Should "aquire" work for adjacent squares?

[Bulletpoint]

Just had this idea pop up: Wouldn't it be nice if units were able to aquire ammo from jeeps and trucks next to them, without actually have to climb in?

That way, playing WeGo you could replenish ammo much faster... seems more realistic too.

[sburke]

nice maybe, but as extensively debated here not necessarily more realistic. There is some contention that acquiring additional ammo is something 60 seconds may actually be considered short for.

[poesel]

Yes it should but it should not be instantaneous as it is right now.

Long debate here but no word from BFC.

[Bulletpoint]

It shouldn't be instantaneous of course. It's just the "climb in as crew or passengers to get ammo" I don't like so much.

But anyway, didn't want to open up a can of worms on the topic once more, just a quick idea.

[rocketman]

Problem sometimes arise when a squad is too big to enter a carrier (CW) to acquire anything at all. Has to be split first. And it takes more micro management. I'm all for acquire from outside a vehicle, but at a time penalty, like setting up a MG.

[Baneman]

Problem sometimes arise when a squad is too big to enter a carrier (CW) to acquire anything at all. Has to be split first. And it takes more micro management. I'm all for acquire from outside a vehicle, but at a time penalty, like setting up a MG.

A time penalty would be good - as it is now, if one guy has just one foot still considered "outside" the vehicle at the end of the WEGO turn, that's a whole extra turn before you can do anything with them.

[ChappyCanuck]

Bulletpoint: Agreed!

[Pelican Pal]

Yea, overhauling the acquire function would be great. The current system is busywork heavy.

[Erwin]

There are some vehicles that are fully crewed/occupied but that have spare ammo.

So, you need the additional step of dismounting the crew in one WEGO turn, so that an inf team can board in the 2nd WEGO turn, acquire in the 3rd WEGO turn, then disembark, then combine with rest of squad in the 4th WEGO turn.

Yes, CM2 needs a streamlined acquire process.

[weta_nz]

I 2nd (4th?) the idea of a time of a time penalty of some sort

[Hister]

Not having to climb,in the vehicle with would,be an improvement alredy!

[womble]

There are some vehicles that are fully crewed/occupied but that have spare ammo.

And some of those only the original crew can access the extra ammo, because no other team is permitted to embark into the vehicle... And it's never been a vehicle that I've been comfortable with having the crew exit with the intention of expending all that extra ammo...

[Erwin]

I tested this and (in CMRT at least) there are halftrack vehicles including the German flamer IIRC that you CAN disembark the crew, and mount inf to acquire ammo.

I know in CMSF there were notorious vehicles where that was impossible.

The point is that there needs to be an ACQUIRE revision as the current system is ridiculously cumbersome re mouse clicks and WEGO turns spent.

[Sailor Malan2]

Mouse clicks,fair enough, but you try moving a couple of hundred rounds and a few bazooka rounds out of a truck in less thank a minute...

[Migo441]

...but you try moving a couple of hundred rounds and a few bazooka rounds out of a truck in less thank a minute...

Indeed. I too was initially irritated by the cumbersome process of acquiring ammo. But the more I thought about it, the more I accepted the delays.

It's not so onerous. Plan ahead, take the time, and be grateful that the ammo can instantly transfer between magazines, stripper-clips, and belts.

[womble]

...be grateful that the ammo can instantly transfer between magazines, stripper-clips, and belts.

This. A thousand times, this. How long does it take to feed 30 rounds of .45 ACP into a tommy gun mag? Times 8 for the rest of the 250 rounds. How long if you have to pop every round out of the M1911A mags they were packed into the crate in? How long does it take to turn a 250 round belt into 12 and a half box mags for a BAR? Just like demo charges, the ammo turns up in precisely the configuration you want it.

One day, there will be a plausible inventory system that tracks the format of all the ammo on the field. Well, there would be, if 90% of gamers wouldn't turn it off or ignore it.

[MikeyD]

There seems to be a tug of war between one group that wants more automation and convenience and the other that wants more realistic time penalties and more intense micromanagement. If the two sides are evenly split that must mean BFC is doing something right!

[Michael Emrys]

BTW, at least among the Allies, I think that rifle ammo was stored in boxes and had to be loaded in clips and magazines by hand, although if I have it right British .303 came in strippers which made it easier to insert into the rifle's magazine. Perhaps the same applied to the K98? Ammo for MGs was usually already belted although I'm sure that in a pinch it could be belted by hand by the team, a laboriously time consuming process that would have been done before the shooting started. I am pretty sure that all pistol caliber ammo came in boxes and the loading into clips or magazines was left to the shooter. Anybody with more positive information on this subject would be appreciated as my own knowledge was picked up in passing while researching topics of more immediate interest. My intent is to reinforce and expand on what womble was offering in his #16.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

There seems to be a tug of war between one group that wants more automation and convenience and the other that wants more realistic time penalties and more intense micromanagement. If the two sides are evenly split that must mean BFC is doing something right!

I don't think this is all about automation vs. micromanagement. There are a lot of "proud nails" in the current Acquire system that I think everyone would like to see pounded down.

For example, it is currently impossible for a 4+ man unit to Acquire from a vehicle with a passenger capacity of <4, which has no basis in any kind of "real world" limitation (and yes, I have had this situation come up in games before).

Inability to undo an error is another big one for me; I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally acquired M2 Carbine instead of M2 .30-'06, and ended up either having to quit and re-loaded, or just lived with with a squad toting around several hundred rounds of an ammo they can't use for the rest of the battle.

And whatever your stance on the level of micromanagement the player should be allowed, less clicks for the same level of control is always a good thing; it does seem to me that with a bit of development time, a more elegant system could be implemented.

Not necessarily on my list of "most desired" game improvements, but still something that would be appreciated.

[YankeeDog]

BTW, at least among the Allies, I think that rifle ammo was stored in boxes and had to be loaded in clips and magazines by hand

Not necessarily. Substantial amounts of .30-'06 ammo for Garands was shipped directly from the U.S. already loaded into bandoliers in en bloc clips; you can actually find examples of these supplies still in the shipping box on the collector's market today if you search around. Some (but by no means all) M1 Carbine and Thompson SMG ammo also left the factories already loaded into mags.

Other ammo was shipped loose in boxes, and some was carried this way even by forward units. For example, IIRC the BAR gunner's load was divided between pre-loaded into mags and loose in boxes, partially to reduce weight and bulk. The BAR gunner also had an assistant who was supposed to be reloading mags at every opportunity though, something you have to assume is abstracted in CM.

MG units usually kept substantial amounts of ammo already belted in reserve caches. It might have shown up from rear areas in boxes, but it didn't stay that way for long when it reached forward areas.

What isn't represented in CM is that especially rifle-caliber ammo reserves would be in one form or the other, and therefore not readily available to supply any and all weapon types. E.g., if a given amount of .30-'06 ammo in a supply cache is already loaded into Garand en bloc clips, it can't be quickly coverted for use in a belt-fed MG, and vice versa.

[Bulletpoint]

I don't think anyone here argues that it should be instantaneous. But cut down on the micro-management when it doesn't improve gameplay. Nobody here complains that buddy aid is done automatically either, I think.

So maybe make aquire work like buddy aid? Move a unit close to a truck, and if they need ammo and have time, they will send over a couple of guys to get ammo, grabbing a reasonable amount for the weapons they have active in the squad (and maybe dumping back ammo they can't use any more)

[postfux123]

There seems to be a tug of war between one group that wants more automation and convenience and the other that wants more realistic time penalties and more intense micromanagement. If the two sides are evenly split that must mean BFC is doing something right!

One vote against micromanagment. I think even the actual system is a step toward micromanagment.

Automation and realism are no contradiction. Why not a button to activate "aquire" for the squad and one to allow it for the truck and when both are activated then just let them sit beside the truck until they have fully resupplied?

[LukeFF]

MG units usually kept substantial amounts of ammo already belted in reserve caches. It might have shown up from rear areas in boxes, but it didn't stay that way for long when it reached forward areas.

.30-06 machine gun ammo was shipped in 250-round cans ready to be fired. In fact, I have such a can that was designed for the M1917 - it has the indentation of a bullet on the lid, so the crew knew which way it was to be attached to the tripod.

[poesel]

Nobody here complains that buddy aid is done automatically either, I think.

Never use the words 'nobody', 'complain' and <any topic> together in this forum. You will be wrong.

For instance, I have complained about not being able to stop buddy aid. Had a HQ cross a street and one guy got shot (sniper probably). The team of now 4 is on the other side of the street but can't get nowhere from there. While they wait one by one they crawl back on the street to help their wounded comrade. After a while all five where dead in a heap on the street. It was heartbreaking!

And of course there have been lots of complaints by people where their troopers just didn't buddy aid although they nearly sat on the wounded. Ok, mostly from the camp that wanted to scavenge the weapons, but still.

[Baneman]

I don't think anyone here argues that it should be instantaneous...

Exactly - having the process take time is not in question.

But currently, the time it takes is extremely variable and subject to other game restrictions.

Eg. My original example - if, at the end of a WEGO turn, the acquiring squad is not fully in the vehicle, that wastes a full turn to pull in the offending leg/arm/last guy.

Also, if the vehicle isn't large enough for more than one squad, you have to exit the vehicle before another squad can board. But you can't give a "board vehicle" command while it's full, even if the passengers have a dismount command. Takes another turn.

So with a large-capacity truck, 2 squads can arrive in consecutive turns and be ammoed-up in 3 turns, but with a small truck, the same process can take 5-6 turns.