What exactly is the hide command

[stealthsilent1]

What does it mean when a unit is in a building or is in a dense Forrest? If I put a unit there, how much of their body is sticking out and how much is hidden from view? If I put a unit in a building, do they stick their whole upper torso and head to look outside? Or do they use just the very side of their face to look outside? And what happens when you're in a bush in the thick forest? If you're in a thick bush where you can't see through it? Does the character move to the side of the bush and look or does he part the bush to make a little hole and see through that? And what happens exactly when you put the hide command on them? If a unit is in a building does he drop to the floor and curl up into a ball and that's called hiding? And if he does that, what's the point of him still taking chances to look? He is looking at the wall? He isn't even looking at the stairwell in case someone comes in. Also if the unit is hiding in a bush, how exactly does he hide? What does that command do? Does he just stay in the same spot and put his face to the floor? Or does he move to the center of the bush if he is on the edge? How do you simulate the hide command? Since the game uses real models for projectile motion, what does the hide command exactly do? Does it just add a modifier so that it's hard to be seen and hard to see when you're placing it? Because when I'm hiding, I like to hide with my whole body exposed, but look out once in a while to know what no one is coming, just peek my body out, just enough, to look out. And when I'm not hiding, I don't stick my whole body out, I just stick as much as I need to, to see. And what exactly is the hide command? I know you don't want to tell the exact programs and how they work because people will add those to their strategy, but you got to tell us something, or change something, so that we understand what exactly is the hide command. How they are hiding behind stuff, and how they use cover.

I think the one flaw of this game, as far as camera controls go, is the inability to know how to do good stealth. To peek the body out just enough so you can get a good view, and it's hard to see you. The camera controls should go down to the infantary's REAL eye level, not an appropriate eye level. The eye level of standing, crouching, and prone infantary, when on the ground, and in buildings. And for tanks and alll vehicles. That would make the game easier to use. So you know what's going on more.

[dan/california]

The hide command means they aren't trying to anything else.  Get all the way down in the lowest spot you can find and hug dirt.  Maybe have one guy peek, Barely, a little bit, maybe.  This reduces spotting, a LOT.  It also more or less amounts to hold fire command outside of some specific circumstaces. 

[harrypotterLLC]

Yea, but that still doesn't make any sense. What if you are in a bush, and you press the hide command, you can't go any lower into the ground, you're already flat against it. Why does your spotting ability diminish, it's stupid. Also, if you're in a building, and you're hiding, OK. You hide behind the wall, but when you peek, and glance, at least make it so that they peek outside the window, and not just, move thier heads up from the fetal position, it makes no sense. What's the point of looking, while hiding, if you're not really looking out to see if anyone is there. Just occasionally. 

[MikeyD]

I recall someone commenting recently that in a *recent war* (ahem) enemy forced were suspicious from bodies they recovered that our troops were executing soldiers because of the large number of head shots. They weren't, it was simply that the head was often the only aim point available, the rest was well behind cover. 'Hide' means you're trying to make yourself one with the dirt. No lifting your head and peering around. No moving, no nothing.

[harrypotterLLC]

I recall someone commenting recently that in a *recent war* (ahem) enemy forced were suspicious from bodies they recovered that our troops were executing soldiers because of the large number of head shots. They weren't, it was simply that the head was often the only aim point available, the rest was well behind cover. 'Hide' means you're trying to make yourself one with the dirt. No lifting your head and peering around. No moving, no nothing.

No they did that in every war, ever. Just pretend you're dead. They shoot a couple of guys, then you pounce. Yea, but that depends on the situation, if you know there are dead bodies around, you just act like a dead body, but if there ARE no dead bodies around, then, what are you going to do when they find you, just laying down all still? I mean, what's the difference between the hide command, and regular troops going behind cover. Aren't you trying to hide in cover anyway? And is there a point to the hide command if your units don't know what the hell is going on around them, sure you can use a scout from far away, and hide everyone else. But that's a strategy question. 

 

Ok, so you say no peering around, no moving and no nothing. But then why does it show up on your hiding troops, that they are sometimes spotting and sometimes hiding, I think, my side of the argument makes much more sense. Hide as much as possible, but when you can, look out to see what's around you. Unless instructed otherwise. And that's the thing. If regularly, you tell your troops to find cover, aren't they hiding anyway? And what's the difference between finding cover, and hiding in the first place? Why is it that, when you put your troops to hide, that they are harder to spot? If you're in a bush, and you're not in the hide command, and then you put the hide command, why is it suddenly harder to spot you now that you've just put your head to the ground. You weren't moving before, you were facing a direction, and (let's assume the arc function is activated.) you're not firing either. I get that in hedgerows, hiding means going back into the hedgerow and not sticking out to see who's there. That makes sense. And in buildings, I can see that hiding means you don't stick your head out at all, but that's wrong for two reasons. The first reason is that when you're in a bush, you're already technically hidden, since you're taking cover behind the bush, and putting the hide command just means that you're putting your head down. That's one problem, but the second problem is that, why do your units, when set in the hide command, keep flashing from hiding, to spotting? If they are hiding, and spotting, then they should be well behind cover, and every 30 seconds or so, just peep their heads out for a second or two to see who's there.

 

I think it just makes much more sense to make the troops hide, and put their body behind any cover(when I say cover, I mean anything hiding their bodies), and peep out once in a while. That just makes much much more sense. I mean look at the sniper's job, outside of the game. His whole job is to get somewhere, dress up as a bush, and just lie there looking at people. That's technically the hide command. But why do you got to have your head down to hide? What i mean is that, when you're prone, what's the difference if you've got your head in the dirt, or your head tilted to see in front of you, in both cases, you're still not moving. There is no difference. 

[MikeyD]

Its been ages since I looked at this, but lets remember there are degrees of experience. Green troops have the discipline of schoolchildren. Its as tough to keep them well hidden as it is to keep them in the battle. Elite forces, by contrast, are like that Predator movie monster. When they hide they HIDE. At least the last time I looked. 

[harrypotterLLC]

Its been ages since I looked at this, but lets remember there are degrees of experience. Green troops have the discipline of schoolchildren. Its as tough to keep them well hidden as it is to keep them in the battle. Elite forces, by contrast, are like that Predator movie monster. When they hide they HIDE. At least the last time I looked. 

Yea, whenever I played cmbn, I could was never good enough to command green troops, they just sucked and They always routed on me. That's why I always used elite forces. It was just easier. But now, I think I can handle green, maybe a little more than before. 

 

Yea, but that's unrelated to what I'm saying. I"m not saying, how much balls do they have, and if they can stay hidden or not, and how much do they jitter and are scared when there is someone next to them. (maybe it does relate a bit) But What I'm saying is the nature of how they hide and how they take cover. And what happens when one of my men is behind something. In this case, a bush. 

[domfluff]

The following might be tangential, but shrug. In terms of actual usage hide is useful for a number of things, but it's a little counter intuitive. In open ground, it makes the pixeltruppen hit the dirt immediately, which can be very useful, and similarly it keeps their heads down in foxholes and trenches, which reduces mortar casualties significantly. Hiding troops will pop up to spot a little, but mostly they keep themselves down and therefore out of line of sight, as much as possible.

In terms of laying ambushes, you're usually better hiding with the majority of your force, but leaving a scout or sniper team (possibly at range) unhidden, even if these have a restrictive firing arc so they won't give away their position. These scouts can spot the enemy, and then you can unhide your forces to enact aggression upon whomever you wish.

I've long thought that a combination of Hide + Target arc might be good for an "ambush" command, if the logic worked that way - they will break hide if they feel they really need to, but if this was how they treated this combination of orders that would seem sensible to me. 

In any case, small units of stationary infantry in cover are usually pretty hard to see, just relying on target arcs - so Hide is usually not necessary unless you're trying to avoid being shelled.

Edited January 6, 2015 by domfluff

[stealthsilent1]

Its been ages since I looked at this, but lets remember there are degrees of experience. Green troops have the discipline of schoolchildren. Its as tough to keep them well hidden as it is to keep them in the battle. Elite forces, by contrast, are like that Predator movie monster. When they hide they HIDE. At least the last time I looked. 

wait, does that mean that the hide function isn't just getting low to the ground behind something? Like they put a bunch of leaves on themselves and stuff like that? Harry is right on that point, like I'm saying. What does it mean to hide?

[stealthsilent1]

The following might be tangential, but shrug. In terms of actual usage hide is useful for a number of things, but it's a little counter intuitive. In open ground, it makes the pixeltruppen hit the dirt immediately, which can be very useful, and similarly it keeps their heads down in foxholes and trenches, which reduces mortar casualties significantly. Hiding troops will pop up to spot a little, but mostly they keep themselves down and therefore out of line of sight, as much as possible.

In terms of laying ambushes, you're usually better hiding with the majority of your force, but leaving a scout or sniper team (possibly at range) unhidden, even if these have a restrictive firing arc so they won't give away their position. These scouts can spot the enemy, and then you can unhide your forces to enact aggression upon whomever you wish.

I've long thought that a combination of Hide + Target arc might be good for an "ambush" command, if the logic worked that way - they will break hide if they feel they really need to, but if this was how they treated this combination of orders that would seem sensible to me. 

In any case, small units of stationary infantry in cover are usually pretty hard to see, just relying on target arcs - so Hide is usually not necessary unless you're trying to avoid being shelled.

Ok so to hide on open ground is a bad idea, you're just a sitting duck, you need something to hide behind, that's like if the open ground is bushy, then it's a good idea to prone on the ground, but if you're in a parking lot. It would be stupid to just stay there where everyone can see you and shoot you.

Ok I agree with the hiding in foxholes because of artillery. That just makes you go deeper into the hole, but when they look out. How are they looking? Moving up to see past the dirt? Or are they just looking at the dirt?

Yea and I agree with the ambush thing you said, that's true, but you still didn't adress what the post was about. What's the difference between just laying down in a bush, and hiding behind a bush? Also when they peek and spot, I think they should actually look above, or in between, or whatever they are hiding in, and look at the opponent.

I think how it should be modeled is that when you put your troops behind something, they find a place which they could cover most of their body in, and just a fraction of their body would be out to shoot the guys. And if they are hiding behind a solid object, they would look above or to the side of the object to see the opponent. And if it's a bush they are hiding in, how I would hide in a light bush, is I would go as low as possible and look through the open parts. And if it's a thick bush, I would poke little holes in the bush where I can see them, but it's almost impossible for them to see me. So the hide command doesnt work with bushes. I mean with hedgerows it's easy, just get all the way behind the hedge, and part the hedge a fraction, everytime I wanted to look at my opponent.

[Baneman]

Hide ( in game terms/effects ) means that the unit will lie flat. One ( or sometimes 2 ) guys will look around occasionally ( hence the occasional guy "Spotting" ).

Overall spotting for the team is severely degraded.

 

This is good - as mentioned - for sitting out artillery barrages and otherwise keeping a lot of your guys unspotted by the enemy.

 

Troops not on HIDE may well be lying flat, but they will all be Spotting ie. head up at least. On less than flat ground, they will often "take a knee".

Edited January 6, 2015 by Baneman

[stealthsilent1]

Hide ( in game terms/effects ) means that the unit will lie flat. One ( or sometimes 2 ) guys will look around occasionally ( hence the occasional guy "Spotting" ).

Overall spotting for the team is severely degraded.

 

This is good - as mentioned - for sitting out artillery barrages and otherwise keeping a lot of your guys unspotted by the enemy.

 

Troops not on HIDE may well be lying flat, but they will all be Spotting ie. head up at least. On less than flat ground, they will often "take a knee".

Ok let's assume that the ground is flat and you're behind a bush, prone. What does it matter if you're hiding or not, your head 6 inches above the ground is really small, I don't think it really matters. Also, everyone spots once in a while, not just two guys.

[domfluff]

Well, hide will make them *stay* prone, and the spotting is done by one or two guys at a time, whilst the rest keep their heads down.

[stealthsilent1]

Ok I understand that looking for 2 seconds at a time is not as good as always looking, yea, but it's not to the point where the guys can't see what's directly in front of them. Also, if what you're saying is true and the guys put their faces in the mud, for some reason, instead of looking forward, why can't they look to the sides, where their flank is. If they aren't looking forward, they must at least look to their sides. But the hide command makes them as if they were blind.

But what if they are in a bush, you can't hide more than you're already hiding if you're in a bush, for this example I'm talking about a light bush, think of a desert bush. It's got little dead twigs sticking out and you can kinda see through it, even when you're prone. See how can you hide, when you're already hiding?

[stealthsilent1]

Well, hide will make them *stay* prone, and the spotting is done by one or two guys at a time, whilst the rest keep their heads down.

ok so

Not hiding(in a building): all men are at the windows and looking forward

Hiding(in a building): all men are prone, but 2 men at a time are occasional looking through the windows

I mean, let's say they are 50% as effective as a two man scout team in a building, they should still see people, seeing no one doesn't make any sense.

Yea but that example doesn't work when you're in the bush, what are you doing when it says "hiding?" Are you intentionally looking at the dirt? And when it blinks back to "spotting," do they move their faces from the dirt to right I front of them, it doesn't make any sense.

[George MC]

Off course in modern combat thermal sights negate hiding behind bushes/foliage...

[stealthsilent1]

Hiding(in a building): all men are prone, but 2 men at a time are occasional looking through the windows

That's assuming that they do look out the windows, and don't just lay on the ground of the building, occasionally looking at the walls.

I think the game does not simulate this at all, since it uses 3d models to accurately represent projectile motions, I think that the hiding command is directly related to how and where the 3d models are in the game, if the soldier is in a bush, then there is some sort of modifeier that tells the opponent not to see him, and if he is hiding, there is a bonus modifier to his invisibility. So if a soldier is at a window, he is not hiding himself as much as possible, he is just standing clear in front of the window for everyone to see. Okay, that makes more sense. You see if we knew what they game was really about then we would be able to make better strategies.

[stealthsilent1]

Off course in modern combat thermal sights negate hiding behind bushes/foliage...

even though, that's not answering the question. You're just finding a way to go around the question, and what's really happening in the game. Personally, I like to know how the game works, so I could use that to my advantage.

[George MC]

even though, that's not answering the question. You're just finding a way to go around the question, and what's really happening in the game. Personally, I like to know how the game works, so I could use that to my advantage.

Nope. I'm pointing out hiding in bushes/woods/forests is not as effective in modern combat as you might think due to the prevalence of thermal imaging devices.

 

The 'hide' command in CM means the unit keeps their heads down - although at odd occasions someone in the unit will pop their head up for a quick look. It comes at the cost of situational awareness.

 

TBH I hardly use it as it can often backfire on you due to the loss of situational awareness. I prefer target arcs. BTW the manual explains all this in detail.

[Baneman]

Ok let's assume that the ground is flat and you're behind a bush, prone. What does it matter if you're hiding or not, your head 6 inches above the ground is really small, I don't think it really matters. Also, everyone spots once in a while, not just two guys.

 

Considering that the trajectory of every round is tracked in game, yes, 6 inches matters.

 

And it seems that you're confusing the game with reality. In reality, yes, it's possible that someone hiding can still see a particular area. In game, the guys HIDEing are looking at the mud. The occasional guy(s) SPOTTING may not see anything because spotting runs in cycles and the moment they're looking may not coincide with the spotting cycle. ( note - this is only an educated guess ).

 

I don't pretend to understand it, but there are game limitations and so things may be a bit more black-and-white wrt seeing and not seeing than reality where there's a lot more wiggle-room.

[stealthsilent1]

Nope. I'm pointing out hiding in bushes/woods/forests is not as effective in modern combat as you might think due to the prevalence of thermal imaging devices.

The 'hide' command in CM means the unit keeps their heads down - although at odd occasions someone in the unit will pop their head up for a quick look. It comes at the cost of situational awareness.

TBH I hardly use it as it can often backfire on you due to the loss of situational awareness. I prefer target arcs. BTW the manual explains all this in detail.

Which manual?

And I'm not talking about the time period of what you can use and what you can't, I'm talking about what's modeled in the game. Maybe in the future we will have super X-ray scopes that can make you see through building walls, does that mean that you don't have to understand how to hide in buildings, no. Forget the modern setting, let's call it cmbn, it really doesn't matter. But what is modeled in this game?

Also, I always use target arcs when I'm hiding

Edited January 6, 2015 by stealthsilent1

[stealthsilent1]

Considering that the trajectory of every round is tracked in game, yes, 6 inches matters.

 

And it seems that you're confusing the game with reality. In reality, yes, it's possible that someone hiding can still see a particular area. In game, the guys HIDEing are looking at the mud. The occasional guy(s) SPOTTING may not see anything because spotting runs in cycles and the moment they're looking may not coincide with the spotting cycle. ( note - this is only an educated guess ).

 

I don't pretend to understand it, but there are game limitations and so things may be a bit more black-and-white wrt seeing and not seeing than reality where there's a lot more wiggle-room.

Well that's my whole point, change it so that they aren't looking at the mud, that's stupid.

[stealthsilent1]

Also, I don't remember, but I think lying all the way on the ground looking forward, you could still see through the bush. But this game is cheap if it doesn't simulate that, I mean, what's the point of looking from your hiding place if you aren't looking at all?

[womble]

In the end, it doesn't matter one jot or tittle what "Hide" actually translates to in terms of troop activity "in real life". Unless you're trying to point a finger and say "Not a perfect simulation! Rubbissshhhhh!"

What matters is that the unit will go prone, for whatever benefit the situation offeres, the spotting of the unit is degraded and that its ability to remain unseen is improved if it wasn't being observed when it Hid, or if its new, fixed, low posture puts it behind 100% concealment. It's about the "tactical posture" of the unit. If they're told to Hide, then that's their priority, and what they actually do on a micro level, beyond the scale of the animation you see on-screen is an abstraction. Just like the "terrain saving throw" that means you can watch a burst of fire pass right through the chest of a pTruppe and yet he survives unscathed. It's below the "abstraction layer" and you do not need to worry about it. Use your imagination to think what might be present at the sub-metre scale that can't be represented in the game for technical reasons.

[stealthsilent1]

In the end, it doesn't matter one jot or tittle what "Hide" actually translates to in terms of troop activity "in real life". Unless you're trying to point a finger and say "Not a perfect simulation! Rubbissshhhhh!"What matters is that the unit will go prone, for whatever benefit the situation offeres, the spotting of the unit is degraded and that its ability to remain unseen is improved if it wasn't being observed when it Hid, or if its new, fixed, low posture puts it behind 100% concealment. It's about the "tactical posture" of the unit. If they're told to Hide, then that's their priority, and what they actually do on a micro level, beyond the scale of the animation you see on-screen is an abstraction. Just like the "terrain saving throw" that means you can watch a burst of fire pass right through the chest of a pTruppe and yet he survives unscathed. It's below the "abstraction layer" and you do not need to worry about it. Use your imagination to think what might be present at the sub-metre scale that can't be represented in the game for technical reasons.

because that's my favorite thing to do, to use my imagination. So when they are in the hide command, they hide better than normal. For some strange reason, like putting mud on their face. But that still doesn't answer the question. I like to peek out and see when I'm hiding and not be blind. Why are they blind? Also changing the camera to make it to eye level of infantary and tanks at all stances would be good.