Fun with the "Funnies" - Micro Video

[RSW]

I took two of the "funnies" (Sherman Crab and Churchill AVRE) for a spin. See a video at my blog or at YouTube for high definition.

http://kriegsimulation.blogspot.com/2014/11/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy.html

This is just a test, no tactical, historical or things of the like are intended. The map and scenario are custom-made and looking half-decent, actually. I may compile this setup as an scenario.

Cheers,

[Hister]

I took two of the "funnies" (Sherman Crab and Churchill AVRE) for a spin. See a video at my blog or at YouTube for high definition.

http://kriegsimulation.blogspot.com/2014/11/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy.html

This is just a test, no tactical, historical or things of the like are intended. The map and scenario are custom-made and looking half-decent, actually. I may compile this setup as an scenario.

Cheers,

Nice video. We need a mission with a crab so it would be a god send.

[Oddball_E8]

Needs more mods

Can't wait to see these things fully modded up and in action

Right now I'm holding off on using them since there are so many bugs with the pack (Pz IV and Pz III becomes bunkers from a certain distance, the flakpanzer 38 has wonky wheels and the german AT bunkers have a much too wide field of fire)

[Hister]

I wonder how long will we have to wait for the patch. I'll just omit bugged stuff and use all the rest.

[A co]

Nice video. The dust cloud from the crab could be useful in itself. How does the petard get reloaded in the game? In real life I think the crew had to exit the vehicle and do a lot of work to reload it.

[Trooper117]

I took two of the "funnies" (Sherman Crab and Churchill AVRE) for a spin. See a video at my blog or at YouTube for high definition.

http://kriegsimulation.blogspot.com/2014/11/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy.html

This is just a test, no tactical, historical or things of the like are intended. The map and scenario are custom-made and looking half-decent, actually. I may compile this setup as an scenario.

Cheers,

Nice one... good to see these things in action!

[John Kettler]

BFC, RSW et al.

Nice movie, but I think BFC and/or the mods need to be called in. Stat. Why? The way the Petard looks when fired, and the Flying Dustbin projectile in flight, are nothing like reality at all. See for yourself. All the propellant is exhausted at launch, in one bang that blows the projectile off the spigot. There is no rocket trail, and the projectile isn't afire, either. No idea how this happened.

Info follows for anyone interested in Churchill AVRE Petard.

Summary of Petard

A gigantic (290 mm) PIAT type spigot weapon that slowly fires Flying Dustbin HESH projectile to smash, by internal spalling, heavy concrete fortifications out to ~80 m. Same principle. Same core design for both weapons. Colonel Blacker of Blacker Bombard fame.

Colonel Blacker and a description of how a spigot weapon works. The Blacker Bombard drawing shows the internals of a spigot weapon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacker_Bombard

Petard weapon described

http://worldwar2headquarters.com/HTML/normandy/HobartsFunnies/hf_petard.html

Flying Dustbin

http://henk.fox3000.com/churchill/ti02.jpg

If you want a Crab scenario, ask BFC to get the Anzio module out for CMFI, for that is where the Crab first met the Germans. And lost. Several times.

True story.

The Anzio breakout effort has begun, but the German minefields are great barriers. Out trundles the Crab. Whoosh! Crab bits everywhere. Out trundles another Crab. Whoosh! More roasted Crab. Don't recall whether another Crab died or not, but the Panzerschreck team so smashingly debuting the weapon to the Allies did!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

Before the Crab the British had the Scorpion, which got used in North Africa some. They experimented with versions mounted on Matildas, Valentines, and Grants before they hit on a successful combination with the Sherman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail

Michael

[Lille Fiskerby]

A co quote :

"How does the petard get reloaded in the game? In real life I think the crew had to exit the vehicle and do a lot of work to reload it."

I did a little testing of the AVRE : you have to open up for the tank commander to reload

and you have to have a 6 man team inside the tank so if the 3 man assualt team dismount it will not reload.

When it has reloaded it took between 1 and 6 minutes to fire the Petard again with an

average of 4 minutes in a 25 minutes testing period.

LF

[John Kettler]

Lille Fiskerby,

Then, sadly, the game has it wrong. From the Churchill Tank Wiki, Churchill AVRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_tank

"The Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers was a Churchill III or IV equipped with the Petard, a 290 mm Spigot mortar, throwing the 40 lb (18 kg) "Flying dustbin" with its 28 pound high explosive warhead; a weapon designed for the quick levelling of fortifications, which was developed by MD1. The petard was reloaded by traversing the turret to the co-driver's hatch. The co-driver then breaks down open the petard barrel and pushes the petard round into the barrel and then closes it. The co-driver's hands are briefly exposed during the process."

Michael Emrys,

Fair point, but the question specifically pertained to the Crab, and I responded accordingly. Other than having seen a John Bachelor illustration of the Matilda based flail in one of those Ballantine's Illustrated Guides, I know pretty much zero on the subject of Allied flail tanks prior to the Crab.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Oddball_E8]

Lille Fiskerby,

Then, sadly, the game has it wrong. From the Churchill Tank Wiki, Churchill AVRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_tank

"The Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers was a Churchill III or IV equipped with the Petard, a 290 mm Spigot mortar, throwing the 40 lb (18 kg) "Flying dustbin" with its 28 pound high explosive warhead; a weapon designed for the quick levelling of fortifications, which was developed by MD1. The petard was reloaded by traversing the turret to the co-driver's hatch. The co-driver then breaks down open the petard barrel and pushes the petard round into the barrel and then closes it. The co-driver's hands are briefly exposed during the process."

Michael Emrys,

Fair point, but the question specifically pertained to the Crab, and I responded accordingly. Other than having seen a John Bachelor illustration of the Matilda based flail in one of those Ballantine's Illustrated Guides, I know pretty much zero on the subject of Allied flail tanks prior to the Crab.

Regards,

John Kettler

Mine reloaded without being unbuttoned, so I think Lille is wrong about that detail.

[John Kettler]

Oddball_E8,

Hmm. That raises an intriguing question. If reloading requires a hatch to be opened, doesn't that require the tank to be Unbuttoned in terms of describing its state? I grant it's not Unbuttoned in the sense of TC exposed and everyone else head out, either. Do we now, then, have some intermediate mode called Partially Unbuttoned? The TC shouldn't be exposed when reloading the Petard. Several accounts make this clear, so how is the game to treat this new to the game state occasioned by AVRE remunitioning? I think there may be some useful answers over on the CMSF side of the house, where I believe the M2/M3 Bradleys have some sorted of limited crew exposure TOW reload akin to that for the Petard.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Trooper117]

Reloading the Petard...

'The petard was reloaded by traversing the turret to the co-driver's hatch. The co-driver then breaks down open the petard barrel and pushes the petard round into the barrel and then closes it. The co-driver's hands are briefly exposed during the process. The AVRE was designed after the Canadian defeat at Dieppe, and could also be equipped with numerous other attachments, such as mine flails, fascine rollers, explosive placers etc.'

Also... 'The crew of six were drawn from the Royal Engineers, except for the driver who came from the Royal Armoured Corps. One of the RE crew was a demolitions NCO sapper responsible for priming the "Flying dustbin" and who led the crew when they dismounted from the tank to place demolition charges ("Wade" charges). '

Certainly sounds hazardous to me... suicidal when in contact I'd say.

There must be a withdrawal to a safer area I'd have said if they needed to reload during a battle...

[Wicky]

In game the Radio Operator is indicated as Reloading

Immediately after firing at a target 81m away crew status is as follows (buttoned by the way):

Commander: Spotting

Gunner: Waiting

Radio Operator: Reloading

Loader: Spotting

Loader: Spotting

Driver: Spotting

This is an individually bought tank so according to the manual comes without the extra 3 onboard engineers. Not having them doesn't hinder the AVRE ability to shoot.

In testing it took two turns to fire again at no stage while reloading did the AVRE appear to unbutton EDIT one of the forward hatches did briefly open and a round was shoved in just before it fired again. Also the Gunner did the aiming when reloaded and the Radio Operator was shown as firing at the moment the petard let rip. Seems a busy chap while the loaders sit around.

[Lille Fiskerby]

Nice to know it will reload unbottoned but with a 6 man crew, right ?

if its a 3 man crew (when the 3 man assualt team has dismounted)

I waited 50 min. and it would not reload buttoned up.

LF

[Lille Fiskerby]

what I mean :

Nice to know it will reload without open up but with a 6 man crew, right ?

if its a 3 man crew (when the 3 man assualt team has dismounted)

I waited 50 min. and it would not reload buttoned up.

[Wicky]

Whn buying a bunch of AVREs (not single vehicles as noted above) in the scenario editor they come with a base crew of Commander, Gunner & driver - the unloadable Breach Team consist of Radio Operator, Loader & Engineer.

They always fire their first round wether the breach team are onboard or not as the game always has one in the breach from the off. After shooting the first shot If there isn't the 3 man breach team onboard it will not reload the main mortar and just fire the machine guns. Once the breach team reboard reloading continues as normal. Interestingly the Assualt Squadron HQ who travel along in a Humber III if they dismount and jump into an AVRE empty of the breach team, one of the HQ will take on the important Radio Operator crew role and reloading can take place.

[Lille Fiskerby]

Thanks for the info Wicky, great to know about the Squadron HQ and reloading.

[Wicky]

Concrete Gun bunkers take about 7 direct hits to take out (side on and from rear) - and if the gun crews aren't all killed then it takes a couple or three more hits to finish them off or they might surrender.

Tried a breach team on the rear of a concrete gun bunker while they efficiently took the bunker out they were promptly mowed down by the crew inside.

[Michael Emrys]

Tried a breach team on the rear of a concrete gun bunker while they efficiently took the bunker out they were promptly mowed down by the crew inside.

Do you reckon having them supported by a squad of inf might have helped them survive?

Michael

[Wicky]

Do you reckon having them supported by a squad of inf might have helped them survive?

Michael

I was just testing with an AVRE squadron without suppport in a quick battle against an enemy force of just bunkers - but yes even some other dismounted engineers at a distance with their stens so they wouldn't toss grenades or explosives into the fray. I had to be careful with the AVREs not lending a helping a hand while the breach engineers did their work who might have got themselves a bit too close...

[A co]

When a crew bails out of a bunker the results can be very messy. From the point of view of the tac AI of the attacking troops, it seems to be as if the crew appeared unexpectedly out of nowhere. Sometimes the crew gets mowed down, sometimes they shoot several attackers, panic, and flee.

[Oddball_E8]

When a crew bails out of a bunker the results can be very messy. From the point of view of the tac AI of the attacking troops, it seems to be as if the crew appeared unexpectedly out of nowhere. Sometimes the crew gets mowed down, sometimes they shoot several attackers, panic, and flee.

Yeah, I learned long ago to alwasy bring a covering team to help the engineers taking out a bunker.

That way there's at least two units "looking" for the enemy when they come out. Increases the odds of the ensuing confusion to favor me.