Strategic and tactical realities in CMBS

[Sergius]

It has become iconic in Ukrainian eyes due to numerous failed Separatist assault attempts starting from as early as the end of last May when Ukrainian forces recaptured it after a quick grab by the separatists. The defenders of the airport have earned the nick-name Cyborgs in the Ukrainian media (supposedly the Separatists first gave them that name) due to their ability to withstand death.

Due to the airport being surrounded by an open area it appears to be well suited for defense considering Ukrainian artillery from Pisky and Avdiivka can and have been shelling any Separatist assaults on the airport.

 

Currently the old terminal is destroyed and no longer occupied by the Ukrianian defense forces. A quote I read from one of the defenders stated that there is simply nothing to hide behind in that building anymore. The new Terminal has three floors, and some kind of underground network. As far as I know at this point the Ukrainian defenders are only in the control of the first two floors of the New Terminal as the third floor is rubble and Separatists have found a way into the underground network. Source from end of October: http://www.latimes.com/world/great-reads/la-fg-c1-ukraine-airport-20141028-story.html#page=1

and some extra photos from the writer of that article: http://maidantranslations.com/2014/10/21/l-a-times-correspondent-sergei-loiko-photo-essay-the-tankers-final-journey/

 

The Airport tower was also used by Ukrainian snipers, but it has collapsed recently.

 

Ukrainian troops have a Armored support in the close-by village of Pisky as well.

 

There's even a Wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Donetsk_Airport

 

From the Separatist viewpoint the airport is a part of Donetsk and is important in the negotiations for peace as currently Donetsk's People's Republic cannot even say that they're in control of all of Donetsk at the negotiating table.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Sergius

[Battlefront.com]

The conflict is largely stalemated by Ukraine's choice. They have decided to limit offensive actions to just about zero and have a general policy of not shooting except when shot at. Not a perfect record, but I am sure if the separatists stopped shooting there would be a real cease fire. But that's a more complicated topic.

The last few days the separatists, backed by small numbers of Russian forces, have attacked a large number of points by artillery and some ground assaults. This is about 3 times as many "cease fire" violations as there was prior to things quieting down at the end of 2014 and about 2 times as much as last week. WWhich doesn't tell the whole story because the violations have been more intense as well.

The Donetsk airport has several very important points:

1. Public image. It is embarrassing that the separatists can't take this place. Every failed separatist assault boost's Ukraine's morale. The defenders (and they are rotated fairly regularly) have special status in Ukrainian society and the separatists would love nothing more than to reverse that.

2. Minsk accord. In theory the frontlines are the starting point for larger negotiations about the future of this region. That was what the separatists sorta agreed to (that's a longer story too!). There was a wider effort for increasing territory, including Donetsk airport, so that if the political boundaries are redrawn they (separatists) want these places on their side of the line. Donetsk airport might be the most well known failure of the separatists to gain ground, but there's about a half dozen other places that have also seen significant military defeats for the separatists.

3. Keep separatists busy. Idle hands isn't a good thing. Better to lose a couple dozen men in yet another failed attack than to have everybody standing around trying to keep their feet warm.

Steve

[dan/california]

This Terny

 

Terny is a pleasant little crossroads town south of the E101.  It is exactly the kind of place that could be temporarily for all of the wrong reasons.  None of these terrain features are un-flankable, but they would certainly impose a delay relative actually owning the road junction.  The red line is 4 kilometers, for scale.  There are a lot of possibilities for one large or several small scenarios.

[Battlefront.com]

Hi everyone, new user here. Can't believe there's a game about this conflict already, that's some good foresight!

 

 

The ceasefire was supposedly sort of working until a couple of days ago. Recently that have been numerous engagements across the front including another strong attack on the Donetsk airport that brought down it's iconic tower and a graphic artillery strike on a Ukrainian checkpoint that shredded a bus full of civilian refugees: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30798426/ and the *VERY GRAPHIC* video: (removed)

or PG-13 version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16pUz8nVLR4

 

Steve, I'm curious what you think about this blog: http://oyblogg.blogspot.se/. It seems to be a detailed giant list of daily Russian Armed Forces losses, I don't know if someone is just being creative there or it's some kind of a leak in the Russian Forces.

I deleted the graphic video link. That is not something we want on this Forum. Please don't link to the graphic stuff in the future. Thanks.

Oh, and absolutely no discussing the civil war in Syria or the ISIS expansion into Iraq. It's really not relevant to the discussion here.

Steve

[dan/california]

How do we post pictures from google earth?

[AttorneyAtWar]

How do we post pictures from google earth?

 

You need to take a screen capture and upload it to an image site, and than link to that.

[Cuddles the Warmonger]

Oh, and absolutely no discussing the civil war in Syria or the ISIS expansion into Iraq. It's really not relevant to the discussion here.

Steve

 

Makes sense, but speaking of irregulars (and I apologize for possibly asking something probably answered), will there be an expansion pack adding Donetsk separatists to the Russians, or even Ukrainian militia (the few that there are) to the game?

[Battlefront.com]

Combat Mission Black Sea will not portray the irregular forces that exist today in any specific way. But yes, for those who want to recreate a specific battle in today's real war that will be possible. Similar to how people used CM Shock Force to simulate battles in Iraq even though the game was never designed to cover it.

Steve

[Chops]

Abattoir666, on 14 Jan 2015 - 6:55 PM, said:

Makes sense, but speaking of irregulars (and I apologize for possibly asking something probably answered), will there be an expansion pack adding Donetsk separatists to the Russians, or even Ukrainian militia (the few that there are) to the game?

 

 

Battlefront.com, on 12 Jan 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

We are going to include irregular forces, for both sides, in a future Module. It was simply too much to do all at once.

Steve

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

I look forward to the irregular module for both the "cripple fights" of insurgent on insurgent, and for making the CMBS: 2018 scenarios of trying to police up the mess after the war. 

[Battlefront.com]

Since Aleksandr Aleksandrovich "Batman" Byednov's killing was mentioned before, someone asked about irregular forces, and now someone asked about portraying real war scenarios... I just thought of something. Eeventually we should have the forces in the game which could simulate the infighting between various forces within the LPR and DPR territory. In particular, the engagement which lead to Byednov's death. The actual battle wasn't very interesting from a tactical warfare standpoint (he was ambushed and that was that), but if Byednov's forces had decided to fight it could have been.

For those of you who do not know about the "Private Military Company" under Vagner's command, it's the force that is most directly responsible for purging the LPR of militias (mostly Russian nationals) who refuse to take orders from the LPR leadership. In last two weeks the commanders of two long standing problem militia units were removed ("Batman" killed, "Odessa" detained). This is just the latest and best documented internal fighting I've seen. Byednov has been a high profile problem case for many months now, with the earliest armed conflict I noted (in my journal) dating back to mid October. I am sure it goes back further than that. Probably once Russia removed Girkin and other leadership elements.

Vagner's command consists of what appears to be a company sized force moving around in BPM-97 "Vystrel" (Dozor-N type) and GAZ-3937 "Vodnik" armored trucks with LPR militia in trucks, a few BMPs, and a couple of tanks (I can't make out which models they are). There's several video clips available. Here's one:

I do not know what the state of weaponry was for "Batman" at the time of the attack. I suspect the usual mix of heavy weapons, some BMPs, perhaps a tank or two, and mortars.

Anyway, since a lot of people liked "Red on Red" battles in Shock Force, it is worth pointing out there can eventually be similar scenarios for Black Sea.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I look forward to the irregular module for both the "cripple fights" of insurgent on insurgent, and for making the CMBS: 2018 scenarios of trying to police up the mess after the war.

Heh... I was writing my post while you made yours. I guess your mind went to the same place mine did after reading some of the recent questions!

Steve

[Weer]

As has already been stated, this information is a mix between old information and Russian state sponsored propaganda.

 

So Steve, you statement is... UA Army will gain new gear from the... air?

I see.

How many tanks where upgraded in the past year on Kharcov plant? How many engines for T-64 did they produse?

Or this questions are Putins propaganda too?

As a rule I do not believe *ANY* government spokesperson unless I can verify the information through credible sources.

 

She is not goverment and she is the only source on russian regular KIAs. And those names what she give to public dont even existis.

By your thinking Iraq and Afghanistan should be peaceful places.

 

 

I am not military historian (actualy i am is, but shhh) but i can see the clear difference between assimetrical war and conventional one.

It seems you dont. There is a book called "Why Big Nations Lose Small Wars". Learn it.

 

Edited January 15, 2015 by Weer

[AttorneyAtWar]

What are the goals for the militias who aren't taking orders from the LPR?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Raptorx7

[dan/california]

With my possibly demonic children now asleep I am going to try this again, but coherently

 

This is Terny

 

Terny is a lovely little crossroads town with the potential to become important for all the wrong reasons in our hopefully imaginary little war.  It is a very obvious place to try to flank a defensive  position on the E101, or as a second line of attack in its own right.  The red line across the top of the photo is 4k, just to help with scale.  I have two immediate questions before I really invest some time in this.  Is it already in the game?  It really is a pretty obvious location and I don't want to duplicate a lot of effort.  Does anybody know a way to determine the conditions of that river bank?

[dan/california]

Also can I start on this in Red Thunder and import it?  Someone said its exactly the same trees and so on.

Edited January 15, 2015 by dan/california

[Weer]

great difficulty attracting the number of contract soldiers that it is looking for

 

We allready have more then half professionals.

Conscript system is the part of our defence doctrine, so it will not be canseled. And in my mind it is good.

[ikalugin]

What are the goals for the militias who aren't taking orders from the LPR?

To keep their independence (from Russian Goverment) for ideological reasons (some view Russian policy in Ukraine as not pro active enough) and/or private interests (keeping power/influence).

Steven, would it be of interest If I provide research results regarding current and probable future status of Ukrainian forces, properly referenced and all? (Well maybe not quite to strict standards of high academia, but I could get it there if need be and would certainly try to peer review it first).

In any case I would look into building up on said research to write up a scenario, quite possibly together with truly glorious design of crocodile.

Edited January 15, 2015 by ikalugin

[Weer]

I bet the average Ukrainian conscript is far more motivated to fight against a Russian invasion than a Russian conscript is motivated to fight in Ukraine.

 

 

You lose.

Sorry.

[AttorneyAtWar]

It seems you dont. There is a book called "Why Big Nations Lose Small Wars". Learn it.

 

 

Putin's probably going to need that one pretty soon.

[Weer]

Putin don't want to invade someone. How many countries were occupied by russian troops in past 25 years? None.

[Battlefront.com]

So Steve, you statement is... UA Army will gain new gear from the... air?

You are a new poster so I am going to give you this unofficial warning. If you continue to adopt a voluntary attitude of disrespect and hostile postings, you will be banned from this Forum. What is acceptable behavior on other Forums is generally not acceptable here.

 

How many tanks where upgraded in the past year on Kharcov plant? How many engines for T-64 did they produse?

I'll turn the question around to you. How many do you think they have produced? It seems from your previous comments you think the number is 0. Which means the factories are doing nothing. That is a very difficult position to believe.

Since you are so convinced that they are NOT producing ANYTHING, you must know something I do not. Please provide your sources that Ukraine has not been repairing and restoring vehicles into service. You can start by citing your sources that shows that the 2S7 'Pion' I have seen in many reports, and pictures, are not in service.

 

I am not military historian (actualy i am is, but shhh) but i can see the clear difference between assimetrical war and conventional one.

It seems you dont. There is a book called "Why Big Nations Lose Small Wars". Learn it.

 

I am very, very well aware of why Iraq and Afghanistan have not gone well. But you missed my point. You made a statement that equates military spending with military capability. This is a false argument. I heard a similar argument about the Iraqi military's supposed strength ahead of the Gulf War 1. "They spend x amount, they have y tanks... it is going to be a blood bath for America". Obviously it was not.

Since you wish to use military spending as an indication of military capability, then what do you make of this?

Using your logic, Russia had better not get into a war with the US, not to mention the US and NATO. Because using your logic, it is rather obvious that Russia would be crushed. Even France could fight Russia to a draw, again based on your argument.

 

We allready have more then half professionals.

Conscript system is the part of our defence doctrine, so it will not be canseled. And in my mind it is good.

 

So why is Russia accepting non-Russians into its military? There must be a reason for this decision, yes? 

 

You lose.

Sorry.

If you don't want to even try to challenge a statement, do not bother to reply with something this childish.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Putin don't want to invade someone. How many countries were occupied by russian troops in past 25 years? None.

I think the Moldovan parliament would strongly disagree with this statement. Russian forces have been in place in Transnistria without consent and are supposed to be gone now as per agreement with Russia. Forgetting about the previous agreements that the Duma did not ratify, Putin did sign it into law that Russia would withdraw. The Moldovan government has repeatedly asked Russia to remove it's so-called 'peace keepers' and yet they are still there.

By most reasonable standards this is "occupation".

Steve

[Weer]

What is acceptable behavior on other Forums is generally not acceptable here.

 

Yeah sorry.

But i crushed my chear when i saw you answer and my reaction was uncontrolled.

I'll turn the question around to you. How many do you think they have produced? It seems from your previous comments you think the number is 0.

 

Nope.

Something like 70 in total with the old versions of T-64 form the "stockpiles".

That is a very difficult position to believe.

 

Thats's what i think about your position.

They dont have money for that. Kharcovs plant arealmost dead all its good engeneirs are reataired are long ago coz they have no payment for they work during 2000s.

UA need at least 5 year to rebuild its military industry, but they can do it only if they will have a realy huge money bag. Thats simple.

Please provide your sources that Ukraine has not been repairing and restoring vehicles into service.

 

I never said something like that.

All i said what they didnt do it in right numbers ever for they CTO. And as Kalugin said they dont only need good stuff, they need motivated and trained professionals with at least 6 month training. Current UA consripts have only 3.

You can start by citing your sources that shows that the 2S7 'Pion' I have seen in many reports, and pictures, are not in service.

 

The fun thing what UA  president said what they catualy produse them. lol

Using your logic, Russia had better not get into a war with the US, not to mention the US and NATO. Even France could fight Russia to a draw, again based on your argument.

 

And that is true.

Russia cant won all out WW2 style war against NATO and even US. US just have more cannon folder.

So why is Russia accepting non-Russians into its military? There must be a reason for this decision, yes? 

 

To have more proffesioanls.

Like it happend in US. In France. In UK.

Thats normal for the modern world.

If you don't want to even try to challenge a statement, do not bother to reply with something this childish.

 

I have many friend in Ukraine. One of them from Crimea, some from Kharov and one from Kiev. I know what they are thinking about.

Some of them hate Putin but all of them hate Poroshenko due to total idiotism of his goverment.

 

[Weer]

so-called 'peace keepers'

 

And what so-called "UN" thinks about that?