antaress73 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Hi, I guess this subject have been beaten to death already but let me voice my frustration anyway In some scenario, there was an undiscovered Stug sitting 400 meters away on totally elevated open ground (no woods nearby, defensive line) that destroyed my 5 t-34-76 and I had recon units with binoculars on a hill directly observing that spot for the better of 15 mins before sending the tanks. Other units also had the spot where the tank was sitting under observation. That's at least 30-40 pairs of eyes, some with binoculars that never noticed that stug sitting on open ground. I find that hard to believe and it cost me the scenario. Will there be some spotting adjustments done in the next patch ? I did everything right and it still wasnt enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antaress73 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 and ohhh. yes.. before that the 5 t-34s themselves were standing still and were in LOS of that Stug occupied spot and saw nothing (neither did the stug since he didnt shoot at them) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The phrase 'elevated open ground' may hold the key. If the elevation was a rolling hill the Stug with its roof-mounted gunner's sight may have been functionally hull down, the round clearing the crest by inches when fired. T-34's on the other end of the engagement probably were unable to get a bead on the turretless vehicle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The phrase 'elevated open ground' may hold the key. If the elevation was a rolling hill the Stug with its roof-mounted gunner's sight may have been functionally hull down, the round clearing the crest by inches when fired. T-34's on the other end of the engagement probably were unable to get a bead on the turretless vehicle. I think he's saying they didn't see it at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf66 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The phrase 'elevated open ground' may hold the key. If the elevation was a rolling hill the Stug with its roof-mounted gunner's sight may have been functionally hull down, the round clearing the crest by inches when fired. T-34's on the other end of the engagement probably were unable to get a bead on the turretless vehicle. What about this in the OP ? "recon units with binoculars on a hill directly observing that spot for the better of 15 mins" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf66 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think he's saying they didn't see it at all. That is my understanding as well ...... kinda like the invisible stealth StuG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 T-34-76 spotting is underestimated too much, I think. They should spot bad, but not so bad. Tank commander should see everything in narrow sector from the gunsight + spot targets marked by question marks. If he knows where is a target, he can rotate his periscope. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Were the trees in game turned 'off' - number of false LOS/LOF issues that have come up because a player forgot they turned the trees off... Not that I would ever make that mistake. Oh no... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 ^^^ Alt-T and Alt-K have been responsible for many reports of broken spotting. Or so I've heard. On the other hand, the nature of the action spots and the spotting table may also be at fault. Pix would help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 A savegame file would really be best. If the situation is exactly as described, then there may be a bug or issue. However, (and not to cast aspersions on the OP), I'd estimate that 90%+ of the times when we look into an LOS/LOF issue like this, there's some sort of factor, whether it's misreading the lay of the terrain, Alt-T trees, Alt-K smoke, unit stance (e.g., Hiding) or something else that explains it. The other <10% of the time it's genuinely a bug or issue that needs to be reported. Which is why a savegame is so useful; LOS/LOF issues are very tricky and time-consuming to test. Without hard evidence we may spend a lot of time chasing shadows, trying to replicate a problem that may or may not exist. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I agree this sounds strange, so please don´t see the comments below as an attempt to place the blame on you rather than the game, but: If none of your units saw that StuG for 15 minutes, how can you be sure it was there all the time? Could it be that it moved there later? And on a bit of af side note: I am currently reading Otto Carius´ "Tigers in the Mud" and he is repeatedly mentioning the T-34 crews´ reluctance to open their hatches in battle. He says that this was a great advantage to the germans, because it made the T-34´s practically blind. So maybe this is just - intended or unintended - realism? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 And on a bit of af side note: I am currently reading Otto Carius´ "Tigers in the Mud" and he is repeatedly mentioning the T-34 crews´ reluctance to open their hatches in battle. He says that this was a great advantage to the germans, because it made the T-34´s practically blind. So maybe this is just - intended or unintended - realism? http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=117007&page=3 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 If none of your units saw that StuG for 15 minutes, how can you be sure it was there all the time? Could it be that it moved there later? I think it has to be assumed that at least 'one' of his units must have spotted the StuG otherwise he wouldn't have known it was there at all. Unless, of course, he is playing in Scenario Author Test Mode or something similar. IIRC if the player selects the spotted vehicle then the icons of the friendly units who can see it are lightened relative to the icons for other units. As others have mentioned though, without a save game there isn't much anyone can do to see if there is an issue or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 What kind of ranges are we talking about? Non moving or firing vehicles (or anything really) are difficult to spot at distances of 1000+ meters. Did the StuG move or fire during that time? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antaress73 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 range was 400 meters. trees were on. Like I said... I had a recon sqaud on a nearby hill observing with direct LOS to where the Stug magically appeared for at least 15 turns. It is a scenario where the russians are attacking a prepared defensive line (dont want to give spoilers here). The tank was smack in the middle of an open ground elevated ground. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellas Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Hi antaress, lots of hardcore CM fans here that will defend even bugs as features. I am struggling with them,too sometimes. And I am not the most experienced player yet, but the more I dive into the game, the more impressive the spotting mechanism becomes to me. IMO the beauty is, that is delivers plausible results without becoming boring. But if you discover something that looks strange, it is of highest importance that you save it. The spotting mechanism is so beautifully complex, that, at least in my experience, it is simply not possible to make conclusions without the ability to reproduce it and recheck it. How often am I frustrated, when I lose a tank! Ofcourse it was not my fault! But when the anger vanishes and I look back at the scene, then almost always the result was in the probabilistic range that deems realistic. For scenarios I had done some spotting tests to find out how long it takes to spot ATGs and stationary tanks at certain distances in different terrain. Depending on how much is exposed by tanks, it can take up to 20 minutes and more, until they are spotted, if they are perfectly hull down. Sometimes they are never spotted, if they can kill fast enough. But what I really highly recommend is to approach a problem with the mindset, that the software and it's algorithms overall work really, really well and that the reason for the delivered result should be searched, investigated with a positive mindset. Otherwise one tends to make too quick conclusions that are not adequate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The challenge is with no save game file there is nothing to investigate. Save game gives something tangible to look at and check. No save game, well... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Hi antaress, lots of hardcore CM fans here that will defend even bugs as features. I am struggling with them,too sometimes. I call b**l s***t Oh it is true that there are many of us who are very supportive of the game and we have many spirited discussions but every single one of those you might accuse of defending bugs as features has found real bugs, discussed them, disagreed about them, reported them and had them fixed. Every single one of us. What people fail to realize is that the vast, and I do mean vast, majority of "this is not working the game is broken" posts are just plain wrong. Period. And I am not the most experienced player yet, but the more I dive into the game, the more impressive the spotting mechanism becomes to me. IMO the beauty is, that is delivers plausible results without becoming boring. <attempt at humour>Oh, wait, wait did I read that right? Are you saying the game is working. Excellent another one that supports the game in the face of obvious bugs excellent we could use more help. </attempt at humour> But if you discover something that looks strange, it is of highest importance that you save it. The spotting mechanism is so beautifully complex, that, at least in my experience, it is simply not possible to make conclusions without the ability to reproduce it and recheck it. Back to being serious. This is true when stuff that seems mysterious happens having a saved game and screen shots is gold. At the very least it can lead to you learning more about the game. Every now and then you might even start the process of finding a bug. How often am I frustrated, when I lose a tank! Ofcourse it was not my fault! But when the anger vanishes and I look back at the scene, then almost always the result was in the probabilistic range that deems realistic. Indeed - very common to look back and say oh yeah that makes sense. But at the same time don't forget that even if you have figured out all the angles and positioned your unit perfectly the other guy is trying to do the same. As long as you both hold your ground some pixel troops are going to become casualties and it still could be your perfectly positioned guys that loose out. That is just the way the ball bounces and you have to roll with it and keep going. I actually think this is the number one reason people get frustrated and start trying to find reasons the game is broken. They just cannot accept that even the best plans can be thwarted and the best troops can loose the day. But what I really highly recommend is to approach a problem with the mindset, that the software and it's algorithms overall work really, really well and that the reason for the delivered result should be searched, investigated with a positive mindset. Otherwise one tends to make too quick conclusions that are not adequate. Excellent advice indeed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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