Not a former military service member. Never in a declared war. Outside any service man’s level of experience of practical contact with and observation of facts or events in wars. I never wanted or want to go to war because …“war sucks.”

Steve’s post “… caring is proportional to the "closeness" relative to the individual… ” did strongly resonate with my Life experience.

One of my medical gigs we encountered hundreds of people dying per year in our Emergency Room.... over many years. Saved plenty more but ... to survive … one must ‘numb up’ to cope with unrelenting, senseless, massive traumas... on our watch…. to come back for more.

In another of my medical gigs I encountered hundreds of people dying per year… almost a decade on this job …. from Cancer, AIDS, etc. etc. (pretty much any terminal diagnosis)…  I got the call.

BIG difference was “… caring is proportional to the "closeness" relative to the individual… ”

In medical gig #1, Emergency Room, it was ACUTE, blood in / on your face, Live or Die - NOW! We would ‘numb up’ to cope and move onto the next one. Pediatric Trauma was often ‘monkey wrench’. Really hard to roll stretchers to the side of infants, < 5 year old children and their siblings for the next customer.

In medical gig #2 the "closeness" relative to the individual” was often much more complicated and complex. Working with people and their husbands, wives, children, Moms & Pops ….. while guiding ‘customers’  to Actively Live … while they and I knew they were Actively Dying … amplifies the "closeness" factor … logarithmically.

“The dog associated with the individual is a close companion, it is loved and it loves back. The person sees the dog constantly each day and there is bond that is formed which is almost as primal as it is intellectual. It has a name…..”

After all these decades of Work / Life / Death experiences, I can validate the school of thought that “… caring is proportional to the "closeness" relative to the individual… ”

World would be a much better place if we treated others the way the way we would treat ourselves... or our dogs.

 

Peace,
Buzz

Don’t even get me started on our animal companions….
 

[LukeFF]

I did my research and was able to better understand what kind of impact USA's invasion made in that situation. 

 

Steve and others accusing me of being an ignorant person making a too simplified statement have all the right to do so basing their opinion of me on that short statement I made but I don't share their view about myself, heh. I have all the respect and admiration for Steve knowing his capacity to analyse geopolitical happening in the world and predict what will likely happen in the future, his view of the war and his plentiful other above average capabilities. Likewise I can show nothing but respect to pnzldr reading what he went through, reading his fascinating AAR in the CMBS forum, etc.

 

BUT I will fight for my right to express my opinion in the context of the post I'm refering to. It wasn't I started to talk about completely unrelevant stuff to what was spoken here. I made  remark on pnzldr's remark with which I couldn't fully agree. Anyone saying my remark was pulled out of my ass and is a total lie or totaly distorted truth should stop for a moment and take a deep breath.

 

Individual soldiers should defenitely not be equated with their countries policies and agendas but countries use those soldiers to achieve their military goals. Accusing me this is a wrong statement is not OK, really not OK.  

 

Nice try but no, I'm not buying that one bit. I've seen these arguments time and time again to know you just wanted to get in a potshot against American foreign policy. 

[Battlefront.com]

Nice try but no, I'm not buying that one bit. I've seen these arguments time and time again to know you just wanted to get in a potshot against American foreign policy.

Yup, I have to agree. And I've seen it in Hister's other posts, so I think it was perfectly legit to call it for what it was... an over simplified shot and deliberately pushing this thread in a totally different direction. People have been deliberately NOT addressing the geopolitical nature of the comments here. As proof of that, I have very strong opinions about some of the other wars mentioned here, yet I have not found it either necessary nor relevant to express my opinions about them. I also have some strong opinions about the actions of Tito's Partizans, but this isn't the place for that either. Politics is not the purpose of this thread.

As for the comment you responded to Hister, you apparently still don't see the point. And that is no matter how much the US botched the post war scene in Iraq, nobody but that Sunni insurgent was responsible for killing her father. Period. On top of that, who is to say that Saddam wouldn't have got around to do it for whatever random reason if the US hadn't taken him out of power? Now, with that said, obviously the woman has a right to blame whomever she wants to blame for whatever reason. She earned the right to not be objective. PzrLdr, on the other hand, has earned the right to have perspective since he was in Iraq risking his life for someone else's future.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Buzz,

I have had more than my fair share of exposure to what you have done. I've interacted with doctors who spent much of their career with a patient mortality rate pushing 75% and higher. They can not do their jobs without getting to know their patients, their families, and sometimes even their communities. I have more respect than you can possibly imagine for those who choose to show up for work every day to a job that most people would want nothing to do with for "all the tea in china".

Soldiers get thanked for service, so should you.

Now, that is a bit off topic but I think a worthy diversion.

Steve

[womble]

It is possible, even, that despite major deficiencies in how Iraq was handled 2003-2006 the result was a kinder, gentler, quicker conflict than would have happened without outside interference.

Look at Syria for an illustration of that... While I'm sure various agents-provocateurs from various external interested "agencies" were putting their oar in, no actual foreign boots or planes started the mess that was the civil war there. Just ideas and internal conditions.

[Hister]

Nice try but no, I'm not buying that one bit. I've seen these arguments time and time again to know you just wanted to get in a potshot against American foreign policy.

  

No Luke, I wanted to step in the defence of a woman whose father got killed by Sunnis. Stating she was not right for saying american soldiers are not responsible in a way for what hapćened is throwing a sand into your own eyes. While what if scenarios are interesting it's the facto events that I'm reffering here.

Stop,accussing me of something I did't plan to do nor haven't done. I did,'t wanna stir you guys up, I wasn't attacking your countries foreign policies, I wasn't attacking amerucan soldiers and american culture for god's sake! I stepped in the defense of that woman. Of ourse hef father was not shot by usa soldiers. But USA is to be blamed for her fathers death too along with all the other factors that led to division of sunnies and shias, whole ****ing history since Mohammad started his agenda. And USA soldiefs have their stake in it to. They carried out their countries military goals so in the end saying that woman was wrong for,claiming USA soldiers did it is WRONG. I'm sorry if your foreigner policy, previous attack on it by whoewer you had those conversations with and whatnot got involved in this conversation but for that I'm not to be accused I did it intentionally.

Yup, I have to agree. And I've seen it in Hister's other posts, so I think it was perfectly legit to call it for what it was... an over simplified shot and deliberately pushing this thread in a totally different direction. People have been deliberately NOT addressing the geopolitical nature of the comments here. As proof of that, I have very strong opinions about some of the other wars mentioned here, yet I have not found it either necessary nor relevant to express my opinions about them. I also have some strong opinions about the actions of Tito's Partizans, but this isn't the place for that either. Politics is not the purpose of this thread.As for the comment you responded to Hister, you apparently still don't see the point. And that is no matter how much the US botched the post war scene in Iraq, nobody but that Sunni insurgent was responsible for killing her father. Period. On top of that, who is to say that Saddam wouldn't have got around to do it for whatever random reason if the US hadn't taken him out of power? Now, with that said, obviously the woman has a right to blame whomever she wants to blame for whatever reason. She earned the right to not be objective. PzrLdr, on the other hand, has earned the right to have perspective since he was in Iraq risking his life for someone else's future.Steve

Steve, see my reply above. Yes, pnzlr has a right to post his opinion and so do I to comment his views without having to risk my life to be able to do so. Should my view be discarded just because I wasn't there risking my life? I don't think so. If we are not supposed to comment other people's stories and points of view in this thread then just say so. I will try not to make any addittional post that could derrail this topic or merrit your intervention.

As for partisans and their political agendas you are hinting I view them as saints, that I have a high regard of them, that I don't view them objectivelly. That is bull ****. I'm well aware of their agendas, deeds, murders, terror they did. Hell, they even killed more then 100.000 prisoners of war amongst which wefe many civilians including whole families and that happened after the war officially ended. Whole Slovenia is littered with mass graves from that time, lots of it in karst caves. Those events were a taboo topic until Slovenia separated and first uncoverings started to appear. Slovenia had a civil war in WW2 and I do believe Slovenian partisans killed more Slovenian collaborators or people labelled as such or simply political opponents then they did Italians or Germans.

My granddad had a hard time getting to terms with this part of history although he had nothing directly to do with that but it left a huge black stain on what he thought was a noble undertaking to get rid of occupators and to establish a socialist society. He was too young back then to be really able to be conciouss about it but after he became a police officer and later sent to Hungarian border where he experienced shootouts with Soviets/Hungarians he was already thlurougly indoctrinated. Him becoming a guard for Tito when that enlightened dictator was staying in his Slovenian villas even intensified his believes. So it's reasonable it hurt him when post war illegal killings were being discussed for this was not what he "signed for". Would I dare saying he is in part responsible for those illegal killings after the war already ended? Yes I do. He helped partisans win the war and revolution and that makes him part of the whole story and explains why he felt not at ease when he learned what happened.

I wrote about this so that you don't accusse me of further going offtopic. This is nicely tied in to soldier stories and also enables me to respond to you Steve. Now you in turn stirred me up. He he.

  

Look at Syria for an illustration of that... While I'm sure various agents-provocateurs from various external interested "agencies" were putting their oar in, no actual foreign boots or planes started the mess that was the civil war there. Just ideas and internal conditions.

I'm not saying it,couldn't happen also in Iraq. I was simply stating what DID happen.

Some of you guys are way to jumpy but I learned a lesson and will sugarcoat my responses in order to avoid the wrath of boss Steve and other USA citizens.

[whitehot78]

no, they aren't stupid, that's probably a media tactic. Of course they don't believe that people will give up because they are so afraid. It's part of the propaganda. See what they do is make all the countries around them afraid like hell with all their videos. I was in Lebanon this summer, and I've seen the beheading videos and my uncle's friend was beheaded and I was scared ****less of being beheaded. Pure terror.

 

sometimes I get the feeling that they actually do that to convince western public opinions that a full scale ground war is necessary, but this kind of things usually makes me think more questions than answers so I prefer not to indulge in them

[Calm Breeze]

This topic got seriously de-railed!

[John Kettler]

SovietPachyderm,

 

Welcome aboard!

 

I'd amend your observation to how little people in the USA know. Period. Compared to what I've seen of mainstream European education, I feel safe in asserting the average American knows precious little. And cares less. We don't know our own history for starters. The most incredible events here rate a paragraph or two in our history books, are rote memorized, then forgotten. Given this, it's hardly a surprise people here know little about what I believe is now being called the Russo-Afghan War. In fact, I'm surprised they know anything.

 

I was a fascinated and diligent student of that war, but some of my diligence had a lot to do with that war's direct applicability to my military analyst job. Afghanistan was a kind of horrible lab for the Red Army, just as Nam was for the US.  Indeed, many Russian weapons, most classified, first combat debuted there (PFM-1 mine, BM-27, AGS-17, AK-74, titanium plate body armor, even a High Energy Laser which DIA subsequently made a classified, now publicly available, painting of, to name but some), and what was captured, stolen or abandoned there was a cornucopia of seldom seen homeland version frontline weapons and equipment for US intelligence, aided by the likes of SOF magazine which put teams of people in country, including David Isby, who literally wrote the book on the Soviet Army, taking key parts directly from what was learned in Afghanistan. The war made it possible for me, who normally worked only with pics, text and occasional video and models, to see the great beast the R-123 radio was, pick up  and examine 5.45 mm cartridge brass (still own) for what the muj called "the poison bullet", handle an SVD (very impressive and wish I owned) and even buy a Spetsnaz type striped shirt, still bearing the red dust of Afghanistan, and which I still have. I saw at least one shirt with a bullet hole and several with obvious blood stains on them. Russian uniforms came to life in the dozens which hung in that shop. No longer were they photos on a poster or artist renderings in books.

 

US strategists saw Aghanistan could be turned into Russia's Vietnam, and worked very hard,  with a slew of allies to make it so (Charlie Wilson, for example, with his smuggled ZPUs,ZUs, Dushkas and Stingers) which is exactly what it turned out to be, right down to PTSD, depression and the rapidly spreading use of drugs among the troops, a problem which many afflicted Afghantsi took home and spread. A major social problem to this day. And even in a closed society, the mounting casualties and sense of futility among the people took their ever worsening toll, on them, their society and even the government. In turn, the Russians stopped sending the bodies home. Ultimately, the war became unsustainable, which led to the humiliating withdrawal in 1989. The parallels to the US experience in Vietnam are remarkable, but this time no mechanized army smashed into the capital and claimed victory, for this was another kind of victory.

 

The Russians owned the cities and intermittently major roads, but the muj pretty much controlled the rest, and I think it's safe to assert the muj, despite unbridled brutality against the people at local levels (i.e., not Arc Light strikes), to include gassing and using biotoxins on entire villages, still enjoyed far more popular support than the Viet Cong ever did.

 

We went absolutely nuts in my department over the early Stinger footage of muj atop eminences tracking and let fly, as the helicopters and fixed wing aircraft, including the greatly feared Mi-24/HIND and Su-25/FROGFOOT, were knocked from the sky, hurt badly enough to break off or forced to fly so high they effectively ceased to be effective, and air power was, in many ways, what held the Russian military situation together.

 

The Viet Cong and North Vietnamese saw their war as a war of liberation; the muj saw it as a direct attack on Islam, and responded accordingly. The Sauid millionaire Usama Bin Laden became a major player and financier in the jihad, and from the list of foreign fighters who came to help emerged AQ. And on and on. Vietnam was mostly about the jungle; Afghanistan was dominated by the towering mountains and very thin air of the Hindu Kush, which worked heavily against the largely roadbound Russians with their utterly unsuited for the region massed armor, much of which was subsequently sent home. The population was in the valleys, and the muj almost exclusively held the high ground. The most effective units there were Spetsnaz, VDV and Air Assault, and the muj showed they could wallop all three, given the right time, place and situation. Indeed, to the stunned surprise of soldiers and analysts the muj wiped out a whole Spetsnaz camp, dutifully reported in Jane's Defense Review and SOF, yielding an unprecedented intelligence haul. Maps, burst transmission radios, Makarov silenced pistols, the scary spring knife and more). And in the Panjshir Valley, Ahmad Shah Massoud not only fought the Red Army to a standstill, in a carefully and brilliantly conducted campaign lasting over five years, but it was Massoud whose forces broke the back of both the Russian and Afghan armies. And he did it with almost no US support.

 

The muj not only practiced asymmetric warfare with a vengeance, but made full use of denied terrain and safe havens, to include Pakistan. Any of this sound familiar? In the years since the Russian pullout in Afghanistan, we have now learned how the events prior to the invasion were viewed in Moscow, what preparations were made before mass invasion, the measures to defang the Afghan Army, the failed efforts to poison Amin, even the planning and action of the 200-man KGB Zenith Group, where a little digging will produce video of some of the key participants being interviewed. Simply astounding stuff.

 

And the terrible lessons of Afghanistan are directly reflected in the Russian AFVs today. The BMD with the ZU-23 on top is simply the formalizing of a field expedient. And Afghanistan is why the newer APCs and IFVs all can fire at high elevation. Sure, this is useful against low flyers, but the design imperative was born of the inability to elevate enough to engage muj on high ground overlooking the convoy routes and such. So dire was the situation that the radars were stripped out of the otherwise useless (no air threat) ZSU-23/4s, for that SPAAG had no such limitation. As those who've seen some of the Syria footage know, the Shilka is a terror in a fight.

 

Of course, this is but a swipe at the much broader, richer and deeper story. Am sure many here would welcome hearing from the Afghantsi. If we have any. To further that request, may I offer some evocative, provocative, even heart rending Russian war art? Paintings of the Afghanistan War 1979-1989.  Should we have any muj, I feel I can safely claim we very much wish to hear from them also. Their side of the war resulted in the creation of a unique Afghan art form, the war rug, the transference of the grim realities of war, as experienced by the tech unfamiliar Afghani women, to deftly woven handmade traditional carpets, now with unforgettable military icons.

 

I never served, but I did register for the draft with a close friend who has the same birthday and birthdate as mine. Four months later, the war was over for the US. He and I liked to joke the war ended because they were afraid of what we might do if we got into it. I tried to get into the service academies, but my eyesight was not waiverable. We lost dear friends in Nam, one ate an SA-2 over the Mu Ghia Pass, where the DMZ was the scene of Dad's black project PAVE FIRE III system to find and kill optically directed AA. So sensitive was this tech back then, that the strike aircraft had not just the usual MIGCAP, but a separate flight armed with unfinned napalm. Had the special bird gone down, there would've been no rescue. Wreck and crew alike were to be firebombed out of existence. Another family friend flew the C-7 Caribou and had some exciting stories of his own. Nam was the defining event of my generation as a young man, and when I was in college, there were the BTDTs, a thoroughly insular and taciturn bunch, and the almost totally clueless typical college students. Since I grew up deeply read in the Vietnam War and related matters, knew the weaponry, had had the Air Force's best F-4 crews in my house for hours on end (learned a lot of about air warfare, including air-to-air, strike and ECM) as part of PAVE FIRE III and was a rabid hawk until I read the Pentagon Papers around 1979 and felt thoroughly had, I guess you could say I straddled the groups, really belonging to neither. Both of my parents did four year hitches during the Korean War. Dad was in the Navy (came out ET1, and Mom was in the Marines,SSGT at FMFPAC when she mustered out, believe it or not. My now retired brother George was in Fulda for years with the 2/11 ACR as a Scout in Bradleys until the Berlin Wall came down, served a year in Korea,  was in Bahrain on the sidelines on standby but not called for ODS, and was in Anbar Province for OIF and aftermath (Scout in Hummers) where he was shot at, nearly blown up by a VBIED, rocketed and mortared as part of the first SBCT ever to see combat. Subsequently, he was an SFC in charge of all the radios and such in the Brigade TOC.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited February 1, 2015 by John Kettler

[LukeFF]

  

No Luke, I wanted to step in the defence of a woman whose father got killed by Sunnis. Stating she was not right for saying american soldiers are not responsible in a way for what hapćened is throwing a sand into your own eyes. While what if scenarios are interesting it's the facto events that I'm reffering here.

Stop,accussing me of something I did't plan to do nor haven't done. I did,'t wanna stir you guys up, I wasn't attacking your countries foreign policies, I wasn't attacking amerucan soldiers and american culture for god's sake! I stepped in the defense of that woman. Of ourse hef father was not shot by usa soldiers. But USA is to be blamed for her fathers death too along with all the other factors that led to division of sunnies and shias, whole ****ing history since Mohammad started his agenda. And USA soldiefs have their stake in it to. They carried out their countries military goals so in the end saying that woman was wrong for,claiming USA soldiers did it is WRONG. I'm sorry if your foreigner policy, previous attack on it by whoewer you had those conversations with and whatnot got involved in this conversation but for that I'm not to be accused I did it intentionally.

 

Roll tape, please:

 

Well, in retrospect US illegal invasion of Iraq set a chain of events that destabilised a country which was able to function only by tough hand ie. dictator and that girl had all the right to be angry on you guys - tools in the hand of the invasive government.

 

If that's not trying to stir things up, then I don't know what is. The people who assassinated her father are the ones to blame and them alone. 

[Hister]

If that's not trying to stir things up, then I don't know what is. The people who assassinated her father are the ones to blame and them alone. 

 

You defenitely see it that way wile I don't. I'm just stating historical and logical facts to which you responded the way you did. You don't agree with me and I don't with your statement that I wanted to stir things up and that sunni insurgents are alone to be attributed for what happened. Same way as I state my grandfather was not directly invlolved in illegal killings of POW's after WW2 but since he helped partisans he is part of that story too same like USA soldiers were/are part of a story in Iraq. I'm talking about the bigger picture while you seem to take into account only the micro one. We are both right in our particular points of view. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by Hister

[Hister]

John, I don't agree USA citizens are more ignorant then Europeans. Europens are often snobby and tag USA people with all sorts of derrogatives. "Americans are stupid." is a common thing you hear here. I get in all sorts of name calling here for defending Americans in that they are not particularly more stupid or more smart then an average EU citizen. It's all about points of interest, geographical and involvment distance from different geopolitical areas/topics. 

 

I doubt you can find many people here in EU who can insert USA state names in proper places on the map same as average USA guy/woman wouldn't be able to find all the European countries on the map. We both suck at finding African countries or knowing what tribe lives where, what languages are spoken in Burkina Faso and what is the predominant religion in Senegal. 

 

What is more it's USA who runs the show so you often hear about stuff envolving USA while it's not vice versa for USA people to hear stuff from EU 'cos logically not much important is happening here on geopolitical level minus the war in Ukraine at the moment. 

 

Then there's the size of the countryies discoused - Germany is roughly the size of Texas! Naturally USA citizens are not hearing as much about Germany as Germans are hearing about USA. 

 

That said there are defenitely big differences internally in USA. People in northern Cali are interested in very different things then people from Missoury. Of course there's the common thread that both share but having to know where puny Slovenia and Slovakia are and what's going on in them is by all accounts something that doesn't effect any American and rightfully so. 

[John Kettler]

Hister,

 

Having the US in 26th place in global literacy isn't exactly confidence building. And in several instances (here, including this one), there are no literacy data shown for the US! Given the first link's revelations, I can see why. I strongly suspect political arm-twisting to hide a national embarrassment. Naturally, when data are given, we come up roses.

 

I can assure you, from shocking direct experience circa 1975, that I had college seniors I was peer tutoring in Expository Writing who couldn't so much as write a thesis sentence, and while I'm no math wiz, it's almost unheard of these days to actually get your change counted back. Usually, you're just handed it.  US field manuals are written at a sixth grade level, and that's being generous and using simplified spelling to boot. And while the rank bovine excreta gush forth from the founts of deliberate untruth, a 2002 study in the US comprehensively demolished the 99% literacy claims regarding it. Page 20, Section I is profoundly disturbing. I could hammer away at this issue for hours, but I invite you to take a long hard look at other nations' curricula, what's studied and how long, then compare those results to the US. Put it this way, we desperately need another Sputnik type scare to really make education a priority. I've talked to people from all over the world, only to come away ashamed of how little we Americans know compared to other nations. Most Americans, for example, speak only English, often horribly, and write it worse. In assessing this, visiting McGuffey's Readers is eye-opening. And for abject terror over the grammatical decline of the US, consider that this brain breaker of a monograph (about the then vital matter of Railway Trusts & Secrecy) was intended to be read in every home, with readers of high school and up. Respectfully submit this would break most US college grads like a twig. I have considerable expertise on this monograph, having found and read it cover to cover as research for an article I was writing on Trusts. And I'm already an experienced Trustee of many years' standing. Frankly, the standard of writing gave me an inferiority complex, and I'm a writer with over 50 articles published, over 100 posts, 2 E-books and work which appeared in two bestselling anthologies. In the latter, I was the single largest contributor. If this monograph did that to me, what chance do people not so skilled have? Try it for yourself, but be sure to have cold compresses and headache medicine on standby! "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader" on YT can be used for warmup and calibration purposes.

 

Contrairiwise, most countries require both the native language and English be studied and mastered. Our own forum reflects this very well. Time and again newbies not from US/UK/CA/AUS/NZ arrive and immediately apologize for their English. How many of us could do the same in, say, one of: Finnish, Russian, French, German, Spanish, Japanese or Chinese? I sure couldn't. This report also tells a dreadful tale. It looks at the very curriculum issues I raised. Over and over again I've run into foreigners whose knowledge of history, art, literature, science made me feel dumb, yet I have a broad informal and formal education, read serious college level books like a fiend from 3rd Grade on, have superb English language skills, plus a four year university degree (graduated magna cum laude while working full time in military aerospace). Not only have the Europeans I've met known their national history, but Europe's history and ours, too. Pretty bad when they know more about your Revolutionary War than you do! 

 

Getting back on track, I'm finding this thread to be most valuable and informative. I deeply appreciate the candor provided by those of you who've been under fire, whether hostile or friendly, for such disclosures are rare, even among friends and family. I've been singularly fortunate in having a neighbor who's a decorated former Marine whose BTDT list includes leading a charge, across open desert, against a dug-in MG nest while the gutless LT stayed by the by the Hummer. BTW, this guy's no small target at 6'9" and broad shouldered. Think NBA player. He's told me of watching a mortar bomb coming down and whiff past his ear while in a guard tower. Luckily for him, it passed through the camo net, past him, through the other part of the net and out the back. He's told me of a raging MOUT fight in which he's shooting insurgents with a pistol from one hand while desperately driving the ambushed Hummer out of the kill zone with the other and his CO blazing away from the passenger seat with an M16. And after all that, he's thinking of going back in and having a go at Marine Scout/Sniper School! I've talked to a former SEAL who described a new kind of war wound to me: burns still on his face left by bullets which almost hit him, but didn't so much as graze his skin. This is someone with tens of wounds and who knows war intimately down to the sentry killing with bare hands level.

 

The comments from the top F-4 crews on Dad's project fall in a different category, for they were flying down the muzzles of S-60 57 mm batteries to put a 3000-pound bomb or CBUs on the guns back when LGBs barely existed at all and were desperately needed for attacking North Vietnamese bridges. Unsurprisingly, all concerned got Air Force Crosses and promotions to LT COL. Amazingly, no one got shot down, though I did hear some colorful remarks about extraordinary states of pucker factor as blazing balls, instant death in each one, shot past their cockpits.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler 

Edited February 1, 2015 by John Kettler

[pnzrldr]

To bring it back down onto the street, a little elaboration on the plight of the Shia woman who apparently started this whole discussion.  I didn't actually relate the entire story. 

 

So, her father was a Shia doctor, who helped people in Baghdad, regardless of their sect or issue.  The Sunni insurgents had presented him with 'get out of town' warnings which he chose to ignore.  They abducted him, drove him around for a bit.  Stopped in the middle of a busy main street and put him out of the car.  They put a revolver in his mouth and pulled the trigger until it was empty.  We showed up about ten minutes later.  She arrived a minute or two after us.  

 

She was hysterical - who wouldn't be?  Her father had just been murdered.  She spoke fluent English, which was a bit unfortunate.  Hysterical behaviour in a foreign language is much easier to remain aloof from.  No one is immune to their emotions when seeing the results of such a killing.  Combat experience encourages keeping a lid on these emotions in order to remain focused on the job.  Deal with the emotion later in a safer environment.  Every member of our patrol felt a degree of compassion for this woman.  It would have been much easier for us to treat it as just another part of the job ("Best job I ever had...") if we could have treated her grief as background noise.  Not possible when she addresses you in your native tongue.  We did what we could to help and console her.  

 

Her remarks to us were all over the map.  Her main accusation was that we had invaded her country, assumed responsibility for its stability and we were doing a piss poor job.  Why were we allowing things like this to happen?  Where was the security that was needed in order to truly rebuild?  I really cannot defend against this; she was correct.  Even the following year when we began the "surge" we only had perhaps 1/3 of the personnel necessary to actually stabilize a place like that with a simmering ethnic hatred beginning to boil over.  We literally needed to have a squad on every street corner, learning the language, knowing the names and faces of everyone who lived there, and knowing who was actually doing what.  Driving around in heavy armored vehicles based out of mega-FOBs specifically designed to insulate us from the (hostile) population was sort of the exact opposite of what was needed.  However, I also have no desire to see the US commit the truly necessary 750,000 or so Soldiers  that were truly needed for US forces to stabilize Iraq.  Had we done so, we would still be there, and our 5k KIA would seem paltry in comparison to how many would have died actually doing the job right.  America didn't create the instability; we just catalyzed it by removing the oppressive regime that was keeping a lid on it.  The problem is the Iraqis themselves, not us.  

 

Once we had respectfully placed her father's remains in a body bag, and loaded him (at my direction) in the back of HMMWV, I asked her what she would like us to do.  At her request, we took him to the local Iraqi hospital.  After some hesitation ('can I likely survive being seen riding in a US HMMWV') she accepted our offer to ride with us. When we finally left her at the hospital, she was thankful for the little we had done for her.  My guys really were a bit miffed that I had created a gory mess that they would have to clean up in the back of the truck.  Their casual bitching about it was part of them trying to cope, to make it seem less tragic than it really was.  

 

In my minds eye, I can still see her eyes flash when she spoke to me, and the way she alternated between impotent rage and overwhelming grief.  I feel for her to this day, and hope that she survived.  If she stayed, and if she survived, I am confidant that she is doing something to help the situation, not further hinder it.  No real basis for this, just a feeling.  

[A Canadian Cat]

If she stayed, and if she survived, I am confidant that she is doing something to help the situation, not further hinder it. No real basis for this, just a feeling.

Well her father did. Sounds like he showed leadership so there is a good chance she had the same values.

The bottom line is we all face choices every day of what we do. Do we choose to make our communities better? True, we don't often control the big picture we live in but we can control what we do. The Shia doctor chose to make his community better, those Sunni gun men chose to make it worse. Regardless of how all the players arrived in that situation they all had agency and they exercised it for good and ill. Those choices are on them. Period.

All of us civilians make those choices too things are just more dramatic during war. So, go forth and use your agency in this world to make it better, where ever you are.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Re: Hister

Could you kindly go away? You're off topic and your original comment was marginal at best.

Re: Iraqis.

By god does the milage vary. You always felt sorry for the ones trying to actually make Iraq better. All the corruption and stupidity was something that I got to leave on the tarmac at BIAP. The Iraqis doing the righteous stuff did not have that luxury.

Its just such a triumph of greed. Anything that could be stolen was. Anything that might have helped the community was sold for a pittace for scrap. Only a small number of folks seemed to have even a concept of the greater good.

Whatever damage we did was minor compared to what the Iraqis did to their own country.

[db_zero]

I’m very hesitant to put my .02 cents in, but reading some of the stories has really touched a raw nerve inside of me. Regardless of how you may feel about Iraq the men and women who were sent there didn’t have a choice, did the very best they could do, sacrificed way beyond the call of duty and were in my opinion tasked with an impossible mission.

 

When I heard of the proposed invasion of Iraq in 2002 I immediately contacted my Senator and expressed a very strong opinion that it was a terrible idea. There were 2 main objectives I heard being expressed. The search for and destruction of  WMD’s and secondly to bring democracy to the region.

 

I based my assessment on the fact that when I was 16, I  moved to the Middle East with my Mom and Dad who got a job there. It immediately became apparent the stark contrast between Western culture and ideals and Islamic cultures and ideals. The whole notion that America would invade and occupy, topple a dictator and create a democratic nation that would serve as a shining beacon to the Muslim world was in my mind absurd.

 

We also had a past history of sending troops to the region. In 1983 we sent the Marines to Lebanon and for all our might, that turned out badly. We shelled positions with 16inch cannons fired from battleships, we launched alpha strikes from aircraft carriers where we lost an A-6 which resulted in a pilot killed and a navigator captured. Suicide bombers leveled the Marine barracks and well as French positions resulting in the withdraw of US and French forces. The intentions may have been noble, but end result was a disaster.

 

The WMD issue was a separate issue that I did not bring up in my email to my senator.  

 

In the end my senator voted to invade Iraq. I didn’t protest and once we invaded I put aside my bad omens and supported the war.

 

We definitely went in too light and soon discovered that invading, toppling a dictator and occupying a country is one thing, but administering and creating democracy in a country and region with no history and concept of the democratic process is another. Fortunately the surge was successful and we left Iraq in a state where its really up to the Iraqis to decide what they want. Personally I don’t think it will be a democracy in the western sense and we really won’t know for sometime what the final outcome will be.

 

The military is a very small percentage of the American population. I wonder if that’s a good or bad thing. The military does not seem to be interested in reinstating conscription and considering the Viet-Nam experience and the aftermath that’s understandable. On the other hand I think that the military and war is far too distant to many Americans. Its someone else’s son or daughter being sent over there. Its somebody else’s husband or wife being sent over there. Its somebody else’s brother or sister being sent over there.  

 

I have a sibling who did not go overseas with me and she has absolutely no interest in what’s going on around herself or the world. She like many other Americans wants to just live the good life and not be bothered with unpleasant issues. However if my niece or nephew were sent over there, she would change. IMO too many Americans are far too eager to go to war with no real skin in the game.

 

One last thing. Its not just the men and women who get sent overseas who have to suffer and endure. The families are in it too. When we returned to the states from the Middle East, my father would go back. He would sit down with me and tell me I had to step up and grow up a little faster and take care of my mom and look after her while he was away. I’m quite sure families in the military have the same sort of talk when its time to deploy.

 

I just hope that the leaders and American people have learned something from all of this and that all of the sacrifices were not made in vain.

[Hister]

John, thank you for the insight. 

 

I was not talking about literacy but general knowledge of geo-political situation for which you don't need to know how to read and write (although that on it's own hinders such person a lot on all fields, granted). Of course different countries have different quality of education - same as with quality of military in different countried varies a lot - exactly what CMBS is brilliantly portraying now . It's hard to come up with an average number for EU education quality since mileage varies a lot. There are huge differences. What I was saying is that an average person in USA is similar to an average person in EU it's just the reversed geographical areas each knows more about and both of them have very little knowledge when it comes to lets say Africa. But this is indeed very offtopic so we can discuss this in PMs.

 

Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans are a lot into history. History is discussed a lot, people genuinely like it and dream of the past times when their country was at height of power for example. Instead of thinking of the future and planning ahead they get lost in discussing who was right and who was wrong. So to answer your fascination of how nonamericans are into history, yeah it's true but this also brings the other side of the story with it. Would I rather live in a society that doesn't know much about history and has plans for the future or in one where future is not on agenda much but a lot is being discussed who did what in the past, etc.? Of course middle road would be ideal but you can hardly find a country in the world who would be ideal and suit ones needs 100%.

 

As for the language, USA has a huge pool of English speakers that is sorrounded with oceans on East and West, again English speakers in the North and Mexican speakers in the South. That nets you only 1 foreign language you ought to learn out of neccessity. You are good if you learn Spanish due to big percentage of latin speaking people living in US and your southern neigbors but it's not really neccessary. There aren't much incentives to learn any other language because it simply works the way it is. Many people around the world speak it. Now compare this with Slovenia. It is of the size of New Jersey where 2 million people speak it, it's sorrounded with Italian, Austrian, Hungarian and Croatian speakers in their respective nation-states. Nobody else in the world speaks Slovenian besides diaspora. Since it's using an arhaic Slavic grammar it's really hard for any foreigner to learn it. It's not only wise but neccessary for a Slovenian to learn at least one addittional foreigner language beside obligatory English. Ussually we learn either Italian or German in school but it's very ussual people add another one for good measure. People who were frequenting school when Yugoslavia still existed also learnt Serbo-Croatian. Thus Slovenians are known poliglots and ranking in the top of the world poliglot chart. Similar situations can be found in other EU states (albeit not so radical as in Slovenia). I hope this explains your observation on language knowledge. Do reply in PM if you have any addittional comments due to offtopicism.  

 

 

To bring it back down onto the street, a little elaboration on the plight of the Shia woman who apparently started this whole discussion.  I didn't actually relate the entire story.

 

Thank you for the story pnzldr and for your conduct in this situation. Respect.

 

 

America didn't create the instability; we just catalyzed it by removing the oppressive regime that was keeping a lid on it.

 

Huge thanx for this statement! This is exactly what I was stating and it stirred some of you guys up. 

 

 

All of us civilians make those choices too things are just more dramatic during war. So, go forth and use your agency in this world to make it better, where ever you are. 

 

Amen to that IanL!

 

 

Re: Hister

Could you kindly go away? You're off topic and your original comment was marginal at best. 

 

panzersaurkrautwerfer, I will kindly reject your request for I haven't violated terms of this forum and thread and also contributed to it with stories of my own. While I agree I should have expanded on my original post that made some of you guys jump off your chairs I provided my reasons why I did so and delivered my further explanations later on. I'm not the one who offtracked this, I made a comment on pnzldr's post without any of the intensions I was being accused of, not to say my original statement withstands all scrutiny. pnzldr just backed me with his further explanation of the event too.  

 

You can put me on ignore list if you can't stand me but I'm here to stay and hopefully will be able to share additional stories and comments. 

[BletchleyGeek]

To bring it back down onto the street, a little elaboration on the plight of the Shia woman who apparently started this whole discussion. I didn't actually relate the entire story.

So, her father was a Shia doctor, who helped people in Baghdad, regardless of their sect or issue. The Sunni insurgents had presented him with 'get out of town' warnings which he chose to ignore. They abducted him, drove him around for a bit. Stopped in the middle of a busy main street and put him out of the car. They put a revolver in his mouth and pulled the trigger until it was empty. We showed up about ten minutes later. She arrived a minute or two after us.

She was hysterical - who wouldn't be? Her father had just been murdered. She spoke fluent English, which was a bit unfortunate. Hysterical behaviour in a foreign language is much easier to remain aloof from. No one is immune to their emotions when seeing the results of such a killing. Combat experience encourages keeping a lid on these emotions in order to remain focused on the job. Deal with the emotion later in a safer environment. Every member of our patrol felt a degree of compassion for this woman. It would have been much easier for us to treat it as just another part of the job ("Best job I ever had...") if we could have treated her grief as background noise. Not possible when she addresses you in your native tongue. We did what we could to help and console her.

Her remarks to us were all over the map. Her main accusation was that we had invaded her country, assumed responsibility for its stability and we were doing a piss poor job. Why were we allowing things like this to happen? Where was the security that was needed in order to truly rebuild? I really cannot defend against this; she was correct. Even the following year when we began the "surge" we only had perhaps 1/3 of the personnel necessary to actually stabilize a place like that with a simmering ethnic hatred beginning to boil over. We literally needed to have a squad on every street corner, learning the language, knowing the names and faces of everyone who lived there, and knowing who was actually doing what. Driving around in heavy armored vehicles based out of mega-FOBs specifically designed to insulate us from the (hostile) population was sort of the exact opposite of what was needed. However, I also have no desire to see the US commit the truly necessary 750,000 or so Soldiers that were truly needed for US forces to stabilize Iraq. Had we done so, we would still be there, and our 5k KIA would seem paltry in comparison to how many would have died actually doing the job right. America didn't create the instability; we just catalyzed it by removing the oppressive regime that was keeping a lid on it. The problem is the Iraqis themselves, not us.

Once we had respectfully placed her father's remains in a body bag, and loaded him (at my direction) in the back of HMMWV, I asked her what she would like us to do. At her request, we took him to the local Iraqi hospital. After some hesitation ('can I likely survive being seen riding in a US HMMWV') she accepted our offer to ride with us. When we finally left her at the hospital, she was thankful for the little we had done for her. My guys really were a bit miffed that I had created a gory mess that they would have to clean up in the back of the truck. Their casual bitching about it was part of them trying to cope, to make it seem less tragic than it really was.

In my minds eye, I can still see her eyes flash when she spoke to me, and the way she alternated between impotent rage and overwhelming grief. I feel for her to this day, and hope that she survived. If she stayed, and if she survived, I am confidant that she is doing something to help the situation, not further hinder it. No real basis for this, just a feeling.

Thanks for sharing that deeper insight Scott.

[Battlefront.com]

Hister,

 

Some of you guys are way to jumpy but I learned a lesson and will sugarcoat my responses in order to avoid the wrath of boss Steve and other USA citizens.

You really don't get it, do you? As someone who was 100% against the war in Iraq, and highly critical of the way it was conducted, I still could easily debate your point of view into the depths of the caves of Postojna. Since I've been there, I know how deep they go. But this is NOT THE THREAD for such a debate. It is not about your opinion being uncomfortable or difficult to deal with, it is about it being OFF TOPIC.

Now, knock it off. Your final warning. The others who have jumped in, leave it alone.

This thread is for sharing of military experiences only. If a soldier wishes to express an opinion or observation directly related to his military experiences, that's fine. But definitely keep it narrowly focused and tied to an experience.

Steve