No MOUT breakdowns for US?

[Sim1943]

Noticed that there was no MOUT breakdowns for the US, similar to what we had in CMSF (ie. normally, 9 man squad broken down into a 5 man 'A' team and a 4 man 'B' team, but with a MOUT formation, 3 three man teams in the same squad).

Has the US MOUT (UO) doctrine changed since then?

Or is there a way to break a vanilla 9 man rifle squad into three 3 man teams? Or will it be like it is now, where if you, say, break off a scout team, you will be left with one huge 'A' team of 7 guys? Or can we break off, say, two 2 man scout teams and be left with a 5 man team?

For the WWII titles, I think it works fine how its currently modeled. But for modern titles, I would love to see more flexibility in how we break up our squads.

For instance, in his stream, Chris mentioned that Humvee teams have two components now: the driver/gunner team, and a additional 2 or 3 man team that can dismount to recon and so forth. That kind of flexibility is what I am talking about - this is a great addition and will give similar teams much, much more flexibility.

Maybe for the modern titles of the better trained armies, having a 'MOUT/UO' breakdown option in a scenario would be the best solution. So you would have the current breakdown options we have right now (SPLIT, ASSAULT, ANTI-TANK and SCOUT) but then mix in another option: MOUT/UO. This would break a 9 man squad into three 3 man teams, a 6 man squad into 3 two man teams, a 7 man squad into one 3 man team, two 2 man teams and so on.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Chad

[John Kettler]

Rison,

A most interesting question, especially after understanding what you were asking about. When I first read the title, though, my brain immediately seized on the opportunity for word play, such as archly observing that US MOUT doesn't break down, since the training is meticulous and the execution precise. I like your ideas, but think we need some cool animations and gear for MOUT: for the man ladder (foot in clenched hands, then heave); step on soldier's back, maybe even fight from there briefly, grappling gear, actual ladders, planks with cross members to act as de facto assault ramps and more. ISIS has put out some remarkable video showing its break in and room clearing techniques. Believe it was in that two-hour vid that had a lot of really horrible stuff in it, with much smaller amounts of straight up combat footage.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Rossmeister]

Since the job of infantry is so horribly dangerous in modern conflicts, I honestly feel we need more realistic fighting abilities for infantry in Black Sea.

The buddy system is one. The ability to split into two-man teams, and cordon-formations in MOUT. One man at each corner of a building to prevent enemy escape, for example.

The distance between each squad member is another suggestion. Extremely important for patrol formations when you expect contact, but also for the squad's firing line in engagements over longer distances. Formations would also be appreciated. Line, column, staggered column etc.

The ability of the squad leader to position the squad MG(s) within the squad formation is also a very important, especially for squads with only one MG, but maybe that's not prevalent in Black Sea. You could do this by simply breaking up the squad, though.

[-Eddie-]

Going further with improved infantry I'd like to see an improved building assault capability. As it is right now assault just seems to be one fireteam on overwatch while the second one blindly rushes into a building.

No stacking up on the doors, grenades in first, clearing corners; just run in and die. This is something that needs some attention.

[Sim1943]

Along those same lines, it would be great to have a grenade fire command where you could do exactly that. I can never get my soldiers to throw grenades, but the AI seems to have no problems doing so . . .

[womble]

Going further with improved infantry I'd like to see an improved building assault capability. As it is right now assault just seems to be one fireteam on overwatch while the second one blindly rushes into a building.

Reading this, I wonder whether you're expecting too much from a specific command. "Assault" is, exactly as you describe, one team on overwatch, one team moving. I operate as standard with split squads, so my memory of testing how it works is woolly, but I think they operate as "bounding overwatch" if they've got enough waypoints of Assault plotted. Assault is certainly not a command that's intended to "automate" building entry and clearance.

...No stacking up on the doors, grenades in first, clearing corners; just run in and die...

There are drills you can implement that pretty much cover that procedure. You have to accept that the interiors of buildings are heavily abstracted, so "clearing corners" isn't really something you'll see until that changes (CMx4, maybe? or late CMx3?). But you can certainly have your assaulting team stack up, chuck grenades and not just run in and die.

In outline: you have to split your squad, preferably into Assault and Fire elements because that gives the Assault team all the grenades, and having plenty of grenades available makes them more likely to use them. Pause a while outside the building, with an Area Target into the floor you're assaulting into, and the small arms and grenade fire should maintain suppression and kill some defenders before you actually go in. It's not a perfect representation of storming a structure, but it generally works okay so long as you've made sure there won't be any surprises. Cutting down any runners just takes more elements, if total envelopment is possible depending on the exact situation of course.

[MOS:96B2P]

In outline: you have to split your squad, preferably into Assault and Fire elements because that gives the Assault team all the grenades, and having plenty of grenades available makes them more likely to use them. Pause a while outside the building, with an Area Target into the floor you're assaulting into, and the small arms and grenade fire should maintain suppression and kill some defenders before you actually go in.

This is good information that explains how to merge the game mechanics with real life tactics in order to obtain the desired result. Information like this is one of the things that make this forum so valuable and why I enjoy reading it. Thank you womble.

[womble]

This is good information that explains how to merge the game mechanics with real life tactics in order to obtain the desired result. Information like this is one of the things that make this forum so valuable and why I enjoy reading it. Thank you womble.

Glad to be of service. I think it's a testament to the fidelity of the simulation that we so often expect perhaps a little too much from it Even developing on my outline above, you'll not see your pTruppen actally "stack" at the doorway; they'll be spread out in the AS or partial AS outside while they chuck and shoot into the building, but at the really low level, we're still talking about 8m squares which the main part of my house would fit into twice, so some abstraction is inevitable.

[stealthsilent1]

Rison,

A most interesting question, especially after understanding what you were asking about. When I first read the title, though, my brain immediately seized on the opportunity for word play, such as archly observing that US MOUT doesn't break down, since the training is meticulous and the execution precise. I like your ideas, but think we need some cool animations and gear for MOUT: for the man ladder (foot in clenched hands, then heave); step on soldier's back, maybe even fight from there briefly, grappling gear, actual ladders, planks with cross members to act as de facto assault ramps and more. ISIS has put out some remarkable video showing its break in and room clearing techniques. Believe it was in that two-hour vid that had a lot of really horrible stuff in it, with much smaller amounts of straight up combat footage.

Regards,

John Kettler

no Isis they are smart guys and they know how to fight. I've seen a video on the Russians, they don't know what they are doing.