The Vehicle Pack is out!

[c3k]

whining =/= criticizing

[Ales Dvorak]

Making scenarios is only as time consuming or as difficult or as complex as YOU make it. I could go into the editor and twenty minutes later have a brand new scenario in my scenarios folder. Admittedly not a very inspiring scenario but still a playable scenario that's just as likely to be 'fun' as the most gruelingly worked on epic scenarios.

If you want to start making scenarios let me suggest you try starting minimalist - see how LITTLE you'd need to do and still get a playable scenario out of it.

If so, why people are willing to pay for scenarios?

[Big Boss]

I would gladly pay 10-20$ for a battle pack with good H2H missions (Still hoping for a BFC H2H campaign). For me that is more important than new vehicles. I like making own scenarios but it tend to be somewhat dull to play as you know everything about them.

[Erwin]

Saying people should make their own scenarios and campaigns is like saying "people should make their own models" - ultimately, "people should develop their own games".

If you don't have the inclination, talent, time or find any enjoyment in scenario-making activities but are willing to pay others for the service, what is the issue?

maybe there is a split in the community between primarily "players" and those who primarily like to study models and graphics. I dunno. But, to me the CM2 game series is about playing scenarios and campaigns... and after a point (reached long ago by BF) that is far more important than adding a few more vehicles.

[Trooper117]

Just bought the vehicle pack... will download some of the missions that guys are putting out to include them tomorrow and see how they fare

[Darknight (DC)]

Saying people should make their own scenarios and campaigns is like saying "people should make their own models" - ultimately, "people should develop their own games".

If you don't have the inclination, talent, time or find any enjoyment in scenario-making activities but are willing to pay others for the service, what is the issue?

maybe there is a split in the community between primarily "players" and those who primarily like to study models and graphics. I dunno. But, to me the CM2 game series is about playing scenarios and campaigns... and after a point (reached long ago by BF) that is far more important than adding a few more vehicles.

Actually, it's not like saying that at all. You're conveniently overlooking one very important fact: nobody in the community can make the models, while, in theory at least, everyone in the community could take part in making scenarios/campaigns.

If you 'don't have the inclination' towards scenario-making, then you are, by definition, at the mercy of those who do have that inclination (regardless of skill level). This assumes that the community members who do create content aren't just disgusted and weary of the negativity from certain quarters, which can discourage attempts to contribute positively.

And finally, you are lucky that there are those of us that do enjoy having the new models (which is separate from simply enjoying 'graphics', which isn't even a part of this argument) because having these models will hopefully inspire some more creativity from the community, which I assume you will enjoy (or possibly not) when they are eventually released.

From what you've stated, you don't seem to be planning to make any contribution to the CMBN community because you are a 'player', which is fine, but don't spout on about the lack of scenarios/campaigns when you'd have even less chance of getting new scenarios/campaigns without the release of the new vehicle pack, which is going to generate content in time; without the pack, the CMBN forum would be pretty barren right now.

[Hister]

without the pack, the CMBN forum would be pretty barren right now

.

Good to see you guys making the forum live even if for slaping each others with gloves. ⌒.⌒

[umlaut]

Darknight_Canuck:

I think you have some very good points - but you must remember that there are various ways to contribute to this community.

You´re certainly right that I as a scenario designer can be "disgusted and weary of the negativity from certain quarters, which can discourage attempts to contribute positively."

Personally, it is the lack of any response that I find most discouraging:

As when I last month released a Mod Set with a map that I had been working on for nearly six months - and judging from the feedback I get noone seems to be using it for anything.

I´ve also been close to scrapping my work on a micro campaign for the same map because of lack of response. When I asked for volunteer testers for the scenarios a couple of weeks ago I only got two responses.

One of the two was Erwin.

That didn´t surprise me a bit, because Erwin always offers to help when I need scenario testers. I have released four CM2 scenarios and I think Erwin has helped me test all of them. Very thoroughly too. That is certainly contributing in my book.

I don´t think that you can automatically expect people who purchase a PC game to contribute to it´s content. Many just want to play the game and use their creative skills somewhere else. That is perfectly fine with me.

But I agree that if you don´t support the people that help create the scenarios, then you´ll soon run out of free scenarios to play. And if you don´t contribute to the community you´ve forfeit the right to whine about lack of user made scenarios.

So everyone please read the scenario designer´s acknowledgements next time you play a scenario, raise a glass to the testers - and say: "Ask not what the community can do for me, but what I can do for the community"

[Darknight (DC)]

I completely agree with you that 'testing is contributing', though its pretty difficult for me to assume who may or may not help in that way.

I still think the basic point that the new models will drive additional content is what is being overlooked by a lot of the critics here.

[A Canadian Cat]

When I asked for volunteer testers for the scenarios a couple of weeks ago I only got two responses.

One of the two was Erwin.

That didn´t surprise me a bit, because Erwin always offers to help when I need scenario testers. I have released four CM2 scenarios and I think Erwin has helped me test all of them. Very thoroughly too. That is certainly contributing in my book.

Hear hear. Thank goodness for people like @Erwin then. Sorry I'm not contributing to your testing - I am over spent testing other stuff but I would certainly encourage others to try some testing. It is fun because you get to see new stuff and you get some influence on the direction.

I too would have liked to have seen some scenarios included in the pack but think Steve made his case in another thread that there will be more scenarios faster if they got the pack out rather than wait to release it with some. I see validity in the arguments for either choice.

Everyone volunteer for testing the next time someone asks - you will not regret it.

[Pelican Pal]

At the risk of irking you, I would point out that it's freaking 2014 ( nearly 2015 ). $10 or $20 IS chump change.

I don't know how expensive it is in the US, but here a movie ticket is £8 or £9.30 (after 5pm).

That's for roughly 2 hours of entertainment. ( $12.80 / $14.88 at today's exchange rate ).

So on an hours-entertainment-per-dollar scale, all the various pieces of CM are value for money.

Which makes the assumption that entertainment can be rated on dollars per hour and be accurate, or more generally that entertainment can be translated into a single "currency" so to speak.

Take two hours of CM, a movie, and a bar. Are they all equivalent?

Comparing how much time or whatever you get out of something and then comparing it something else seems flawed from the outset unless you have a way to quantify things like fun, memories, social connections, etc... This all assumes near infinite time too.

As for scenario design. I'll agree with Umlaut. Feedback for most work is pretty barren. Which isn't surprising really. Any single CM scenario can take people weeks to finish and while someone might play it at some point that could be months or even years from the date you released it.

I also wonder about the actual drive that new content brings to scenario design. Especially smaller packs like this. At minimum I would guess 6-10 scenarios to fully use all the content in the pack. And beside some quickly made scenarios and La Fierre causway I don't see a jump in output.

[John Kettler]

Pelican Pal,

The lack of feedback for the hardworking scenario designers is precisely why AARs were made mandatory for the CMx1 era RoW (Rumblings of War) tournament. This way, they were guaranteed feedback, some small acknowledgement of the outpouring of themselves and their testers. Here, for example, is Andrew Kulin's excellent AAR from Row V. It provides the complete rundown on what he planned to do in-game, what he did and how it turned out, together with explicit feedback for the scenario designers.

http://www.gregories.net/row/files/pm_Andrew_Kulin.pdf

And here's the best AAR of RoW V, a gem which one BigDuke6 a hand-built T-34/85 model, complete with tankodesantniki.

http://www.gregories.net/row/files/mb_Bigduke6.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sequoia]

So is it too early to say if Vehicle Pack sales were successful enough to allow for more Packs in the future?

[Aragorn2002]

Don't know where to put this and it ain't a gamebreaker, but the Grille is in Single Vehicles in the editor only available for the Heer, not for the Waffen SS.

[Trooper117]

Did the SS use that version of the Grille? (time to get the books out, lol)

edit... yep, SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf", "Das Reich" and "Leibstandarte" certainly used them...

[Aragorn2002]

Did the SS use that version of the Grille? (time to get the books out, lol)

edit... yep, SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf", "Das Reich" and "Leibstandarte" certainly used them...

So did the Hitlerjugend-division.