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Strategic and tactical realities in CMBS


H1nd

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I will just leave it here. Hope Steve will find it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VXyzA7xL1k

Ah, and into the propaganda war we go.

Non Ukrainian fighting for Ukraine = mercenary

Non Ukrainian fighting for separatists = volunteer

Russian military personnel fighting for separatists = tourist

The whole thing about the "Polish mercenary" crap is that this has been going on since the Spring. Pro-separatists and Putinbots have been saying that there are large numbers of foreign mercenaries fighting for Ukraine. Including Blackwater and Polish mercenaries. At times I even saw people claiming that American forces were fighting in Ukraine (the evidence was some guy speaking English as a 2nd language). I have a very low threshold for this sort of distortion of reality because they are a DELIBERATE attempt to distract from what Russia is in fact doing.

Yes, there are definitely individuals fighting for Ukraine who are not Ukrainian citizens. They come from a large number of countries, including Russia, Georgia, and Belarus. In total it is probably not more than 100. They are there fighting on behalf of the legal government of the terrain being fought over. This is *NOT* a secret.

Compare this to the probable 10,000+ Russians who have illegally fought on Ukrainian soil since this war began. Chechens and Serbs were even in Crimea days after Russian Army and Navy forces invaded. Add to this a similar number of "exotic" fighters as Ukraine (i.e. c.100) coming from places such as Serbia, France, Spain, Hungary, and IIRC some from Italy.

So please, tell me why it is important for you to draw attention to a single Polish citizen? Why does it matter to you so much?

Steve

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Steve,

- I don't touch Ground Forces deployment in the north, north-west, far east or abroad.

- I have 2 VDV brigades plus an army grouping from the Central MD in reserve (those are combat capable troops only).

- I have all reserve units in reserve, or for rapid redeployment of the troops from other theatres (this is practised every so often on the lines of US REFORGER of cold war years).

 

As to the Southern MD - there is no reason to keep large forces there (except reinforcing Internal Troops presence and leaving the troops that are stationed in near abroad), with exception of maybe moving some of the strategic reserve forces into it, so that they are closer to the theatre of actions - Ukraine.

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Steve,

- I don't touch Ground Forces deployment in the north, north-west, far east or abroad.

- I have 2 VDV brigades plus an army grouping from the Central MD in reserve (those are combat capable troops only).

- I have all reserve units in reserve, or for rapid redeployment of the troops from other theatres (this is practised every so often on the lines of US REFORGER of cold war years).

Yup, that makes sense.

 

As to the Southern MD - there is no reason to keep large forces there (except reinforcing Internal Troops presence and leaving the troops that are stationed in near abroad), with exception of maybe moving some of the strategic reserve forces into it, so that they are closer to the theatre of actions - Ukraine.

Again, I am unsure about how this combines with Russian politics. Sometimes "makes no sense" to us makes a lot of sense to someone else.

Steve

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Greetings from Finland, this is my first post to this forum.

Welcome! Since you are Finnish we will expect great things from you and your toothpicks!

 

Thank you for all the participants in this topic, it has been a fun and very informative subject to read. I'm eagerly waiting for the CMBS to be released. I even bought new computer to play the game.

No one can argue with your dedication. Not that smart people would argue with a Finn anyway :D

 

As beign aging reservist by myself, I would love to see some reserve, Category B or C units in the game. No matter what conflict would it be, real or fictional, all the sides would use and deploy similar units to the operational area to hold the ground and occupy area, to free better units to more critical tasks. And when or if the conflict escaletes to "worst case scenario", these troops would be used to direct combat tasks (like German Volkssturm in Seelow heights in 1945) to fullfill the gaps and lack of more suitable infantry combat units.

 

Ukraine has it's national guard activated last year and Russia has long history of deploying and arming pro-russian militias in occupied territories (like all major military powers have done in most of the large scale armed conflicts over the past decades and centuries). Seeing catergory B or C units in CMBS with simplified OOB, older and/or lighter equipment and more modest soft factors would be a fresh experience.  B)

I agree with you. I like having elite vs. elite battles too, but I prefer more 'normal' combat. When we made CMBB I often played as Hungarians or Romanians instead of the Germans. And if I wanted to win, I played as the Finns ;)

 

Ps. While our nicknames are quite similar, I hope all of you won't confuse me and member "Weer" with each other.

Not to worry. You are Finnish, he is not. It is impossible to be confused about that!

Steve

P.S. as you might suspect, Finns have a special place in the hearts of old Forum members like me. You're crazy and humorous people, which is an enjoyable combination!

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Ukraine has it's national guard activated last year

 

 

Just to be clear - Ukranian "National Guard" is just a new name for their old Interior Troops (aka VV - much like those that are deployed by Russia and othre FSU states). It is not some kind of a new militia/reserve formation, but just a new name for the organized units that have already existed for many years...

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Just to be clear - Ukranian "National Guard" is just a new name for their old Interior Troops (aka VV - much like those that are deployed by Russia and othre FSU states). It is not some kind of a new militia/reserve formation, but just a new name for the organized units that have already existed for many years...

Partially this is true, however a number of new volunteer units operate within the National Guard structure.

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Partially this is true, however a number of new volunteer units operate within the National Guard structure.

 

There are indeed two battallions that have been maid up of Maidan protesters/militants as a part of National Guard. Other than that though, it's exactly the same structure as the old Interior (aka Internal) Troops, just a different name...

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There are indeed two battallions that have been maid up of Maidan protesters/militants as a part of National Guard. Other than that though, it's exactly the same structure as the old Interior (aka Internal) Troops, just a different name...

Even the newly formed National Guard brigades?

 

While I don't challenge the notion that the core of National Guard did come from the Interior troops, I think it is safe to say that expensive expansion/reorganisation has been conducted thus it is not correct to say (in my opinion) that they have the exactly the same structure.

Edited by ikalugin
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Even the newly formed National Guard brigades?

 

I am not sure I know what you mean. There are plenty of newly formed units in Ukraine (i.e. territorial battalions, OUN, Right Sector, etc); but I am not aware of the National Guard (aka Interior Troops) structure changing all that much. Do you happen to have an example of what you are refering to?

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I am not sure I know what you mean. There are plenty of newly formed units in Ukraine (i.e. territorial battalions, OUN, Right Sector, etc); but I am not aware of the National Guard (aka Interior Troops) structure changing all that much. Do you happen to have an example of what you are refering to?

The new National Guard brigade, for example the one currently stationed in Mariople.

 

Also, Azov now is a regiment I heard.

Edited by ikalugin
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The new National Guard brigade, for example the one currently stationed in Mariople.

 

Also, Azov now is a regiment I heard.

 

The new National Guard brigade, for example the one currently stationed in Mariople.

 

Also, Azov now is a regiment I heard.

 

Right, I get what you mean now. I honestly don't know if the National Guard brigade in Maiople is a "new" or "old" Internal Troops formation. As for Azov, Donbass, Aidar and other "voulenteer battalions" their status is very confusing. I don't belive that they are considered to be a part of National Guard, even though they still fall under the MVD command. Some other "territorial" battalions are under the MOD command... and then you have formations like the Right Sector and OUN battallions that seem to have no legal status or higher command whatsoever...

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Right, I get what you mean now. I honestly don't know if the National Guard brigade in Maiople is a "new" or "old" Internal Troops formation. As for Azov, Donbass, Aidar and other "voulenteer battalions" their status is very confusing. I don't belive that they are considered to be a part of National Guard, even though they still fall under the MVD command. Some other "territorial" battalions are under the MOD command... and then you have formations like the Right Sector and OUN battallions that seem to have no legal status or higher command whatsoever...

I think the simplified version of this (I did not yet look into the National Guard properly, so this is subject to further research) is:

- there are various volunteer type formations.

- there were the regular National Guard regiments/battalions which came from the old Internal troops (if not structure wise, then manpower pool wise).

- there is a new brigade? brigades? that were formed during this conflict to better suit the needs of Ukraine in it.

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So please, tell me why it is important for you to draw attention to a single Polish citizen?

 

Have you seens flag scene?  

Probably there are more then one polak where in this video.

I was speaking of only military forces.

 

27K are the internal troops only. They numbered separatly from the army and they are not part of the army's 800k.

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Have you seens flag scene?  

Probably there are more then one polak where in this video.

 

Polak?  Is there some different expression in Russia for Poles or is that the same derogatory slang you would hear in the US only spelled different.

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Thats how we call lads from Poland. And as far as i know they do it so too.

Interesting. It is listed on wiki as the polish noun for a person of polish descent, but in English it is a derogatory term for a person of polish descent. Very confusing world.

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Raptorx7,

 

Ref the vid in your #53, any idea why we're seeing what looks like tracer on a D-30 shell? I can understand tracer on the 100 mm, since that's got to be the MT/T-12 , based on video I presented elsewhere. It's kind of bizarre watching miniature meteors, not small caliber tracer, on low trajectories hurtling through the sky. I think a little ECM would work wonders in eviscerating the very simple, yet apparently intimate (talks to the gun battery CO by first name) and effective CO as FO to gun connection where the CO in a skyscraper of some sort is, seemingly even without a map, running what appears to be an effective, responsive shoot.

 

ikalugin,

 

That voting chart has to be one of the busiest and most lurid piece of graphics ever. Would say more, but it shorted out my brain!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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Rusknight,

 

Ref your mention that NATO's formation preceded that of the Warsaw Pact, but I believe you're straining over de jure at the expense of de facto. The reality is, as explained here in the Library of Congress/Federal Research Service Appendix C from the Area Handbook on Czechoslovakia, Russia had full control of the military forces, whose governments eventually became members of the Warsaw Pact, no later than the conclusion of the GPW, and in multiple cases, several years prior. As such, the actual official formation and announcement of the Warsaw Pact was a propaganda exercise and had nothing to do with long existing military and political realities.

 

Weer,

 

Ref you #53, I think you misunderstood what was being said. When the block quote said "the former satellites are more than happy to help out, that was in reference to supplying artillery ammunition, not tanks.

 

ikalugin,

 

I was referring to that big chart of how various parts of Ukraine voted in 2010, I believe it was. 

 

H1nd,

 

What a tremendous piece of work you've put together! It occurs to my twisted mind that the BM-30 Smerch launchers would, in game terms at a much lower scale, occupy, relatively speaking, the same importance niche as was assigned during the Cold War to GLCMs and Pershings at higher levels and Lance and nuke capable artillery at lower levels. As such, they would be prime candidates for the attentions of Spetsnaz FSB/FSB Spetsnaz. This has many fascinating gaming possibilities, not least of which is small high tech forces operating on large--very large maps as the Spetsnaz teams seek to find and mark in some manner (multiple possibilities there) or directly assault stand-ins for the vital Ukrainian MRLs, whose Bazalt SFWs (or the Ukrainian equivalent) could cause enormous damage and disruption to Russian armor, SP artillery and, of course, Russian BM-30 Smerch systems. Similarly, I can easily envision actions involving Air Assault and VDV units seeking to seize and hold various critical objectives. Evil (okay, inspired) scenario designers could come up with all sorts of easy to get into (minimal setup effort), mayhem laden scenarios. Unfortunately, for the Ukrainians, the two best weapons against Spetsnaz aren't in the game: military dogs and heavy duty security lighting. Perhaps the generous Americans would be willing to supply guard geese, but I suspect that'll take a bit of waiting, as far as being in the game--likely before horses but after bicycles. Speaking of light vehicles, I think it would be a good idea to think about having motorcycles and ATVs in the game. This would open many (Chinese style) interesting possibilities, such as depicting the insertion of SpecOps on same, messengers in ECM or EMCON and many more.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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Weer,

 

Your #253 to the effect the Ukrainians, based on history, will cooperate with occupation forces has holes in it big enough to drive a Tank Army through. If you are referencing what happened when Germany invaded, that was because the sovereign nation of Ukraine had been gobbled up by Russia and was most unhappy about it. But contrast that with Russian experience against Ukrainian partisans. The antiCommunist UPA fought bitterly until 1956, in the face of not only enormous Russian military and paramilitary resources committed against it, but also comprehensive efforts to identify and neutralize any and all efforts to support the UPA, not to mention killing off any leaders or potential leaders overseas.  Western covert ops to assist the UPA were compromised from the get by Russian agent in place Kim Philby, who very nearly wound up heading the SIS/MI6. 

On balance, I consider the notion that the Ukrainians will cooperate in the event of an overt, large scale Russian invasion to be risible. At best. I think the Russian Army would find itself in a terrible fix from highly motivated Ukrainian partisans who would quite likely be getting all sorts of support and advice from, shall we say, neighbors who don't want Russians visiting?

 

Were this invasion to occur, I'd fully expect SpecOps units from Poland and other NATO members, including US and UK, to enter the fray, creating all sorts of Russian nightmares in so doing. When your ammo dumps and POL storage explode, your CPs are obliterated, your MRLs and tanks are booby trapped and blow up when started, roads mined (directly or by EFP off route devices), key officers kidnapped or killed, bridges blown, supply columns waylaid, your invasion rapidly turns into chaos.

 

When weapons such as Javelin are in play, it becomes quite feasible to deliver punishing blows, with only minor effort. What happens, for example, if the partisans and their chums start zapping ACRVs (beheading the artillery battalions and higher)? What happens if they identify and kill the CP vehicles for the SAM units? What if they do something similar to the division and brigade CP vehicles? How long before the wheels start coming off your war trolley? The Russian Army is highly vulnerable to such tactics because it has much smaller combat staffs, causing casualties to have a much more pronounced effect than would otherwise be the case. And who else becomes a casualty if, say, the brigade CO's command track is hit? How about the guys who handle his air support, fire support, comms, REC and logistics? In one swoop!  Oh, sure, there's a rear CP, but we all know how important the almighty Big Brain and his electronic auxiliary brains are to the scheme of things, not to mention the Rear CP is even more likely to come to grief by SBUs (Stay Behind Units) than the forces on the sharp end of the attack. The fun to be had with sniper rifles against delicate electronic equipment beggars description. A single bullet can disable a million dollar radar, for example. And there aren't many of them, either. Here is the equipment breakdown and organization for an S-400 Triumf battery. Radar hates bullets, especially explosive ones, but missiles even more so. If one in the launch tube catches fire or explodes, the others will soon follow. Those tubes aren't armored, either. API will get through no sweat. And if it's Raufoss, expect instant fireworks.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

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John, MRLs would be one of the primary targets for:

- Recon/strike and recon/fire complexes.

- Forward detachments.

 

As special forces on foot may not be exactly mobile enough to follow the all terrain MRL batteries. (they may still conduct ambushes and what not).

 

If we expect that the Ukrainian units are forward fixed and bypassed (via injection of the afore mentioned Forward detachments) then the rear area stuff (such as the MRLs or long range artillery pieces) would be under a very serious threat from those detachments, especially considering how those are able to over power the security details of those rear area groupings (which would be probably not as simple for lightly armed SFs).

 

  While the insurgency (supported or not) is a possible dimension to the occupation phase, it appears that Ukrainian population in the region is fairly passive (a small proportion of population actually joined either side with arms), even considering the current informational mobilisation for the war. Certainly they lack the blood vengence mind set the people of Caucasus exhibit, nor do they have a tight clan based system. I think that should the local security forces come from the local population (trained and equipped by Russia) and should other such reasonable policies be followed - the area should be fairly calm.

  Morever, if there is no immediate risk of escalation/war continuation, I would move the front line forces back to Russia, possibly with creating a number of military bases with minimal Russian presence in them, with the ex separatist forces (probably with the influx of ex Ukrainian citizens from Crimea, ex Berkut people and so on) providing security against external and internal foes. Considering that the Ukrainian Armed Forces and CTO Forces are assumed to be defeated mostly east of Dnepr those security forces would deal mostly with the internal security stuff, which they should have sufficient strength to do (especially if trained and equipped properly).

 

That all would happen after the mobile phase and is not quite a part of the scenario I am working on, so I am not sure if I should really focus on that (even though I guess it could be an interesting area to mine for more missions).

Edited by ikalugin
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sovereign nation of Ukraine

 

Sorry but i stop reading on this part.

Ukraine never existed as country before 1919 when Lenin decalare it. Thats is very hard question and i will discuss it only on my native coz i dont know english that good.

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