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Suggestions for setting of first Red Thunder Module?


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I've been wondering where the first Red Thunder Module should be set. Bagration was so big it could be set somewhere within the same campaign. However, one of the unit types many of us would like to see for the Germans are SS. I know there were no SS units involved in the initial battle but I don't know if any were brought in as the Soviet forces moved into Poland. Luftwaffe Land divisions were in the initial battle so those would be a natural addition. I have no idea about any Fallschirmjaegers.

For the Soviets, Lend Lease vehicles would be a great addition. Since those were used in the initial fighting they could be added without changing any location.

So my question is, what would you like to see the first module to be about? Of course campaigns are important so is there a specific action you'd like to see covered? If you'd like to see SS troops can we stick with Army Group Center's area of operations or do we need to move to the Ukrainian Army Groups?

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The way I see it, the SS had formations in all three German army group locations: north, center, and south. Luftwaffe Field Divisions fought in the north and center. German mountain troops in the north and south. Finns in the north. Romanians in the south. Hungarians in the south and center. If you consider that each module can only interact with the base game and not each other from a 'stock' scenario and campaign standpoint I think you would want the something along the lines of the following:

Module 1 extends the time frame to the end of the war and includes:

Luftwaffe Field Divisions

Mountain Troops

Finns

Special German regular army TO&Es such as Gross Deutschland who fought in the north and in Prussia and Panzer Brigades etc.

Module 2

Waffen SS

Hungarians

Romanians

Lend Lease

It might be possible to have special battle specific packs focused on Berlin and Hungary, but as demonstrated by Market Garden that kind of thing is hard to do since it would be hard to avoid TO&E duplication. I think I probably listed more in each module than BFC would normally include, but as long as we are speculating ...

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Module 1 extends the time frame to the end of the war and includes:

Luftwaffe Field Divisions

Mountain Troops

Finns

Special German regular army TO&Es such as Gross Deutschland who fought in the north and in Prussia and Panzer Brigades etc.

Module 2

Waffen SS

Hungarians

Romanians

Lend Lease

Gee, maybe it would be nice if the first module included something for the Soviet side, and generally more than one item out of eight in both modules?

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Gee, maybe it would be nice if the first module included something for the Soviet side, and generally more than one item out of eight in both modules?

You could definitely put Soviet marines in with the Finns etc. We are all just tossing suggestions out there so if you don't like my suggestion then perhaps you can list your own suggestion.

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Partisans? :)

Agree would love to see some of the minor Axis powers get some love but weren't they starting to slowly drop off by the CMRT timetable?

Not really. The Finns were involved in a fairly major Soviet Offensive beginning in June before they switched sides in ... I think some time in September or October. The Hungarians probably did most of their fighting in 1944 and they fought to the bitter end once they saw what happened to Romania when they switched sides. The Romanians of course switched sides and fought in several battles vs Hungarian and German forces. They also spent a few days 'fighting' for the Germans although the details of whether they actually fought and then switched or just switched is unclear.

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You could definitely put Soviet marines in with the Finns etc. We are all just tossing suggestions out there so if you don't like my suggestion then perhaps you can list your own suggestion.

Actually I'd be happy with:

Lend Lease

Partisans

SS

Luftwaffe Field Divisions

and as a bonus, Hungarians or Romanians

I thought, though, that the next module will take CMRT through the end of the war, so I assumed it would cover Berlin and that theater? While I agree that Hungary would generally be more interesting, I'd like to end up in Berlin eventually--is there any clarity on how many modules there will be for CMRT?

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Rithethe415, hi,

“I've always been drawn to the Battle of the Korsun–Cherkassy Pocket. Don't know why.

Snow. Mud. Armor. Hopelessness. The usual ingredients.”

Agreed... my favourite too... but for the next “title..” i.e. Eastern Front 43’/44’. Not this module which will be winter 44’/45’.

For the next module I vote for East Prussia. More atmospheric than Hungary.

But it is bound to be winter 44’/45’ so all of us can build what scenarios we wish. But weather and terrain somehow less inspiring in Hungary.. in my view.

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

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Actually I'd be happy with:

Lend Lease

Partisans

SS

Luftwaffe Field Divisions

and as a bonus, Hungarians or Romanians

I thought, though, that the next module will take CMRT through the end of the war, so I assumed it would cover Berlin and that theater? While I agree that Hungary would generally be more interesting, I'd like to end up in Berlin eventually--is there any clarity on how many modules there will be for CMRT?

There is nothing in my list that precludes the time line for the first module extending to the end of the war. In fact I mentioned that it would. You could make plenty of Berlin and surroundings scenarios with just the base game units and special German TO&Es, especially if you included Volksturm in the first module. There actually weren't that many SS formations in Berlin in the last days -actually there weren't very many formations of any type in Berlin proper. The only SS unit that comes to mind is the remnants of the Charlemagne division. So the ironic thing is that Hitler himself was defended to the last man by French, and other foreign SS troops and Volksturm while the actual heavy hitting SS formations were all down in Hungary and Austria.

There could also be Berlin scenarios included with the second module. Modules aren't necessarily geographic centered but rather more TO&E and equipment centered. The only complicating factor would be if there were any plans to include specific historical buildings such as the Brandenburg Gate or the Reichstag or something like that. Perhaps there could be a special Berlin building and equipment pack which scenario makers could use with the TO&Es from the regular modules. In that way the pack could be tied into the modules. Even in that instance though you probably wouldn't get any stock scenarios that used the special buildings because it doesn't appear that BFC has plans to include any scenarios with the packs. I would prefer that some scenarios were included, but then I suppose they want to differentiate between modules and packs and if you include scenarios in a pack then it looks an awful lot like a module. Modules include up to twenty scenarios and several campaigns though so if a pack only contained like ten or fewer scenarios that seems like it would be a nice compromise, but it doesn't appear that BFC is going to go in that direction.

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Wouldn't it also be true that pretty much every formation type from the summer of '44 has a different TO&E by the the winter of '44/'45, so that if a unit type is introduced in the first module in actuality it would be a different unit in the second module if the second module is set in the winter (Budapest/East Prussia)

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There is nothing in my list that precludes the time line for the first module extending to the end of the war. In fact I mentioned that it would.

Sorry, on that point I wasn't specifically replying to you, but more of a general question about whether one or two modules were anticipated for CMRT...

If only one module is expected, I would think it should cover Berlin. If there are two modules, I'd like for them to cover Berlin and Hungary, and don't care much in which order (although I'd like my Lend Lease goodies in the first module!).

Depending on the devs' appetite for including Axis/Sov minors, I'm sure there is more than enough for two modules.

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Wouldn't it also be true that pretty much every formation type from the summer of '44 has a different TO&E by the the winter of '44/'45, so that if a unit type is introduced in the first module in actuality it would be a different unit in the second module if the second module is set in the winter (Budapest/East Prussia)

The reason the games are split between base games and modules is because the base game units form the 'base' for all the scenarios, campaigns, and quick battles for that particular series. That's why doing the entire Eastern Front with one base game and a series of modules won't work. Any particular module can only interact with other units contained within that module or with the base game. So if all the TO&Es and equipment for the base game units changed during the time frame that is supposed to be covered within that game series then you would need a new base game. So the way to think of modules and base games is how the different units that are included interact with each other. A module interacts only with itself and the base game so if you want to pit two adversaries against each other they need to either be included in the same module or in the base game. Therefore the units included in the base game need to be sufficient to cover the entire period of time that is proposed to be covered in the time frame of that series so those units can interact with all the modules. Something like Volksgrenadier units will now need to be added in a module for the Eastern Front, but when the Bulge game comes out they might be in the base game - not sure.

But anyway, from the German perspective, no I don't think the TO&Es that are in the base game were altered again before the end of the war (although I can't be 100% certain). There are lots of different German TO&Es out there and Steve says that German TO&Es are a nightmare, but the basic TO&Es will always be included in the base game. I don't know enough about Soviet TO&Es to know one way or the other, but if there were substantial alterations to basic units that would require a new base game.

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