Combat mission and steam.

[Asterix909]

wow 1 post and the first one is this....

Why would I have more posts if I do not play?

Today was just one of many times I have googled "Combat mission Steam" and finally decided to actually voice my opinion on the matter rather than just resigning myself for another couple months.

[Wicky]

On a related note - CMBN is available on Apple's App Store, still stalled at v1.10 with no way to upgrade due to problems with Apple. IIRC it has to differ from the version Battlefront sell themselves. So if they did a Steam version along with the patches and upgrades (and methods to apply them) there would presumably be multiple Mac & PC versions needing intensive testing, and support depending on who and where it was bought from.

Seems reasonable to keep it as simple as possible, inhouse and available for anyone (in the right country with an internet connection to BFC's Store.

[Rosseau]

Well, one of the CMANO devs says the game is doing very well on Steam on the $60 sale. As expected, there's been a huge "pricing" outcry from the same idiots who'll spend $50 for a ninja fighting game. When the price goes up to $80 it will be rougher.

Matrix said they'd never go to Steam, and I'm sure we'll see BFC there in our lifetime - with all due respect. In fact, if CMANO, an extremely hardcore partly finished game is selling there, how could CMx2 possibly do poorly?

Unlike, EA, if BFC makes more money, we get better games, and we get them quicker. We just don't want them to do too good on Steam and decide to retire on us. I have no hope of retiring ever, why should they

[Asterix909]

As expected, there's been a huge "pricing" outcry from the same idiots who'll spend $50 for a ninja fighting game.

This argument comes up all the time as a reason to not be on Steam for these types of games; but it is a poor argument because those "idiots" are not going to buy the game regardless so what difference does it make if the complain?

The people who will pay that much will pay that much just as they do today, only from a larger potential customer base which leads to larger sales. its simple math and logic to figure that one out. (and I am not trying to push that argument on to you, just using your mention of it for my own point)

Not to mention its not like BF has to move 100% over to Steam (yes it takes more resources to maintain different versions, but expanded sales would hopefully make up for and go beyond that), all Steam does is allow existing and potential customers one more option to purchase through.

As a total side, Valve has shown that reduced price sales ultimately result in MORE revenue. Period. Frequently putting a game on sale on Steam will generate MORE revenue over time than leaving it at 'full price' over time. That is because the price complainers, holdouts, or lower budget users then have the opportunity to buy the game which they otherwise would never, ever have bought. All that said, Combat Mission is not a $60 game series. Its <35 dollars for most and as low as 10 dollars for one. So price complainers are really not relevant to this issue.

[Baneman]

I don't own a single Combat Mission game. I'd like to own them all.

If they were on Steam, I would probably buy them all right this moment. But they are not. Thus I will continue waiting.

So no matter what people may try and claim, not being on Steam is losing sales. It is not just a matter of product awareness but actual decision making on part of potential customers. I like Steam's convenience and game management and do not want to be bothered with BF's asinine 1990's sales model.

I will keep checking back every couple of months to see if they choose to be customer friendly or not, but until then I will not be buying their games.

I do find it strange that although you seem to fancy the game, you'll deny yourself simply because it's not on Steam.

Sure, BFC games are not on Steam, but they're not that hard to download and install.

I mean, I don't like Steam. But I will still give in if it's a game I really want ( eg. Hearts of Iron III, IL2 Cliffs of Dover ).

You do like Steam, but aren't prepared to move a little out of your comfort zone for something you're interested in - I mean, it may annoy you somewhat, but you only have to do it for the purchase, thereafter it's click the icon and away ... just like everything else.

[Asterix909]

I do find it strange that although you seem to fancy the game, you'll deny yourself simply because it's not on Steam.

Sure, BFC games are not on Steam, but they're not that hard to download and install.

I mean, I don't like Steam. But I will still give in if it's a game I really want ( eg. Hearts of Iron III, IL2 Cliffs of Dover ).

You do like Steam, but aren't prepared to move a little out of your comfort zone for something you're interested in - I mean, it may annoy you somewhat, but you only have to do it for the purchase, thereafter it's click the icon and away ... just like everything else.

Valid observation. But to do so would endorse a ****ty model, speaking with my wallet matters more than my complaining posts here; if I buy the games anyways they have no incentive to change (for the better).

But I also own many, many games. I have more games than time to play them, so I really do not mind denying myself a few extra to avoid inconveniences associated with them.

Here are some direct quotes all from unique posters on a forum thread regarding Combat Mission games:

"I bought Battle for Normandy, but unintalled it only to find out that my download link expired and I have no way to get the game anymore."

"I had Shock Force with the Marine module but I don't have the download link anymore."

"I highly recommend searching gamersgate or other d2d services before buying from battlefront."

"I had the Marines module but due to Battlefront's awesomeness I can't get the installer anymore."

All of the posters praise the games (not shown) but despise the method of distribution (shown). Steam eliminates any worries like these and allows me to play cross platform on different devices, very easily, as well as puts all my games in one, easy to access, auto updating place.

I have even *re-bought* games on Steam that I own on cd, dvd, or other download distribution. It is not a matter of money, but principle for me.

I can assure you that if I did not have a backlog of existing games I have impulse bought (on Steam) but yet to put a single minute into, I would buy the CM games from BF right now... but it is an inconvenience to do so and ultimately not worth it to me, vs the benefit of financially punishing BF for their silliness.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Here are some direct quotes all from unique posters on a forum thread regarding Combat Mission games:

"I bought Battle for Normandy, but unintalled it only to find out that my download link expired and I have no way to get the game anymore."

"I had Shock Force with the Marine module but I don't have the download link anymore."

"I highly recommend searching gamersgate or other d2d services before buying from battlefront."

"I had the Marines module but due to Battlefront's awesomeness I can't get the installer anymore."

Those observations are out of date. There is no longer a time limit on downloads.

[Asterix909]

Thanks for that info, I honestly did not know that.

[sburke]

I don't own a single Combat Mission game. I'd like to own them all.

If they were on Steam, I would probably buy them all right this moment. But they are not. Thus I will continue waiting.

So no matter what people may try and claim, not being on Steam is losing sales. It is not just a matter of product awareness but actual decision making on part of potential customers. I like Steam's convenience and game management and do not want to be bothered with BF's asinine 1990's sales model.

I will keep checking back every couple of months to see if they choose to be customer friendly or not, but until then I will not be buying their games.

So the argument that being on steam would introduce to more people who would buy doesn't seem to hold too well. You know about the game and yet still won't buy because it isn't on steam? Sorry but that is as poor a reason as I have ever heard for not buying a game. BF is comfortable with their sales so it seems you are the only one to lose out here. I have been playing BF games for a very long time and frankly the outcry over their copyright protection and licensing is way overblown. Kind of like this steam argument. Seems to me it in your case is more like cutting off your nose to spite your face. You may call it principle. I call it being obstinate.

[Pelican Pal]

So the argument that being on steam would introduce to more people who would buy doesn't seem to hold too well.

Not sure how you figured that.

I have been playing BF games for a very long time and frankly the outcry over their copyright protection and licensing is way overblown.

The new system is decently acceptable but the previous system where a download link would expire was poorly done, and deserved user anger.

[sburke]

Not sure how you figured that.

Maybe read the next sentence?

So the argument that being on steam would introduce to more people who would buy doesn't seem to hold too well. You know about the game and yet still won't buy because it isn't on steam?

It seems in his case it isn't enough just to know about it, he has to be able to buy it there. Enough of this nonsense, if he wanted the game he could have it. That they don't want to sell through a third party is their business and they have said no thank you. Why you guys can't let it go at that is beyond me, like you have some god given right to tell BF how they should do business. It is simply arrogant. They have been considerate enough to explain, patiently, why they don't want to do it. Shouldn't that be enough to end this?

[Pelican Pal]

I wouldn't say one random guy on the internet counts for enough to discount an argument. Last time I checked the moon landing happened even though multiple people can be found you will claim otherwise.

[sburke]

I wouldn't say one random guy on the internet counts for enough to discount an argument. Last time I checked the moon landing happened even though multiple people can be found you will claim otherwise.

moon landing? When?!

[Combatintman]

I wouldn't say one random guy on the internet counts for enough to discount an argument. Last time I checked the moon landing happened even though multiple people can be found you will claim otherwise.

Depends who the random guy is. In the important part of this argument it is somebody who calls the shots.

[Kieme(ITA)]

I also don't belive that someone won't buy CM games because they are not on steam...

I mean: I wanted a mustang so bad that I had no problem going to pick it 250km from where I live (and it's still very close), if I said: "I want it, but unless it's in a walking time radious I won't get it", forget it!

Back to games:

I know of people who wanted some titles that were exclusive of Origin, for example (similar to steam, but horrible), and they did the 5 minutes registration to get such title, then didn't use the said Platform fro anything else. Same goes with steam, some people I know registered only to get a title that was only on steam and then they just didn't buy anything else there.

In conclusion: I really don't belive people who say: I don't buy CM games because they are not on steam, it's something so out of any logic that can be read only as a not really interested person or a praise to steam and as a poor way to promote steam in here.

[DimitrisWS]

While CMANO boasts to be the most realistic I think it has a huge flaw in that boast. There are no morale, experience or training factors involved. A flight of F-16's from a third rate country pretty much behaves and fights like a flight of F-16s from a first rate country.

This is incorrect.

Command has a large number of settings that define how a unit will perform irrespective of its hardware, from proficiency levels to specific Doctrine & RoE settings (fire discipline, EMCON, use standoff or not, engage targets or opportunity or not etc. etc.) to mission-specific options (e.g. stick strictly within assigned area or go free-roaming etc.).

For example you can have an Iraqi-91 AD unit and a Serbian-99 AD unit equipped with exactly the same kit (export SA-6 battery) and if you configure these "soft" factors accordingly, you will notice a drastic difference in their combat performance.

The only individual soft factor currently missing is morale, which is currently co-factored in with proficiency.

The weapons modeling is impressive, but the training, experience, motivation and morale of the people who operate the weapons makes or breaks a military.

Agreed.

I hear the ground component needs some work too.

This is true, as the focus is on air & naval ops. I elaborated on this here: http://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/poaw-commands-modern-air-and-naval-operations.230/page-43#post-1480154

Thanks.

[Michael Emrys]

I also don't belive that someone won't buy CM games because they are not on steam...

Oh, I do. There are all kinds of people in the world. Asterix909 has made it clear that he is acting on a principle that is important to him and I can respect that...sort of. Back many, many years ago when I was much, much younger I nearly starved rather than do work that I did not believe in with all my heart and soul. That might strike you as silly as it does to me now...a little. But it was really that important to me and I am glad that I had the gumption to stick to my principles. It made me respect myself a whole lot more. And after all, I didn't starve and I doubt that A. will run out of games to play. So although I disagree with his position, that's okay. I don't think the world will end as a consequence.

Michael

[Jock Tamson]

I also don't belive that someone won't buy CM games because they are not on steam...

They are a different version of those who won't buy software unless it is on CD.

[TheVulture]

There are also those people who won't buy a game if it means having to install steam, just to complicate matters.

[Asterix909]

Maybe read the next sentence?

[added quote]"So the argument that being on steam would introduce to more people who would buy doesn't seem to hold too well. You know about the game and yet still won't buy because it isn't on steam?"[added quote]

It seems in his case it isn't enough just to know about it, he has to be able to buy it there.

You really are clueless, aren't you? Do you know simple logical arguments?

My claim is that if it was on Steam, more people would buy it. Period.

You respond that because I am not buying it while it is NOT on Steam, that means my argument is false.

.... ?!?!?!?!? WHAT?!?!? That only proves my argument! It is NOT on Steam and not being bought! And thats not even my real argument, I only claim *I* alone am not buying it because it is not on Steam as some sort of silly activism (just as you may avoid buying a quality shirt because it is made in a sweatshop).

I never, not once, claimed that the Steam population in general will not buy it solely because it is not on Steam. I am aware of many people that regularly use Steam but also own CM games. I simply claim that MORE people will buy it if it is on Steam. Simple logic, simple statistics: If you have a subset of a population, the larger the sample size the more of that subset you will get. So by adding Steam's userbase to your sample, you will (probably) yield more of the subset in your sample. And if you are unable to keep up with this simple logic, the 'population' is computer game players, the 'subset' is people willing to buy CM, and the 'sample size' is people aware CM even exists.

Its funny, here I am trying to see MORE Combat Mission players and MORE revenue for Battlefront and you accuse me of arrogance. While you are trying to keep it some niche game, hidden from the masses, to keep yourself feeling like some grognard elitist. Yep, I'm arrogant alright.

There are also those people who won't buy a game if it means having to install steam, just to complicate matters.

And I do not claim those people are 'wrong' or bad in any way. Thats the difference between a Steam fan and a guy like sburke. He feels it is his way or the highway all else is bad. I just want to see more success for the series and more ways to get it to users.

[Baneman]

....., I only claim *I* alone am not buying it because it is not on Steam as some sort of silly activism (just as you may avoid buying a quality shirt because it is made in a sweatshop).

...

Well, I am posting one last time to try and convince you to give in and get the game.

Thing is, in previous posts on this subject ( possibly even findable with astute use of the Search function - which I am no good at ), BFC have stated that they have contemplated Steam and concluded that it simply would not generate enough potential revenue to be worthwhile for the extra effort and work they would have to put in.

Therefore, your stance is not going to have any effect other than to deny yourself the ( rather good, if I say so myself, from the depths of my filthy fanboy soul... ) game.

[Michael Emrys]

While you are trying to keep it some niche game, hidden from the masses, to keep yourself feeling like some grognard elitist.

My name is Michael and I am a grognard elitist.

Well, not 100%. But I have seen a lot of things that started off really good get spoiled when the doors to the world were thrown open too soon and everybody invited inside. I guess that at every stage of an idea's evolution there is an optimum size to the population that knows about it and embraces it; not too many, not too few.

I don't know what the optimum size for the audience for CM is, but at the moment it feels about right. It's small enough to feel like a genuine community yet large enough to support a diversity of opinion on a number of issues...as this thread demonstrates. I don't know how many new members the community can absorb before it ceases to be a community and just becomes a rabble. But I would be cautious about expanding too rapidly. CM, as is readily apparent, is a labor of love, and while I am sure that the staff of BFC would not be unhappy to make more money, I suspect that they too are wary of turning the enterprise into a mere money machine with them lost in it.

Michael

[Asterix909]

Well, I am posting one last time to try and convince you to give in and get the game.

That is the problem, I really do want the game(s)!

Thing is, in previous posts on this subject ( possibly even findable with astute use of the Search function - which I am no good at ), BFC have stated that they have contemplated Steam and concluded that it simply would not generate enough potential revenue to be worthwhile for the extra effort and work they would have to put in.

Therefore, your stance is not going to have any effect other than to deny yourself the ( rather good, if I say so myself, from the depths of my filthy fanboy soul... ) game.

But that is ultimately part of the problem as well. While I do not deny your statement (I have seen said posts), I do deny BF's conclusions and I doubt how long they will last with those conclusions. As such, to buy in now I will (potentially) lose out on the future Steam release.

But to back track a little, I'd love to hear the reasoning explained in dollars and sense (sic) by BF completely. Steam's model is proven, and I highly doubt BF has an MBA with a proven software sales record making this decision. I believe they are basing their numbers on bad assumptions. I may be wrong, but the the fact is Steam works for *everyone else* so why does it magically not work for BF? Sure, Steam takes a cut of the revenue, but the increased sales and FREE marketing make up for that and more in almost every precedent.

Now to step forward, again, if I buy it now I am stuck with a single platform, vs getting both MAC and PC for one price. If I wait for a Steam release I will get both in one buy as per Steam's practice (I can understand why BF would not want this, less sales per individual customer; but again, that is made up by having more customers overall; this is the sort of shortsighted bad assumptions I assume (correct or not) BF is using).

I mean there is Achtung Panzer Op Star on Steam, Close Combat gateway to Caen on Steam, I am sure it will only be time before BF moves to include Steam as well, and if I am wrong, well... thats sad.

Thank you for the effort, but I will hold out a little longer and hope that my voice is heard by BF and keep showing my support for Steam release(s).

My name is Michael and I am a grognard elitist.

Well, not 100%. But I have seen a lot of things that started off really good get spoiled when the doors to the world were thrown open too soon and everybody invited inside. I guess that at every stage of an idea's evolution there is an optimum size to the population that knows about it and embraces it; not too many, not too few.

I don't know what the optimum size for the audience for CM is, but at the moment it feels about right. It's small enough to feel like a genuine community yet large enough to support a diversity of opinion on a number of issues...as this thread demonstrates. I don't know how many new members the community can absorb before it ceases to be a community and just becomes a rabble. But I would be cautious about expanding too rapidly. CM, as is readily apparent, is a labor of love, and while I am sure that the staff of BFC would not be unhappy to make more money, I suspect that they too are wary of turning the enterprise into a mere money machine with them lost in it.

Michael

But this argument unfortunately contradicts the other main argument against Steam that 'Steam users will not buy it because it is too complex and too expensive'. Under the premise I just stated, then only the minority 'real' fans and community members of this sort of game will buy in through Steam and thus not spoil the community. And even if 'everyone' buys in who cares, BF does not have to cater to the idiots' requests for rocket tanks, do they? As you say, a labor of love, thus it is solely their choice to spoil development or not. So what if the new people whine? They do not need to cater to them just as they do not cater to them today. The only difference would be more revenue which may help produce more (good) games, and more quality players as well! (And more idiots, but if they hate the game so much why did they buy it in the first place and why did they continue playing and continue being a part of the community?)

[sburke]

@asterix909

Yeah I am totally clueless. I have only been listening to this argument about steam for a few years now. I trust BF to know their audience and their business model and do know as they have stated it that they have actually reviewed the terms of agreements that it would impose. You on the other hand I do not know and other than you purchasing games on steam,you don't seem to have any other qualifications that would justify you giving BF business advice.

This isn't about some elitist grognard strawman thing that keeps getting dragged out as if the rest of us are completely clueless about the online community. I have a steam membership, I have bought games there. I have not found it to provide any value add relative to how I installed CM that makes me care one wit about whether BF decides to use them.

BF has outlived most other computer gaming companies by quite a bit in this genre. My ONLY concern is they continue to produce games. Your apparent only concern is how you get the game. If BF goes the steam route, perhaps that is how I will get the next one. If they don't I will still get it and will continue to support the company. I suspect BF will take your position with a healthy dose of salt in that you do know about the game and years later have yet to pry open that wallet.

Either way I don't care, now excuse me while I go fire up the game.

[A Canadian Cat]

I do deny BF's conclusions and I doubt how long they will last with those conclusions.

Really. BFC have been around for a few years now - I think around the same length of time as Valve. I see no evidence that BFC will be going away any time soon.

Steam's model is proven, and I highly doubt BF has an MBA with a proven software sales record making this decision.

LOL let me guess you have an MBA - right? Steam's model is proven for at least some types of markets and some types of games true. What BFC have is experience with their type of market and their type of game.

You should just trust them and let them do their thing. All we have to do is buy and enjoy their games. You should join us. Stop worrying about what Valve or BFC are doing:)