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Combat mission and steam.


lordhedgwich

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But there is much to argue, his entire post is pretty much BS. Which means it is beneficial for the customer base to speak up and let their will be known.

This part alone sums it up:

"We've rejected that system since the start of Battlefront 15 years ago. Steam isn't fundamentally different and therefore we are not interested in having them sell our games." BZZZZZZZZ WRONG. Like I said, their business model is still based in the 1990s.

it is clear he has absolutely not clue what he is talking about *with regards to Steam*. As mentioned earlier, steam doesn't force sales, steam doesn't take 40%, and Steam is not retail sale from 15 years ago.

I mean how can you take a thing he writes seriously and sit there and claim he knows best when half what he wrote is straight up BS!?!

Not to mention this part, this is my favorite: "Nor do we get any compensation for lost sales due to their easily hacked DRM." LOLOLOLOLOL. Not only can they include their own DRM while using Steam, but their DRM is not very effective anyways. It is a matter of seconds of googling (or just going straight to it if you know the right places to look) to find hacked versions of their game right now, with their DRM. Living in the 90s...

If BFC talked to Steam I believe they are under obligation to not reveal any details of a possible deal. We've gotten some info about what a Steam release actually entails over the years, but it has been in tiny amounts from disparate places.

I think the core issues that exists are that they need to have people work on getting the game Steam ready. Which is a problem because there are only two developers. Any work on Steam will take away from their current release schedule.

And that they are not confirmed to have a bigger audience. Now we've heard that Steam takes a 30% cut and doesn't force sales and whatnot.

So lets say they sell 50 games at $50. That means that here BFC gets $2,500. Now a Steam release at the same price and the same sales would net them $1,750 after the 30% Steam cut. So to get the same income they would need to sell a little under 80 copies. So they need to be aware that unless they get over that number of sales they will be losing money if their current customers buy from Steam instead of their store.

The numbers, of course, are made up. However, they need to be sure that if they cannibalize their customers they still come out ahead which requires an certain number of new sales. These new sales can't be confirmed so they are playing it safe.

As for DRM. I think a game like CM doesn't need it. There simply isn't enough of a population to make piracy effective. I think right now you can get CM:SF and the Marines module and maybe unpatched CM:BN, and that is only if you decide to wait for about a week to download it.

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And sure, maybe that person could have been more polite. However, that doesn't mean that y'all need to start bitching them out. Just answer the question they have in a polite manner. Maybe ask them to be more polite. But I've seen one too many threads that have 2 pages of regulars ****ting on some new guy.

As I recall a little of that has happened your way.

I must admit that the main charectors that visit this site have beliefs in certain ways of acting and communicating when bringing concepts or complaints to the table. Its called, showing a little respect and communicating in a polite manner. When it is not shown by a person in their comments. Yes, there are plenty here ready to bounce on them and give them some of their own rude comments right back to them.

In general, you get back what you give out on this Forum. So if you do not like how many forum members communicate with you, it is because of how you communicate with them.

It is actually one of the things I like about this forum, there is some expectation to act somewhat mature, those that dont, well they and their concepts are normally bashed because of the source it is coming from. Sounds

elitist to me.

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But there is much to argue, his entire post is pretty much BS. Which means it is beneficial for the customer base to speak up and let their will be known.

No, your posts are pretty much BS. You aren't a publisher, you aren't a distributor. You just have your opinion, which is based on....nothing.

This part alone sums it up:

"We've rejected that system since the start of Battlefront 15 years ago. Steam isn't fundamentally different and therefore we are not interested in having them sell our games." BZZZZZZZZ WRONG. Like I said, their business model is still based in the 1990s.

Digital download or physical copy. Plenty modern business model.

Could BFC make more money using Steam? Very likely. Is the process worth it to them? Clearly not based on their statements.

So, when you say it's beneficial for the customer base to speak up and let their will be known, you're right...with respect to the games.

With how they run their business, "our" will means nothing and as long as they stay in business, there's not a damn thing anyone can say about it.

/thread

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Grognards not liking change - strawman

New users not being welcome - strawman

Age differential as THE factor supporting steam - strawman

Man with no business or contract experience claiming Steve doesn't know what he is talking about - priceless

Okay asterix, you have managed to insult a good portion of the actual active purchasing community and the owners of the game in one thread. Excellent job I must say. Most of your ilk takes a little longer to achieve that level of over hyper ego. Kudos to you.

Honestly I would take you a lot more seriously if you actually bought the game. As it is I am not very impressed with your level of concern about BF's success if you aren't even willing to do that. Unfortunately that in turn undermines everything you have to say. The point from most of the folks here, those who really would like to see BF on steam and those of us who don't really care is that the main thing is we want the game. Whatever it takes we will own and play it as it fills a unique place for us. You do not however seem to have that same level of interest. Yours seems to be more (from my perspective anyway) a casual interest. If it is convenient on steam you'd purchase it, but if not you'll pass. Admittedly there is a hard core community here just as there probably is for any game. We are not hardcore about HOW BF sells, just that they continue to sell. Coming in here and telling them how they should market their game when you have not done the one thing that EVERYONE can agree on as the first step in keeping them going - purchasing - does seem to not be putting your best foot forward and is almost guaranteed to engender the response you have gotten. Sorry, that is just the way life works. Us old heads are kind of used to it having had it thrown in our face for years. Intended or not it just reeks of arrogance and self entitlement which seems to be the hallmark of a generation that seems to think the social behavior on the internet has some different rules than one would use in a face to face conversation. No that is not behavior driven by age, but the internet allows certain behavior to pass that would have gotten a totally different response prior to this age of anonymity. Like a beer poured over one's head.

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Honestly I would take you a lot more seriously if you actually bought the game.

So, let me get this straight...

If I did the exact opposite of my goal you'd take me more seriously?

If I validated the sales model I am railing against, you'd take me more seriously?

If I didn't stand behind my belief, you'd take me more seriously?

...

oh wait, I remember, you are also the guy that disputed my claim that people would buy it if it was on steam, claiming they wouldn't because I am not buying it because it is not on steam. (yeah, I know everyone else, that makes no sense but that was his argument).

You don't need to worry sburke, I am not too concerned if you take me seriously or not because you have clearly demonstrated you cannot comprehend simple logic in the first place. I'll just stick to concerning myself with some of the others here ;)

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Actually did he not point out how to get a pirated version.

More likely has never bought the game, but has been playing pirated version. Now what would you think about that.

I have only played the demo and watched youtube videos.

If I was stealing the game I'd have no reason to concern myself with buying it, right? That said, my statements about DRM (feel free to re read them) were to dispute and discredit BF's 'all knowing authority' about game distribution. Since many here claim BF are the best and smartest and make the best decisions possible, yet many of the supporting arguments BF has directly made for some decisions were completely false, such as their DRM being any sort of real protection (or the fact that DRM provides and value add period, perhaps if they stopped wasting resources on DRM they could make even better games, but whatever).

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Its one thing to make a suggestion to a business owner of how they might improve their business, but to constantly pester them especially after the fact crosses the line.

You then enter the realm of telling a business owner how they Should be running their business. That will almost always envoke a stern response.

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Its one thing to make a suggestion to a business owner of how they might improve their business, but to constantly pester them especially after the fact crosses the line.

You then enter the realm of telling a business owner how they Should be running their business. That will almost always envoke a stern response.

I totally understand and even agree... Hence why I only have posted in one thread regarding this, have not attempted to contact BF multiples times directly through other means, and am not even directing my comments toward BF at all.

All of my posts have been responses to others engaging me with responses- hence the 'discussion topic'. I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?

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So, let me get this straight...

If I did the exact opposite of my goal you'd take me more seriously?

If I validated the sales model I am railing against, you'd take me more seriously?

If I didn't stand behind my belief, you'd take me more seriously?

...

oh wait, I remember, you are also the guy that disputed my claim that people would buy it if it was on steam, claiming they wouldn't because I am not buying it because it is not on steam. (yeah, I know everyone else, that makes no sense but that was his argument).

You don't need to worry sburke, I am not too concerned if you take me seriously or not because you have clearly demonstrated you cannot comprehend simple logic in the first place. I'll just stick to concerning myself with some of the others here ;)

Well if nothing else I am helping you get your post count up. I think the jury is still out on whether I can understand simple logic. While you have shown you are simple, you have not displayed any real grasp of logic. Either way I would agree I do not understand you. This supposed stand on principle is a load of crap. I will not buy your game till you change your sales model, man the ramparts!! We must defend our right to buy your product how we want to!!

Good luck concerning yourself with others here, the general consensus seems to be not very favorable. Back to the game!! (And not just the demo version)

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I totally understand and even agree... Hence why I only have posted in one thread regarding this, have not attempted to contact BF multiples times directly through other means, and am not even directing my comments toward BF at all.

All of my posts have been responses to others engaging me with responses- hence the 'discussion topic'. I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?

Depends. Direct response to other people engaging you can be viewed as "combative".

Keep in mind too that you and others could be viewed as representative of what to expect on Steam-right or wrong that may happen. Put yourself in the shoes of BF who is already predisposed to not favoring Steam.

If they get this much flak here, then how much might they expect if they did migrate fully to Steam and be forced to respond to demands for this and that?

If I were BF and got this sort of flak here I would become even more resistant because responding to calls for this and that takes away from doing what i do best...design games.

Steam and games modded have issues from time to time. Will all the modders too be forced to join steam workshop?

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Depends. Direct response to other people engaging you can be viewed as "combative".

Keep in mind too that you and others could be viewed as representative of what to expect on Steam-right or wrong that may happen. Put yourself in the shoes of BF who is already predisposed to not favoring Steam.

If they get this much flak here, then how much might they expect if they did migrate fully to Steam and be forced to respond to demands for this and that?

If I were BF and got this sort of flak here I would become even more resistant because responding to calls for this and that takes away from doing what i do best...design games.

Steam and games modded have issues from time to time. Will all the modders too be forced to join steam workshop?

Steam workshop is allowed/enabled by the developer, I have games on Steam that I have mods for that do not require steam workshop. Modders shouldn't have to do anything in regards to that, if anything workshop functionality would just make it easier to organize/distribute mods.

As for the "flak" BF is receiving from this guy if it makes BF "even more resistant" than they have more problems than a few people over the course of two years coming on and suggesting Steam.

I think we all need to remember that we all want what is best for this game, yes even the guy proposing arguments for Steam (Which I largely agree with). The hostility comes from two very different ideas of what Steam is going to mean for BF.

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Depends. Direct response to other people engaging you can be viewed as "combative".
no doubt, but is it not a two way street? For each post I make that is because someone else has been "combative" as well, by posting to me, no? Unless that 'combative' trait only applies to outsiders (back to the whole elitism thing, but I digress).

Keep in mind too that you and others could be viewed as representative of what to expect on Steam-right or wrong that may happen. Put yourself in the shoes of BF who is already predisposed to not favoring Steam.
I would only hope! Since I am a desiring customer, wanting to put money in their pocket! I would hope such a positive expectation would be had of steam users!

Unfortunately I am not representative of a majority of Steam and am probably only a smaller minority of steam users that desire to put money in BF's pocket; but from what I have read here I am actually not what people think Steam users are, since people seem to think no new Steam users will buy the game and all Steam will do is steal sales from existing customers.

Notice I have made no demands about the actual game being changed in any way- yes, I have been critical of certain aspects (UI, for example) but I also overtly and directly indicated those were ok issues, not a major problem, and dismissible.

Steam and games modded have issues from time to time. Will all the modders too be forced to join steam workshop?

Steam workshop is optional. Thats the great thing, it does not need to be implemented in any way, shape, or form. And let us pretend that CM releases on Steam and thousands of evil little Steamers start demanding steam workshop support; well guess what, BF doesn't have to comply if they don't want to! Just as they do not comply to add it to Steam at all right now, why do so many people here seem to think that all of a sudden BF has to change EVERYTHING to accommodate every request by each and every single steam user?

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The thought of going on Steam (for any game) and having to deal with childish rants like this entire thread is hardly inspiring.

I suspect this is a "game" to see how many forum pages this stuff can take up. I recommend simply disengaging from discussion as otherwise we are all "enablers".

Anyone who has a good idea backed up with evidence re how CM could be better marketed should be contacting BF directly and let them analyze the data.

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Intended or not it just reeks of arrogance and self entitlement which seems to be the hallmark of a generation that seems to think the social behavior on the internet has some different rules than one would use in a face to face conversation.

Y'know, s, I wonder about that part. See, I don't get out much any more and so don't have the same opportunities to mix with young people—say under 40—that I used to. So I actually don't know if they expect to have their half-baked ideas respected out in the real world or they will throw an infantile tantrum the same way they do on the internet. I suspect that the majority of the young people are reasonably decent, intelligent, and civil people that I would have no trouble getting along with. But maybe there is a subset of overgrown brats whose mission in life seems to be to make everyone else as miserable as possible and are happy to utilize electronic media to inflict their grotesque personalities on the whole online world.

Michael

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I suspect this is a "game" to see how many forum pages this stuff can take up. I recommend simply disengaging from discussion as otherwise we are all "enablers".

You are wrong Erwin. I'm sorry but it is you who is making sweeping statements about this entire thread being childish, get a grip feller. I have been part of this forum for years and my part here is not as an enabler of a "game", its part of a discussion about how some of us think that battlefront could be doing better, and are trying to express that opinion.

It is obvious that there is two different sides to this argument, and despite calls that the majority want the contrary, many people do want to see Combat Mission on steam.

Infact, to further reinforce our point, just before I saw an advert for Close Combat: Back to Caen on Steam. I'm sure most of us here played and enjoyed the Close Combat series. A game that still puts gameplay over graphics has above 70% reviews, on steam. Some of the reviews even say that a game like this is overdue on steam. Go figure.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/297750/

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Heh, you folks are kind of right; generally change is brought forth byt he efforts of the youth of a population. Look at Hong Kong today, it is (generally) a student movement driving the fight for democracy. Look at the battle for gay rights in the United States, again, generally a youth driven movement.

Older people (generally) are more conservative and fight to keep things the way they are, for better or worse; failing to see or recognize the benefits of change. So while you see it as youth feeling entitled for whatever they want, I see it as youth being progressive and driving positive action while the conservative older generations strive for the status quo.

Thank goodness for the youth then, else we'd all be riding horses and beating our wives, right?

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Funny thing is, this thread was fine until post 40. Folks talked about BFs position, some expressed a desire that it change. Most expressed an ambivalence but responded to the OP in a non aggressive manner. And then the geriatric brigade comment comes out It frankly wasn't that bad, but it starts a negative turn and also is frankly off relative to the discussion preceding it.

It wasn't the geriatric cheering brigade that started the negative turn nor was there any "resistance to change". Hell there was even a suggestion from another old hand about using kick starter.

Seems to me the negativity and bull headedness started from one particular direction. It settles down a little and then we get this.

I don't own a single Combat Mission game. I'd like to own them all.

If they were on Steam, I would probably buy them all right this moment. But they are not. Thus I will continue waiting.

So no matter what people may try and claim, not being on Steam is losing sales. It is not just a matter of product awareness but actual decision making on part of potential customers. I like Steam's convenience and game management and do not want to be bothered with BF's asinine 1990's sales model.

I will keep checking back every couple of months to see if they choose to be customer friendly or not, but until then I will not be buying their games.

That is a first post, it is negative, combative unhelpful and self indulgent. Get off your high horse asterix. I did prison time defending my principles, you did what, not buy a game? How dare you compare your little egotistical trip to folks risking their health and well being fighting for real causes like the folks in Hong Kong. That is so pathetic it defies belief.

You think these youth movements happen in a vacuum, ever hear of stonewall? Where do you think that generation is now. Oh yeah voting to change the status quo, becoming lawyers who can actually change things, educating the young on a different set of beliefs. Or did you think all these ideas sprung spontaneously out of nowhere as completely original ideas. Typical arrogance.

edit addition -Oh and by the way, it seems the people beating their wives these days are young NFL players.

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It strikes me that there are a few commonalities on all these Steam threads.

There are those who I suspect have spent time in the past defending CMx1 to people who couldn't see past the graphics. They fear the same thing happening to CMx2 on "the Steam forums". Despite the fact that CMx2 titles are perfectly decent looking. As far as I am concerned, this is not a series that needs defending.

I don't think they understand that the audience they fear is more likely to be on Xbox or Playstation. The majority of Steam users are PC and Mac users in their 30s or older, most of whom will never bother with the forums. For them, Steam is a convenient storefront which occasionally leads them to try out titles they may not have bought in a retail store - Kerbal Space Programme, or Crusader Kings for example. They may well have heard of Combat Mission, but it isn't in their favourite store, time is short, and their library has other stuff in it that they haven't played properly yet. I'm 43, 2 kids, computer gaming since the early 80s, with a bit of hobby cash for PC gaming. A decade ago, the idea of digital downloads via something like Steam would have been anathema. But now, with limited time and patience for the old days of seeking out patches and games I am much more likely to buy something on a whim on Steam during a stolen half hour of PC time, usually after browsing the strategy titles. And if I'm lucky I might get to play it within a week of purchase. I believe there are many people on Steam who would dip the toe with CMSF, either on a whim or because they half remember the series. Or because the setting is a bit contemporary and there is nothing else quite like it out there. These are the people who would be drawn in by a video in the Steam store.

A year ago Steam had 75 million active users, many of them like me. I would love BFC to get a tiny bit of that action so that we could see a bit of cash spent on bringing the CM series on.

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They may well have heard of Combat Mission, but it isn't in their favourite store, time is short, and their library has other stuff in it that they haven't played properly yet. I'm 43, 2 kids, computer gaming since the early 80s, with a bit of hobby cash for PC gaming. A decade ago, the idea of digital downloads via something like Steam would have been anathema. But now, with limited time and patience for the old days of seeking out patches and games I am much more likely to buy something on a whim on Steam during a stolen half hour of PC time, usually after browsing the strategy titles. And if I'm lucky I might get to play it within a week of purchase. I believe there are many people on Steam who would dip the toe with CMSF, either on a whim or because they half remember the series. Or because the setting is a bit contemporary and there is nothing else quite like it out there. These are the people who would be drawn in by a video in the Steam store.

That intersects neatly with the demographics that BFC is interested in and they may reach through Steam. I have been tracking the Steam forums for Command: Modern Air Naval Operations, and yes, there's a lot of butthurt trolls with staggering amounts of self-entitlement who have been bombing the forums with threads complaining about the price, calling names at people buying it and at the developers.

Funny thing about Steam is that you can actually check those trolling persons profiles and you see curious things. Like the guy - "Liam Neeson Punching Wolves" or something like that, check it out yourselves - with 605 titles in his Steam Library, who has written over 80 "reviews" of games which are usually shorter than a paragraph and you can see he plays each title for an average of 5 to 6 hours.

Is people like that representative of the kind of people who hang out on Steam? Not really - many here do hang out on Steam and we are able to handle ourselves in a more intelligent way in this digital environment where one can get stuff - sometimes at outrageous prices -on a whim. Looks to me that there's a quite vocal minority of people with a very ugly consumerist addiction hanging out there, who go to great lengths to "police" those developers that "dare" to put their products at a price point beyond their reach (or not really, 605 games is an awful LOT of cash and indication of someone having a problem).

What I also see are former servicemen - or active ones - coming forward to the forums flabbergasted at finding something like Command on Steam. And who don't mind the price point and never had heard about Command before.

A similar thing I can see in some simulators, like IL-2 Battle Of Stalingrad. Leaving aside that those devs are alienating their potential audience in weird ways, a great deal of the noise on those forums were people coming from that War Thunder thing, complaining about the game being a scam (!!!). Now, do those forum antics matter at all? I don't think so - it's way too cheap to rant on Steam forums, not so cheap to rant on a Steam review (that requires you to buy the game).

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That intersects neatly with the demographics that BFC is interested in and they may reach through Steam. I have been tracking the Steam forums for Command: Modern Air Naval Operations, and yes, there's a lot of butthurt trolls with staggering amounts of self-entitlement who have been bombing the forums with threads complaining about the price, calling names at people buying it and at the developers.

Funny thing about Steam is that you can actually check those trolling persons profiles and you see curious things. Like the guy - "Liam Neeson Punching Wolves" or something like that, check it out yourselves - with 605 titles in his Steam Library, who has written over 80 "reviews" of games which are usually shorter than a paragraph and you can see he plays each title for an average of 5 to 6 hours.

Is people like that representative of the kind of people who hang out on Steam? Not really - many here do hang out on Steam and we are able to handle ourselves in a more intelligent way in this digital environment where one can get stuff - sometimes at outrageous prices -on a whim. Looks to me that there's a quite vocal minority of people with a very ugly consumerist addiction hanging out there, who go to great lengths to "police" those developers that "dare" to put their products at a price point beyond their reach (or not really, 605 games is an awful LOT of cash and indication of someone having a problem).

What I also see are former servicemen - or active ones - coming forward to the forums flabbergasted at finding something like Command on Steam. And who don't mind the price point and never had heard about Command before.

A similar thing I can see in some simulators, like IL-2 Battle Of Stalingrad. Leaving aside that those devs are alienating their potential audience in weird ways, a great deal of the noise on those forums were people coming from that War Thunder thing, complaining about the game being a scam (!!!). Now, do those forum antics matter at all? I don't think so - it's way too cheap to rant on Steam forums, not so cheap to rant on a Steam review (that requires you to buy the game).

Once again people don't seem to be listening to what Battlefront has said time and time again. They looked at Steam and it doesn't fit their needs or desires. Making comparisons and saying Command is on Steam so CM should be on there too because Command is a hard combat sim like Combat Mission demonstrates a lack of due diligence.

Look at the Company largely behind Command:Modern Air Naval Operations. Its Matrix Games. They have a much larger collections of games-many of which they never developed-but acquired. They bought the rights to Close Combat. They work in conjunction with Slitherine to put out games. In essence they operate like Microsoft does. The develop some software-but also acquire other software titles and go into partnership deals with other companies. They operate like a corporate entity and have the back end to deal and make all this happen. Steam fits their needs and they have the staff, procedures and business model to support this.

Battlefront on the other hand operates on a smaller scale and on a more craftsman like level. They are not the Budweiser model who mass produces, markets and sells on a large scale. They are more like the craftsman beer who operates on a smaller scale.

BF could scale up and try to operate like Matrix, but they have decided not to. Why they choose to operate like this is their business. They have their reasons-it may just be personal and something they decided amongst themselves.

You can choose to respect their decision and support them or you can choose not to, but really trying to force them into something they wish not to is just a waste of time.

Its also very inconsiderate.

IMO: Its time to lock this thread like the gun control ones.

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