Useful prep: Hit the CMSF subforum for ATGM coping strategies

[Sulman]

...Those of you looking forward to this that haven't dipped a toe in Shock Force waters, you're going to be shocked and awed by RPG's and ATGM's. They will be far and away the biggest culture shock if you're used to CMx1 and CMBN onwards.

They'll make you rage, make you miserable, then you'll go with it and start having some fun

Edit: This is a good example http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=94550

[Apocal]

Artillery suppresses ATGMs just fine. Most ATGM types shouldn't be able to fire from inside a building either; Javelin is the exception.

[Sulman]

Artillery suppresses ATGMs just fine. Most ATGM types shouldn't be able to fire from inside a building either; Javelin is the exception.

The problem is their ubiquity; and the fact that everything except heavy MBT's is vulnerable to RPG's.

I think it's the latter that provided a challenge to CMSF; IFV's need care if they are going to play their support role. I think every newish player has experienced total vehicle losses on a simple advance to contact, even against green opponents.

[Sergei]

Here's another helpful tip: if you are only used to WW2, Shock Force demo is this way, and in case you prefer some Cold War Soviets, Afghanistan demo is this way.

Reading the CMSF manual that comes with the demo is especially recommended for modern era noobs! It's not the exact same thing as 2017 but it may soften the landing a little bit... CM Afghanistan is also interesting in that it features the Drozd APS!

[Lethaface]

Artillery suppresses ATGMs just fine. Most ATGM types shouldn't be able to fire from inside a building either; Javelin is the exception.

IIRC the AT-13 was able to fire from inside a building in CMSF. Besides, RPGs were also able to fire from withing buildings. Especially deadly were Syrian RPG-29 toting Special Forces in ambush. Although imo the most deadly were AT-14 in concealed positions far away. Basically they don't miss so you'll spot them after one of you tanks started smoking

From >1km away it isn't easy to spot one even after it has fired, plus artillery takes some time to call in.

If playing H2H expect the ATGM team to move shortly after firing! At least that's what I used to do.

[Sulman]

I

From >1km away it isn't easy to spot one even after it has fired, plus artillery takes some time to call in.

I just learnt to scout, scout, and scout some more.

Overwatch is excellent for RPG's at all ranges - if you've got proper cover the shooter won't usually get away without being at least heavily suppressed the moment they fire.

The big ATGMs though are so tricky, and they can be tough to kill, even with arty.

[Lethaface]

I just learnt to scout, scout, and scout some more.

Overwatch is excellent for RPG's at all ranges - if you've got proper cover the shooter won't usually get away without being at least heavily suppressed the moment they fire.

The big ATGMs though are so tricky, and they can be tough to kill, even with arty.

Yep, my lesson was to always expect ATGMs when there are long sightlines. Bait, pop smoke, scout, whatever; just don't move up a convoy onto an open field/road/area without calculating in losses.

[Apocal]

The problem is their ubiquity; and the fact that everything except heavy MBT's is vulnerable to RPG's.

I think it's the latter that provided a challenge to CMSF; IFV's need care if they are going to play their support role. I think every newish player has experienced total vehicle losses on a simple advance to contact, even against green opponents.

The ubiquity wasn't much of a problem for me personally; you take your time and lead with infantry eyes with arty/mortars on iffy locations, there aren't too many surprises that can be sprung.

IIRC the AT-13 was able to fire from inside a building in CMSF. Besides, RPGs were also able to fire from withing buildings. Especially deadly were Syrian RPG-29 toting Special Forces in ambush. Although imo the most deadly were AT-14 in concealed positions far away. Basically they don't miss so you'll spot them after one of you tanks started smoking

If the AT-13 could fire inside buildings in CMSF I never noticed. And the main issue I had with the -29 was it wiping out my infantry. Which is realistic enough, HE beats bullets for lethality at everything but spitting distance.

[Sulman]

Yep, my lesson was to always expect ATGMs when there are long sightlines. Bait, pop smoke, scout, whatever; just don't move up a convoy onto an open field/road/area without calculating in losses.

The AI will often prioritise, too. You can move heavy MBTs up and they won't take a shot at them unless they're critically close, but the second you move an IFV or Hummer into LOS they'll have a pop at it.

[Apocal]

I don't know why my post has a thumbs down on it.

[Lethaface]

If the AT-13 could fire inside buildings in CMSF I never noticed. And the main issue I had with the -29 was it wiping out my infantry. Which is realistic enough, HE beats bullets for lethality at everything but spitting distance.

It could fire without deploying, can't remember whether it was restricted to the plenty of balconies or could also be fired from inside an actual room.

Have you played a lot of H2H in CMSF? In urban area's a side shot from a RPG-29 was quite lethal even for most MBTs. Not to mention Bradleys or Strykers. Obviously as the Syrians one should hide or use a target arc to make sure they only open up when close.

[Sulman]

...the -29 was it wiping out my infantry. Which is realistic enough, HE beats bullets for lethality at everything but spitting distance.

It seemed to be particularly effective when shot into buildings from window to window, such as those inevitable CMSF MOUT objectives with multiple sightlines.

[A Canadian Cat]

I don't know why my post has a thumbs down on it.

A the bottom of the post editing screen there is a "Post Icons" radio button where you can choose an icon for your post. For this I chose the winky face.

You probably just accidentally clicked on it.

[rocketman]

...Those of you looking forward to this that haven't dipped a toe in Shock Force waters, you're going to be shocked and awed by RPG's and ATGM's. They will be far and away the biggest culture shock if you're used to CMx1 and CMBN onwards.

You make a compelling argument ... downloading ... in preparation for the modern era ... slightly scared to be honest from what I have seen from CMBS. But in a good way

[Saferight]

And the main issue I had with the -29 was it wiping out my infantry. Which is realistic enough, HE beats bullets for lethality at everything but spitting distance.

i had the same issue. that round would be the TBG-29V thermobaric round which is a little more intense than standard HE on infantry i would say. with CMBS we should expect to see lots of thermobaric weapons for the Russians from disposable single shot launchers like the RPO-M to ones for the RPG-7 and their ATGM systems as well. Thats going to give the opfor lots of lethality against infantry.

[Lethaface]

In fact the RPO-M "Shmel-M" features a reusable launcher.

[Apocal]

Thanks Ian.

Have you played a lot of H2H in CMSF? In urban area's a side shot from a RPG-29 was quite lethal even for most MBTs. Not to mention Bradleys or Strykers. Obviously as the Syrians one should hide or use a target arc to make sure they only open up when close.

Not a ton, maybe like fifty games tops.

I was conservative with armor in cities and towns for that reason, basically I'd use dismounts to clear out "enclaves" for my armor and rarely poke around with vehicles in the lead. I mean it still happened but ATGMs capable of going through the Abrams front were my biggest worry and short-ranged RPGs generally just killed tons of my infantry.

[agusto]

It seemed to be particularly effective when shot into buildings from window to window, such as those inevitable CMSF MOUT objectives with multiple sightlines.

Oh yeah. RPGs are the real killers in MOUT operations. Before i enter a town or city in CMSF, i always have my infantry take all the RPGs they can carry from their transports. Even the most elite Syrian special forces just die if you hit the room they are in with 2 or 3 RPGs.

Another favorite weapon of mine in CMSF are the automatic grenade launchers - and i kinda count the BMPs and Bradleys autocanon as automatic grenade launchers too because their effects on infatry are similar - because they are just so extremly deadly against all soft targets. The best way to clear a room is to hit it with 10-15 30 mm HE rounds - not only will the enemy infantry be dead, but the building will also be mostly left intact, so you can use it for your own purposes.

[Saferight]

In fact the RPO-M "Shmel-M" features a reusable launcher.

Really? I knew it had a added pistol grip and sights. Nifty weapon for urban fighting.

[Sulman]

short-ranged RPGs generally just killed tons of my infantry.

I still find using the battle taxis correctly rather difficult. If you've got some distance to cover, you don't always have time to scout really far ahead, so you have to risk moving close enough to the objective to get your squads in effective range/cover but not exposing the vehicle and meat cargo to fiery death.

There's a good Marines scenario - Road To Shin - which requires you to get to an objective in around an hour through some pretty dangerous spots. It seems unfair on the first few playthroughs but it's actually a great scenario on security and using vehicles where they really are vulnerable.

[agusto]

I still find using the battle taxis correctly rather difficult. If you've got some distance to cover, you don't always have time to scout really far ahead, so you have to risk moving close enough to the objective to get your squads in effective range/cover but not exposing the vehicle and meat cargo to fiery death.

Well, one method is to just stay away from all potential spots where an enemy RPG team could hide. ~300 meteres should be a distance where a hit with an unduided missile vs. a moving target becomes really unlikely.

The other thing you can do is to massively surpress the area where you expect the enemy RPG teams to be. Ideally with with artillery because it can cover very large areas, but everything else that causes sufficient surpression works just as well. The problem with this tactic is that if it is done for an elongated period of time, it can really become quite ammo-intensive.

[Sulman]

Another favorite weapon of mine in CMSF are the automatic grenade launchers - and i kinda count the BMPs and Bradleys autocanon as automatic grenade launchers too because their effects on infatry are similar - because they are just so extremly deadly against all soft targets. The best way to clear a room is to hit it with 10-15 30 mm HE rounds - not only will the enemy infantry be dead, but the building will also be mostly left intact, so you can use it for your own purposes.

There's a type of building - apparently beloved of scenario designers - that has an internal divider with windows.

I've seen a full squad get wiped out by a couple of men with AK's; they're hard to suppress as firing into the adjacent room doesn't do much. The only recourse is to find one of the other walls and go around. It got me thinking how difficult urban combat is, and why city blocks essentially get destroyed rather than trying to fight through with footsloggers.

The flip side of the modern setting is, unlike CMBN or the CMx1 games, I don't fear tanks at all. They're no longer a magic bullet (I remember CMBB pbem games where losing your tank was often decisive) when you have the possibility of killing one with any squad.

I think every CMSF player had the 'Javelin moment'; when they realised that a handful of those things represents incredible striking power and the ability to beat anything on the entire map at any practical range, right there in your squad.

[Apocal]

I still find using the battle taxis correctly rather difficult. If you've got some distance to cover, you don't always have time to scout really far ahead, so you have to risk moving close enough to the objective to get your squads in effective range/cover but not exposing the vehicle and meat cargo to fiery death.

Smoke from any source helps; vehicle smoke can "shield" you from wrath of RPGs once you're closing on the objective and your track goes stationary.