Plans for Special Forces in Future Releases

[Cuddles the Warmonger]

Does the battlefront team have any aspirations to add special operations units to future updates/releases?

[itsgoa12345]

even i have the same question....

[ChrisND]

Likely candidates for a future pack or module include SOF units that can also function as elite light infantry, like 75th Ranger Regiment and the majority of Spetsnaz units, and a few other units. However they would only be considered for duties that fall within the scope of Combat Mission, which is acting as elite light infantry or recon.

 

It isn't practical for us to support actual special operations, like the stuff that dedicated SF and counter terrorist units do. The Combat Mission engine simply is not built to support that sort of action.

 

The next question will be "why don't include you include SEAL Team Six/Delta/*insert fifty other forces here* and we'll just make do?"  Because if we include it, people will expect it to be fully supported. And that would basically require a whole new game.

[Stagler]

Likely candidates for a future pack or module include SOF units that can also function as elite light infantry, like 75th Ranger Regiment and the majority of Spetsnaz units, and a few other units. However they would only be considered for duties that fall within the scope of Combat Mission, which is acting as elite light infantry or recon.

 

This is all the "SOF" that CM needs to include. Other units are out of scope yes.

 

45 ORP VDV and 75th Rangers would be solid bets.

[Buzz]

Likely candidates for a future pack or module include SOF units that can also function as elite light infantry, like 75th Ranger Regiment and the majority of Spetsnaz units, and a few other units. However they would only be considered for duties that fall within the scope of Combat Mission, which is acting as elite light infantry or recon.

 

 

Sounds good to me.... beats MOP4 suits and ZEDS

[Rinaldi]

Alot of this can also be achieved by just setting something to 'Elite' ; GREEN OPs usually don't require a drastic equipment change; there'd be little to distinguish them from line infantry half the time. 

[A Canadian Cat]

Likely candidates for a future pack or module include SOF units that can also function as elite light infantry, like 75th Ranger Regiment and the majority of Spetsnaz units, and a few other units.

 

Really looking forward to something like that!

[Cuddles the Warmonger]

Chris literaly read my mind on the second question =D , which brings me to my hopefully last (semi-obvious) question. Can there be an option to start units "pre-mounted", mounting forces is a pain...

[MikeyD]

 I think Steve had commented somewhere that special forces kind'a lose their 'edge' when they're being used as line infantry against a prepared enemy. The whole point of special forces is to do everything BUT that. We'd have to reverse the trend for larger battles with special forces, return to the old CMSF days of scenarios involving a narrow-focus assault on a single building in the middle of a town.

[sburke]

CMSF - Campaign TF Panther - Battle 3 "The Snitch" By Chris  101st Airborne pltn with Special Op unit go to retrieve an informant.  One of my all time favorite scenarios.   Done without ever having a "Special Ops" module or ToE etc.

 

All it takes is imagination.

[womble]

All depends what you include in the bucket that says "Special Forces", I suppose. But even trying to add a handful of "Scout" or "Sniper" teams with maxed soft factors to represent the snake eaters, they'll have some of the same clay feet the ordinary crunchies do. The differences in physical conditioning can't really be represented (unless you downgrade everyone else to "Unfit").

[The Teacher]

So no Rambo

So no Arnie

So no Expendables

oh and no Bruce Willis

 

 

I got it

Stephen

[sburke]

So no Rambo

So no Arnie

So no Expendables

oh and no Bruce Willis

 

 

I got it

Stephen

Well unless you appreciate c3k's position- all his men are expendable.  And they thank him for the opportunity.

[DreDay]

All depends what you include in the bucket that says "Special Forces", I suppose. But even trying to add a handful of "Scout" or "Sniper" teams with maxed soft factors to represent the snake eaters, they'll have some of the same clay feet the ordinary crunchies do. The differences in physical conditioning can't really be represented (unless you downgrade everyone else to "Unfit").

 

I see your point, SF personel are not some kind of supermen and they are subjected to the same fatigue, morale, and stress factors as regular line infantry units. At the same time, they do use special weapons that are not available to regular infantry (like silenced/supressed ARs and Sniper Rifles); and their overall level of training allows for a higher degree of camouflage and spotting than regular infantry units (regardlress of their readiness and training). Hopefully this can be simulated in CMBB as it would allow for a wider range of tactical choices and scenarios.

Edited January 2, 2015 by DreDay

[womble]

I see your point, SF personel are not some kind of supermen...

Actually, I'd disagree here. They are, from what I've read a minor kind of superman, to be able to do some of the things they do. Your average line grunt won't even pass Selection; that's what it's for, and the most difficult part of that process is almost invariably the endurance element. "Continuing to excel while fatigued" is very similar in-game to "not being fatigued yet".

...and they are subjected to the same fatigue, morale, and stress factors as regular line infantry units...

True, the inputs are the same, and some of the responses can be simulated in-game by higher morale factors. But the elite units pride themselves on pushing their fitness further than "Regular" units, because they've selected the best specimens, both physically and mentally so they can.

At the same time, they do use special weapons that are not available to regular infantry (like silenced/supressed ARs and Sniper Rifles)

Most of those wouldn't have much impact in the kind of action CM is concerned with.

...and their overall level of training allows for a higher degree of camouflage and spotting than regular infantry units...

Definitely. In a game-design-scenario where any old unit can be assigned "Elite" experience and +2 leadership (the factors which affect the base ability in those areas), units from "SF" TOs should have higher base abilities, then modified up by their assigned soft values. To get SF into a scenario where pTruppen with the same soft factors have exactly the same shooting, spotting and hiding ability with the same weapon, regardless of their "TO-of-origin" (the situation which currently pertains), you'd want, as the designer, to make sure all the other units on the map were a grade or two (depending on whether the SF is Ranger or Delta, maybe) lower than whatever you assign to the SF.

[-Eddie-]

Some nice tags this topic has. I often search for elite tier one operator info.

[Pablius]

SF may be represented in small elements behind enemy lines, as spotters or in a town preparing an ambush on a light armored convoy, but other, more subtle, operations like hostage rescue or assassination of high ranking officers would be harder to represent in this game and probably lead to frustration

 

Personally I prefer for BF to focus their efforts on more conventional forces

[DreDay]

Actually, I'd disagree here. They are, from what I've read a minor kind of superman, to be able to do some of the things they do. Your average line grunt won't even pass Selection; that's what it's for, and the most difficult part of that process is almost invariably the endurance element. "Continuing to excel while fatigued" is very similar in-game to "not being fatigued yet".

 

I am by no means caliming to be an expert on this; but I am lucky enough to have some buddies that have surved in US Airborne/Light Infantry/Marine/Ranger/SOF forces. They are all tough and they are all fit (or at least used to be while in service) as hell. In my personal view - what sets the SOF guys appart is not so much their physical fitness, or even their firearms and tactical training; but rather their psychological conditioning where they are "programmed to perform their mission no matter what", which is something that regular or even elite grunts can't quite match...

 

True, the inputs are the same, and some of the responses can be simulated in-game by higher morale factors. But the elite units pride themselves on pushing their fitness further than "Regular" units, because they've selected the best specimens, both physically and mentally so they can.

 

Again, my personal (and very subjective) opinion is that the superior performance of SOF units has less to do with better fitness and much more to do with a different level of psychological conditioning (something that we would call "morale" in game terms).

 

Most of those wouldn't have much impact in the kind of action CM is concerned with.

 

With all due respect, I completely dissagree. Silenced and supressed weapons would have a major impact on small-unit infantry tacticts in this game; much like the do in real life. Of course if you are dealing with a scenario where one side has a massive advantage in tanks and other heavy firepower while the other is just using SOF - then yes, indeed their impact would be very small. Howver, those types of weapons do play in major role in small(er) unit infantry combat...

Definitely. In a game-design-scenario where any old unit can be assigned "Elite" experience and +2 leadership (the factors which affect the base ability in those areas), units from "SF" TOs should have higher base abilities, then modified up by their assigned soft values. To get SF into a scenario where pTruppen with the same soft factors have exactly the same shooting, spotting and hiding ability with the same weapon, regardless of their "TO-of-origin" (the situation which currently pertains), you'd want, as the designer, to make sure all the other units on the map were a grade or two (depending on whether the SF is Ranger or Delta, maybe) lower than whatever you assign to the SF.

 

Here we are in complete agreement.

Edited January 2, 2015 by DreDay

[Sim1943]

Just want to chime in on Rangers: would love to see them included this time around. Missed them in CM:SF. Having them and Marines for US forces would be perfect - obviously for expansions not the base game.

[ExurbanKevin]

Likely candidates for a future pack or module include SOF units that can also function as elite light infantry, like 75th Ranger Regiment and the majority of Spetsnaz units, and a few other units. However they would only be considered for duties that fall within the scope of Combat Mission, which is acting as elite light infantry or recon.

 

It isn't practical for us to support actual special operations, like the stuff that dedicated SF and counter terrorist units do. The Combat Mission engine simply is not built to support that sort of action.

 

The next question will be "why don't include you include SEAL Team Six/Delta/*insert fifty other forces here* and we'll just make do?"  Because if we include it, people will expect it to be fully supported. And that would basically require a whole new game.

 

Yay! I prefer to play company-sized or smaller quick battles against AI, so having Tier √-1 Units to play with will, by their very nature, limit the mission creep that's been popping up in CM missions of late. 

[vincere]

Likely candidates for a future pack or module include SOF units that can also function as elite light infantry, like 75th Ranger Regiment and the majority of Spetsnaz units, and a few other units. However they would only be considered for duties that fall within the scope of Combat Mission, which is acting as elite light infantry or recon.

 

It isn't practical for us to support actual special operations, like the stuff that dedicated SF and counter terrorist units do. The Combat Mission engine simply is not built to support that sort of action.

 

The next question will be "why don't include you include SEAL Team Six/Delta/*insert fifty other forces here* and we'll just make do?"  Because if we include it, people will expect it to be fully supported. And that would basically require a whole new game.

 

I will play devils advocate and be the lone dissenting voice.

 

Let me first be clear: One of the reasons I like CM is because it is standard infantry and combat. Not wanting as Special Forces game.

 

I think there's a place for SOF beyond Ranger Regiment and Spetsnaz.

 

Two reasons. First is the way US and British SOF have been used in many major battles in Afghanistan and Iraq. They get used as shock troops, recon and Fire/Air controllers troops for crucial geographical points or phases of the battle.

 

As you say, when employed like this they loose a lot of their edge and fight much like other mortals. So no need for extra breach and repelling animations etc etc.

 

However, they are MUCH more flexible in their ToE/ORBAT. So a range of squad and platoon choices would add flavour and something to the game as they do in RL. For example, a 16 man fighting patrol to add oomph to an attack on a hard point. Which brings us to 2: they would add flavour to the game.

 

Additional: Huge rarity should balance QBs.

[A Canadian Cat]

I think there's a place for SOF beyond Ranger Regiment and Spetsnaz.

 

Two reasons. First is the way US and British SOF have been used in many major battles in Afghanistan and Iraq. They get used as shock troops, recon and Fire/Air controllers troops for crucial geographical points or phases of the battle.

But isn't the Ranger, and Spetsnaz forces the ones that are likely to be used this way? It seems like you will likely have what you want really if Chris does what he talked about above. Or are you looking for nifty uniform and kit choices?

 

However, they are MUCH more flexible in their ToE/ORBAT. So a range of squad and platoon choices would add flavour and something to the game as they do in RL. For example, a 16 man fighting patrol to add oomph to an attack on a hard point. Which brings us to 2: they would add flavour to the game.

Now that would be cool. Not sure how easy it would be to implement but even if there were several top level formations each of which have some interesting variation of platoon structure. That still sounds like a lot of work for the TOE guys (aka Chris and or Steve) but making the force selector support more customization might be even more work. I have no real idea. It would be kind of cool.

Additional: Huge rarity should balance QBs.

Ick - rarity set to none

[Bahger]

I haven't played CM since Shock Force, so forgive me if my powers of recall are faulty but was it possible in that game, and in BS, to insert and extract light infantry by helicopter? I would have thought that this capability, when used alongside UAVs and certain electronic counter-detection assets, might satisfy most needs for SF ops. Might there also be low-profile, hard to detect helos for infiltration with the ability to fly NOE? I am not sure, but from what I can recall, it seems to me that this game engine could render this kind of operation without fundamental change. Come to think of it, though, I am so rusty re. CM that I cannot even remember whether there has ever been a capability for airborne or helicopter-inserted infantry so all this might be wishful thinking, sorry!

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Nah.  Helicopter insertion so close to the front line, especially in an environment with ZSU-23s, let alone 2S6s would be a bad idea.  In game you can replicate, at least at this point American air assault guys by using the Infantry Brigade Combat Team type units and leaving behind their larger trucks though.

[Bahger]

But regardless of tactical considerations, does the game have a mechanic for inserting and/or extracting infantry by air?