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Help with Infantry Attacks


76mm

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Generally in CMx2, I have a very hard time attacking with infantry; squad members get picked off one by one until the squads are too weak to attack. This is especially true when the squads begin (as they often do) at less than full strength. In a recent scenario, most of my Sov squads began with 4-5 members.

I do my best to keep them under cover and use suppression, but it doesn't seem to help...as soon as they move within a certain radius of the enemy, one or two of them go down.

One of the frustrating things is that it seems very difficult to lay suppressive fire; troops simply can't get LOS to things that it sure seems they'd be able to see. For example:

CM%20Red%20Thunder%202014-09-13%2012-45-40-62.png

CM%20Red%20Thunder%202014-09-14%2015-48-44-08.png

These squads really can't see (and fire upon) the buildings looming in front of them?

Any tips (or links to tips) for attacking with infantry would be appreciated.

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Definitely a weak spot.

2nd shot: 3 of 7 are cowering. The tall grass obviously obscures the vision of the other 4. This is an issue with default posture. In tall grass the soldiers are prone. That blinds them. If they were kneeling, or at least occasionally prairie dogging, then they should have LOS. However, since 3/7's are cowering, I'd assume some incoming fire made them lie down. If you put them in that location, with NO incoming fire (or negative morale effects), I'd bet they'd have LOS/LOF.

1st screenie: The LOS line seems to be broken at the fence. Their position with the open road right in front of them seems that it should give a clear LOS to the building. There seems to be a non-intuitive interaction between the tall grass, trees, and fence (possibly the smoke, as well) and a lack of "bonus" for the open road.

Any chance you could post a screenie of the map, from overhead, showing both locations? Oh, and identifying the map/battle?

Thanks,

Ken

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This is from the Blood on the Tracks scenario, the first building across the stream on the right flank. But this is really a general problem for me, so its not really dependent on this scenario... My attacking infantry can never get good LOS for suppressive fire, and as soon as they move to find such LOS, the squads/half-squads typically lose 1-2 guys. Sometimes I try to have guys crawl around, but obviously that exhausts them very quickly, so it is not practicable to use very often.

Also, I play WEGO and am frustrated by the orders--if I use Move/Quick, they continue moving long after I would have had them go prone (thus losing another guy or two), and if I use Hunt they drop as soon as they hear fire--I have not found a command that seems to get them to act how I would consider to be "realistic".

C3K--regarding your point---with all due respect, if there was no incoming fire, I wouldn't need to suppress the building, so I wouldn't need LOS to it... So to say that I'd have LOS if there was no incoming fire is kind of meaningless.

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I do my best to keep them under cover and use suppression, but it doesn't seem to help...as soon as they move within a certain radius of the enemy, one or two of them go down.

Then you need to suppress the enemy more. Target Light orders with your tanks. Concentrate your fire more and channel your attacks through places where the enemy can't shoot at you. Don't go near the enemy: you can generally get them to clear out of their hidey holes by shooting at them a lot, and actual grenade-and-SMG close assault is pretty much a last resort unless you've got massive suppression available and the aforementioned places to move via.

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Then you need to suppress the enemy more...Don't go near the enemy: you can generally get them to clear out of their hidey holes by shooting at them a lot, and actual grenade-and-SMG close assault is pretty much a last resort unless you've got massive suppression available and the aforementioned places to move via.

Well, the problem is that in many sorts of terrain, it is not possible to fire on the enemy unless you move closer, and if you try to move closer you get picked apart as you do so.

For me, the only effective means of suppressing the enemy is with tanks; any infantry which comes within LoS of the enemy gets worn down very quickly even if not acting aggressively.

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C3K--regarding your point---with all due respect, if there was no incoming fire, I wouldn't need to suppress the building, so I wouldn't need LOS to it... So to say that I'd have LOS if there was no incoming fire is kind of meaningless.

76mm,

Well, I disagree.

All the of the following is ONLY in regards to the SECOND screenshot, FWIW.

I couldn't help but notice that the range to the house is 62m. I've had carnal knowledge of women from greater distances than that. Really. ;) That is CLOSE range. If you think that seven men should advance in tall grass to 62m of a building occupied by the enemy, and NOT be suppressed/suffer degradation of their LOS, then you are overly optimistic.

In a non-suppressed environment, it is trivial for me to place rounds within 6" of the point of aim...with a handgun. Long guns are easier.

A squad WILL fail to take an occupied house against unsuppressed defenders.

62m is FAR too close to set up a suppression point.

Start 200m out (or even 300m). As one element sets up fire, another moves closer and does the same. Unit 3 leapfrogs and area fires. Bring 300m up to 100m (Units 1 and 2 are 150m and 200m out, or so.). From 100m and 150m, area fire. Pull 200m unit in... and have them rush the house. Up against the outside wall, FACE into it (TARGET it for 15s). Then, next turn, bring 150m up, pause, then assault.

If you had incoming fire, then the squad in the tall grass is doing the right thing: trying to stay alive. It's up to you to stop the enemy fire before ordering your men so close. Or, get more fanatic men who won't cower or go prone.

There is no "problem" (IMHO) if the game has men hiding in tall grass when someone is shooting at them from 62m.

Suppression is key. Area Targeting is needed to suppress.

I do (still) agree that Screenshot 1 doesn't seem right, at first blush.

Ken

Edited to add:

In screenshot 2, your morale state is "+1 Nervous". That is why 3/7 are cowering and the other four have their noses pressed to the dirt. This is not an LOS issue: it is a suppression issue.

Screenshot 1: The more I look at it, the more I think that the overhanging branches are blocking the LOS to the second floor. Put the camera at the second floor and try to spot your soldiers. I'll bet they can't be seen. (I have not opened the map to look...) To have LOS for area fire at a building, you need LOS to the center of that action spot. It really looks as if you need to get closer with that team. Of course, if they are prone, the tall grass may block LOS. Catch 22...I know. Morale state is important. That's why I -always- boost my men's morale by giving them my famous pre-battle speeches. It helps. ;)

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For me, the only effective means of suppressing the enemy is with tanks...

That's what tanks are for. I don't know what is available in this scenario; since you don't mention tanks being available I suppose they aren't. Do you have any infantry support weapons, HMGs or mortars? You definitely need to put a lot of firepower of some sort on this house to get any positive results. One depleted squad just isn't going to cut it.

Michael

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76mm,

I couldn't help but notice that the range to the house is 62m. I've had carnal knowledge of women from greater distances than that. Really. ;) That is CLOSE range. If you think that seven men should advance in tall grass to 62m of a building occupied by the enemy, and NOT be suppressed/suffer degradation of their LOS, then you are overly optimistic.

***********

62m is FAR too close to set up a suppression point.

Start 200m out (or even 300m). As one element sets up fire, another moves closer and does the same. Unit 3 leapfrogs and area fires. Bring 300m up to 100m (Units 1 and 2 are 150m and 200m out, or so.). From 100m and 150m, area fire. Pull 200m unit in... and have them rush the house.

I agree that 62m is rather close range. The problem is that often it is not possible to engage from longer range because of LOS issues. And moving within whatever closer range is necessary for LOS results in a steady trickle of casualties. In this particular scenario, the infantry had just crossed a tree-lined stream, and it was not possible to target the house from further away. Maybe there is some better way to take advantage of folds in the terrain that I am not aware of...

In screenshot 2, there are three tanks in the background, so I had them available in this scenario, but again, for me this is a general problem--my infantry bleeds to death in almost every scenario--a loss here, a loss there, and gradually all of my squads have two men left...

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I agree that 62m is rather close range. The problem is that often it is not possible to engage from longer range because of LOS issues.

Then you're choosing the wrong axis of attack. Or you're attacking where you need not. If you can't see them to shoot from further away, stay further away and go around. Just feeding an infantry formation into a killing ground is counter-productive.

In screenshot 2, there are three tanks in the background, so I had them available in this scenario, but again, for me this is a general problem--my infantry bleeds to death in almost every scenario--a loss here, a loss there, and gradually all of my squads have two men left...

Then you're definitely doing something wrong, since that's not a universal problem. Sounds like you need to change your approach earlier than "when you're attacking with your infantry". Possibly to "not attacking with your infantry" and letting other arms do some heavy lifting.

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I agree that 62m is rather close range. The problem is that often it is not possible to engage from longer range because of LOS issues. And moving within whatever closer range is necessary for LOS results in a steady trickle of casualties. In this particular scenario, the infantry had just crossed a tree-lined stream, and it was not possible to target the house from further away. Maybe there is some better way to take advantage of folds in the terrain that I am not aware of...

Try smoke. Absent that you will need to look for another direction from which to approach the objective, or consider bypassing the target altogether via a different avenue of advance. Moving around in LOS of unsuppressed enemy units at that range is inviting trouble.

I do agree that in the first screenshot it seems the game engine considers the tree canopy to be closer to the ground than the graphics would indicate. However, if your team moves 2 action spots directly west they will have good LOS to the house while maintaining cover from the trees.

Also, I play WEGO and am frustrated by the orders--if I use Move/Quick, they continue moving long after I would have had them go prone (thus losing another guy or two), and if I use Hunt they drop as soon as they hear fire--I have not found a command that seems to get them to act how I would consider to be "realistic".

Hunt + Covered Arc. The Hunting unit will generally ignore firing and explosions outside the Arc.

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A more general suggestion- play a few infantry battles as the defender, against an attacker whom you consider to be a good player. Watch how he does things. How he uses terrain, sets up suppression, arranges numerical advantage in an attack, etc.

I think we learn well by seeing, when our own practice is not working out properly.

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Frankly, CM has done a great job illustrating why the First World War was such a bloodbath. Better leadership and arming of infantry can only go so far. Reality is unsupported infantry can't be expected to accomplish much on their own. Personally I avoid the use of infantry for direct combat except when they're advancing on targets they have an obvious numerical advantage to. Or if the target has already been pummeled by fire.

Attacking infantry are better off doing as little actual attacking as possible, and really more seizing and holding ground that has already had the ever loving crap bombarded out of it. The Germans realized this, that's why tanks were the core of their force and infantry were a supporting arm. Everyone else was still thinking like 1918. That all being said, if you really must use in infantry in an assault role, keep a couple of things in mind.

1. Rule of thumb, 200m max. Beyond that most men in the squad aside from the machine gun can't and won't hit much. Anything inside that range should be carefully considered based on composition. A German rifle squad with its generous assortment of MP40s and MG42/34s can pretty comfortably close to point blank assault and triumph. A homogeneous Italian rifle team not so much.

2. The Machine Gun is your best friend and worst enemy. Especially for the Armies that lack enough squad-level firepower. Use and abuse those Brownings/SG43s/Bredas. The machine gun's reputation as a defensive weapon kind of obscures how useful it is for attack.

3. Your infantry are doing great if the whole squad manages 1-2 kills the entire match for few losses. Again, try to attack or advance on targets that have *at least* been attacked and challenged already. Infantry do great when the targets they're attacking either can't, or won't, fight back.

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1. Rule of thumb, 200m max. Beyond that most men in the squad aside from the machine gun can't and won't hit much. Anything inside that range should be carefully considered based on composition. A German rifle squad with its generous assortment of MP40s and MG42/34s can pretty comfortably close to point blank assault and triumph. A homogeneous Italian rifle team not so much.

I kinda, sorta disagree. Scoring hits is one thing; suppression is another. And suppression is Good. If you have ammo for it, why not tell a few rifle sections to lay fire at known or suspected enemy positions from the back while your maneuver elements move in? Your enemies can become suppressed even by rifle fire buzzing safely over their heads, and while they're suppressed they will be safer to approach. Likewise your attacking infantry can become suppressed by friendly machinegun fire even though there's no friendly fire to worry of, so it's a fine idea to plan your avenues of fire and approach not to overlap too much.

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I kinda, sorta disagree. Scoring hits is one thing; suppression is another. And suppression is Good. If you have ammo for it, why not tell a few rifle sections to lay fire at known or suspected enemy positions from the back while your maneuver elements move in? Your enemies can become suppressed even by rifle fire buzzing safely over their heads, and while they're suppressed they will be safer to approach. Likewise your attacking infantry can become suppressed by friendly machinegun fire even though there's no friendly fire to worry of, so it's a fine idea to plan your avenues of fire and approach not to overlap too much.

Absolutely. Again, composition matters here. German rifle squads in particular can be lethal out to 800m and can easily suppress freaking Browning teams at that range if they get a few good licks in early. Nothing i'm stating is an absolute, but really more an "in my own experience" sort of thing.

I admit I personally don't have a lot of confidence in the ability of rifle squads to suppress distant targets. Not enough focus in their fire and they usually can't sit still for long before the ominous arrival of nearby spotting rounds forces my hand anyway.

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Thanks everyone for the tips. I always try to suppress enemy positions before moving infantry, but it seems like inevitably as soon as inf starts moving there is an unsuppressed half-squad somewhere with LOS, with predictable results.

Another problem at least for me, is that often I can't fire artillery on targets that I'd like to suppress, because of lack of LOS--in broken terrain it is almost impossible for me to use artillery at all. Other than the use of TRPs (which is dependent on the scenario designer), any tips for that?

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Another problem at least for me, is that often I can't fire artillery on targets that I'd like to suppress, because of lack of LOS--in broken terrain it is almost impossible for me to use artillery at all. Other than the use of TRPs (which is dependent on the scenario designer), any tips for that?

Ian.Leslie's advice on only exposing the FO for the absolute minimum time is good: sneak him into position to give a mission, then sneak him out again until the spotting rounds start to fall.

Or accept that you're not going to be able to call in responsive fire missions, and use your arty preplanned. Sometimes, setting a large module to fire frugally but until it's empty (half the tubes, firing light or harrass) will mean there's something left for you to adjust when you do get the FO somewhere useful, and it doesn't take as long to arrive.

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If the defence has been set-up well (with interlocking fields of fire, mutual support etc) then you do need to consider not just fire from the unit on the objective but enemy neighbouring units who have LOF to the approach to the objective.

My mistake (often made, followed by a 'Doh!' moment) is to forget this. When I do get it right it's down to using smoke to mask the flanks of my attack (or if not enough smoke then have supporting friendlies area fire at possible enemy locations to suppress them) then have the objective suppressed - friendly suppressing fire, arty etc - and attack in short bounds, one unit up and 'quick' whilst the others stay put and provide covering fire. i think often there is a desire to get this done quickly but taking your time pays dividends.

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Well, the problem is that in many sorts of terrain, it is not possible to fire on the enemy unless you move closer, and if you try to move closer you get picked apart as you do so.

For me, the only effective means of suppressing the enemy is with tanks; any infantry which comes within LoS of the enemy gets worn down very quickly even if not acting aggressively.

This is a very interesting thread. I need instruction also and I appreciate the replys you have been receiving. I find one thing funny tho. In your last statement you mention tanks as your only means in open areas. That's why the tank was invented! and cm3 makes it very clear that you better have your **** together if your going to take any position reasonably defended. CMRT is the hardest game I ever owned in lue of chess of coarse which is king of hard. Again thanks for the instruction replies:)!

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I have found in my ai games that using small teams as a security advance element helps quite a bit in uncovering enemy positions/ bunkers on the far flanks and close by grave yards coverd by the enemy. only that team suffers theoretically and now at least you can make intelligent decisions if you have your main force mostly out of enemy view. also smoke rocks the house for mad dashes even for recon elements to suddenly be infiltrating the enemy security screen wich will die quicly by a few su76 rounds:P

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