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Critique my (first) CMx2 map


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I made a bunch of maps in CMx1, but until Red Thunder came out, I wasn't particularly interested in CMx2, so didn't make a single map...

I'd like to get back into making maps and hopefully scenarios, so have spent some time trying to recreate a grid square from a Soviet topo map of the area around Bobruisk. Frankly, it doesn't look right to me, but I can't put my finger on the problem(s), so I'd appreciate some constructive criticism.

Here is the topo map:

http://www.vervecom.net/games/RKKA050_N-35-107-C_Bobrujsk_1937_greif.jpg

Here is the grid square from the topo map (grid 83-38), the village of Broshka:

special%20editor%20overlay.bmp

Here is the resulting map:

http://www.vervecom.net/games/First%20Map.btt

A couple of issues that I think I have:

1) This first time, I'm kind of struggling with the elevation controls in the map editor. I read JonS' tutorial after doing the elevation on my map, so will try using some of his tips next time, but would welcome any other tips. In particular:

a) the terrain seems too even and smooth on this map;

B) when working from contour lines on a topo map, at the top of a hill, within the contour lines, I guess I should go up half a contour interval or so, so avoid flat-topped plateaus--correct?

2) Vegetation: Ugh. Either too thick or too thin, too uniform or too weirdly varied. To mix things up a bit, I put a bunch of different types of grasses, etc. in the big open space in the middle, but don't really see much of a difference. I tried to create thick bushes around the swampy low ground in the middle, but got a couple of bushes scattered around. Help!

3) A couple of comments/criticisms of the Buildings/Flavor items in CMRT:

a) Buildings: I'm surprised by the lack of variety in the buildings. I don't see any warehouse/factory type structures, did I miss them? As far as I can tell, there are really no large building types whatsoever. Russia is not like Europe, full of quaint little buildings--the Soviets in particular built things rather large--workshops, warehouses, worker housing, etc. Hopefully this will be addressed by the next East Front title.

B) Flavor Items: I tried to add quite a few flavor items to the map, but didn't think that most of them are appropriate for Belorussia 1944. Streetlamps? Fountains? Street signs? Hahaha. Again, it looks like they just mostly ported over the stuff from CMBN, etc. Some of the stuff is good--the junk piles, farm items, but you can only use this stuff so much. Let me know your thoughts about how I used flavor items on this map.

In addition to fixing up this map, I'd like to try some other small (1km x 1km) maps based on topo maps; if someone is interested in creating a scenario based on a topo map grid, let me know, and given some time I'd probably be able to create a map for you. I think this size map would be about right for creating some smallish scenarios.

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Sometimes it's easier to show: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ziqfbyusgpliabk/First%20Map%20v2.btt?dl=0

I hope you don't mind, but I took your map and spent an hour doing things that I thought made it "look" better, in order to provide some quality feedback and demonstrate some principles.

1. Avoid large blocks of the same terrain, unless it's a field of crops or orchard or such. THIS GAME IS NOT CMx1. Too much of the same tile next to each other looks wrong to our eye, because nature doesn't look that way. CMx1 had larger tiles that had natural variation built into each type, CMx2 has smaller tiles that are essentially identical among the same type. Use a "soft touch" and mix and match tile types to get the desired look. Don't broad stroke one tile type and expect it to look natural. A grass field isn't just made of all green grass, there are many different colors (dirt, dying grass, small vegetation) that all combine together to make a pretty pasture for our eyes to enjoy. Don't have blocks end abruptly right next to each other, use other tiles to "blend" the transitions. For example, a farm field won't end right next to a swap tile, there is that mix of low bushes and brush that borders a swamp that can act as a transition.

2. Use the light forest tile for EVERYTHING. I love this tile, it serves so many purposes. Use it under roads, fences, orchards, buildings, swamps, and of course forests. It breaks up monotonous farm fields and towns with a darker color, and serves great as a way to highlight fence lines and roads. The small vegetation sprites that come with it also serve as a great way to simulate the brush that naturally grows around nearly every object in nature.

3. When doing big blocks of trees, don't use more then one tree per tile, and use multiple types of tree per block. The tree types don't have any variety within the same type, so forests with one tree type look AWFUL. Tree A, C and D are my standbys. Place each type randomly in your forest blocks. Break up the forests with bushes and grass tiles of differing types. I also use Tree D to simulate the large, LOS blocking bushes that the game currently lacks. The actual bush vegetation is far too low, and every other tree is far too big. Tree D should be found at the edge of nearly all forest and heavily vegetated areas. It simulates the low line of sight blockages that characterizes these areas.

4. Practically everything we will be replicating in this game will have evidence of human development. Even wide open pasture land has a fence running through it somewhere. People like dividing up the land into their own tiny parcels, use fencing wherever it makes sense. Farmer's fields shouldn't just stop in the middle of open grass land with no boundary or reason. This isn't the steppes or Montana - there were far too many people in Europe during the 1940s for open land to go unclaimed. Any land that doesn't have development will be because it's far too wet/vegetated or rocky/hilly to do anything with.

5. Use subtle elevation changes between your main topographic lines to simulate the ground better. Just drop elevation points that are 1 or 2 meters lower randomly between the lines, and you'll get a much more varied map. Look at the map I uploaded to see what I mean. I also like to make sure that all my roads are a different elevation then the surrounding terrain - dirt roads come about because we wear down the ground from so much travel, which means it's going to be lower then the surrounding terrain! Took a drive on Google Street view through parts of rural Europe, and you'll see that almost no road is perfectly flat with the surrounding terrain.

6. I don't believe in flavor objects. Don't notice them half the time and the tedium involves takes away from me making other maps. I'll use them when I feel the desire but half the time it's not worth it.

7. Pull up Google Earth and look at the land you are modelling the map after - it's not gonna be the same as it was in the 1940s, but it gives you an idea of how the land is utilized. Turn on photos, it allows you to see pictures people took of an area and helps you make sense of what it looks like from the ground. Here's an example of the depicted area:

dfq4sNZ.jpg

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SeinfeldRules, thanks much for the tips. I took a quick read but will read them more carefully while looking at your revised map--thanks again.

By the way, how did you find that grid square on Google Earth--did you just search for Broshka, or was it more complicated than that?

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Tried searching for Broshka, couldn't find it, so I searched for the name in the map file, Bobrujsk, which came up. Once I found it, I zoomed out and looked at the road network and compared it to the map. Found the main roads easy enough and then just narrowed it down from there using the Russian names in the map and on Google Earth.

I'm a fanatic about using Google Earth when making my maps, there is no better way to simulate a natural environment then to look at the real thing. Maybe not 100% accurate to WW2, but it gives you a great start.

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Good tips for Google earth as well.

I've read your comments more carefully now, and with one exception (see below) all of them sound great.

The only issue I might disagree with you about is using fencing or walls for dividing fields, etc. in the Soviet context. I've travelled extensively in Russia and to some extent in Ukraine (never been to Belorussia, but...) and fences or walls setting off fields seems very rare. Obviously there should be some fences around livestock enclosures, etc. but not really around fields.

From what I've seen, in the present day there is usually kind of a scrubby line of trees/bushes around the edges of a field, and of course the field might well stop there for some reason--a little gully, a hillock, a dirt road, etc. I do agree that fields generally should not just stop--there should at least be a line of brush or something to mark the border between the field and the adjoining terrain.

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B) when working from contour lines on a topo map, at the top of a hill, within the contour lines, I guess I should go up half a contour interval or so, so avoid flat-topped plateaus--correct?

Generally, yes. It depends on the area encompassed by the top-most contour and the diff-alt between contours, but yeah; I usually add a metre or three around the area that looks like where the highest point would be.

2) Vegetation: Ugh. Either too thick or too thin, too uniform or too weirdly varied. To mix things up a bit, I put a bunch of different types of grasses, etc. in the big open space in the middle, but don't really see much of a difference.
SR's points about variation and randomness I fully agree with.

In terms of a specific technique, try this:

* set the map zoom to the second-to-smallest setting.

* click on the tree/bush/ground-type you want to use

* click on the map somewhere where you want that terrain to be, and keep the left button clicked down.

* now, while keeping the button clicked, sweep your mouse backwards and forwards, up and down, and around in circles over the area where you want that stuff to appear. I find that my PC can't keep up with the speed the mouse is moving, and drops the trees (or whatever) down at pseudo random intervals.

* now select the next terrain type you want in that area, and repeat.

To create a forested area I repeat that process with heavy forest, light forest, brush, tree types A, C, and D, (and/or B and E, depending on the type of forest), as well as the three bush types (usually with two or three bushes per tile).

It helps to think about the sequence you lay things down in - subsequent layers will 'overwrite' stuff that's already there, so I start with the type I want least of, and finish with the one I want most of. For example, for thick forest I'll do the Light Forest tile first, and the Heavy Forest tile second so that there is generally more of the Heavy tiles. For a thinner forest, the Heavy tile goes down first and the Light second.

As a final step I go back and deliberately place trees on any otherwise bare Heavy Forest tiles and trees or bushes on the bare Light Forest tiles, and then eyeball it for evenness and consistency, both in 2D and 3D.

I tried to create thick bushes around the swampy low ground in the middle, but got a couple of bushes scattered around.
That could be because some terrain types don't allow vegetation. You can't, for example, plant a tree on a cobblestone tile. I think the same applies for Marsh and maybe Mud (or vice versa?). Test it on a small map to confirm it for yourself.

a) Buildings: I'm surprised by the lack of variety in the buildings. I don't see any warehouse/factory type structures, did I miss them?
No, they've been deliberately omitted because the variety that would need to be included is so vast as to be silly. Instead you need to make them yourself.

Use modular buildings, and shape out the area you want covered in building (factory, warehouse, rail station, whatever). The go into the 3D viewer and alter the wall texture and window type so that all the separate elements look like that are part of the same building, rather than being a mish-mash of different styles. You use various combinations of CTRL, ALT, and SHIFT plus click for that. Have a look in the manual for which combos do what.

Then go inside and create doors between the 'rooms' of your building. For some building types with very large open internal spaces you might want to knock out the internal walls altogether.

B) Flavor Items: I tried to add quite a few flavor items to the map, but didn't think that most of them are appropriate for Belorussia 1944.
I like flavour items, but generally less is more. There's no need to have an even thick coating of the things buttered across the whole map. Instead create some interesting and complex vignettes at selected locations. For example; a petrol station complete with pumps, barrels, drums, some rubbish, an maybe a few crates. Or a barn, complete with piles of hay, cart, plough, and some sacks of produce and crates of equipment. A line of evenly spaced power poles that crosses the map beside the major route is easy and quick, and adds quite a bit of interest.

With fences, or lines of bushes/whatever, don't forget to add gates at the corners of fields and out onto the roads. Farmers do like to be able to move about their farms without constantly destroying fences :D

Hopefully that makes sense and is some use to you. Good luck with your map making :)

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JonS, thanks for the very helpful tips.

One question: I agree that taking out interior walls will allow me to create the types of buildings I mentioned, but I couldn't see how that is possible--I didn't see anything in the manual (or in your tutorial), although I might have overlooked something.

This map-making sounds like hard work! Would any of you experienced map guys estimate how long it would take you to create an "average" map? I guess size would be one determining factor, so maybe 1km x 1km?

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taking out interior walls ... I couldn't see how that is possible

Press and hold CTRL, then left click. Each click will cycle through combinations of windows and doors on the wall you click. Towards the end of the cycle is five windows. The next click is a rubbled wall, the next click is no wall. The next click takes you back to the start of the cycle with a blank wall. I think, from memory, it's about 20 clicks around the whole cycle.

Edit: this only works for Modular Buildings. The doors and windows on the Independent Buildings are fixed.

Edit2: Pressing CTRL+SHIFT when you're clicking cycles the doors/windows on all floors simultaneously.

Edit3: you have to do this in the 3D view.

This map-making sounds like hard work!
There is a lot to it, yes :)

estimate how long it would take you to create an "average" map? I guess size would be one determining factor, so maybe 1km x 1km?
Yeah size is a factor, but it's mainly complexity, really. A 1x1km open rural map with a patch of woods and a small village might take you ... mmm ... two weeks, working 1-2 hours per night, 5-6 nights a week? On the other hand, a 1x1km city or urban map could take ... 6-8 weeks?

Edit4: as an example, I'm currently building a map which is roughly half city, half parkland. I'm working on a section of the city which is ~350m x ~250m. So far it contains 327 buildings, and there is still a 100m x 100m block to go. Then there's the other 2/3rds of the map to do. *wibble*

You'll get a lot quicker with practice though. I suspect you're spending a lot of time switching between 2D and 3D to see what the stuff you've just placed will actually look like? Once you start to internalise what things will look like you won't need to switch so much, and things will go much much faster.

Also; be brutal about cropping your map before you start. Does is really need to be 1x1km - can you cut it down to 800x896m? If you can you'll have removed over 4,000 tiles which you now won't need to populate with terrain.

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All good comments I'd support JonS - 1km x 1km map as your first attempt is a rather large undertaking. I'd suggest scaling it down and creating a small one then gradually as you learn the 'art' increase the size of your maps. I'd even suggest starting with a 500m x 500m map.

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Plenty of good comment above. The only other point I would mention, particularity when making a historic map and using a map or GE editor overlay, is to select an area to be mapped that makes tactical sense and fits with the battle you have in mind, ( but also has areas that can be used as set up zones.)

What's the story the map is going to tell. A small open farmland map may not provide for a good armoured battle, but will make for an interesting and challenging infantry night time reconnaissance mission.

P

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Thanks everyone for the tips. I had seen how to cycle through windows etc. but didn't realize that I could get rid of entire walls the same way.

Tomorrow I'll try to combine everyone's comments into a summary and post in this thread, just so that everything is a bit more tidy.

That first map wasn't really intended for any particular scenario, I just wanted something with buildings, fields, and a road, but nothing too complicated. I'll try something similar for my next effort.

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Also, it looks kinda weird to place crops right next to buildings.

Good catch; I was wondering about this--those crops are meant to be the little gardens that Russian keep to grow vegetables, etc. for themselves. Often they are right by dwellings to that people can tend them easier, etc.

I would think that in 1944 Belorussia people had gardens everywhere possible to supplement their meager wartime rations. Would a different tile work better? Or I saw a "garden" flavor item but didn't look at it closely.

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I personally prefer the setups like these:

RedThunderCompounds_zps3e053f80.jpg

You are pretty much restricted to crop types 1,3 and 5, since 2 and 4 are wheat and 6 is rape, which nobody has in his backgarden.

Since 1,3 and 5 are all either N/S or E/W they look weird for angled (like 45°) compounds like on the left, so I prefer little orchards for these or alternatively flavour objects.

I personally would pepper each and every little compound with a few (no more than ten I'd say) flavour objects, as they can really spice things up.

Note that only one building in this picture is a modular building, the second one from the right. The others are Independent buildings, two of them barn type buildings.

You can put alot of these little compounds right next to each other and get, I believe, a realistic approximation of what Northeastern European villages looked like in the 40's, at least in Byelorussia, for Poland and Ukraine, things looked probably a little bit different.

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Also note that details like those gardens will not be shown on 1:50000 scale maps like the one you used. A long row of black blocks on such a map I would interpret as a row of buildings, but not all right next to each other, but more like a row of compounds, each with one or two small buildings (probably rarely even two stories high) and the compound being about 3-5 editor tiles wide and 7-10 tiles deep.

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With fences, or lines of bushes/whatever, don't forget to add gates at the corners of fields and out onto the roads. Farmers do like to be able to move about their farms without constantly destroying fences :D

JonS, do you mean just a gap in the fence, or are there gates and if so where? I'm trying my hand on a map myself at the moment (and a scenario eventually), but I don't see any gates among the flavor objects or walls.

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Rokko, thanks. What trees do you use for orchards?

You got your basic answer on tree types. One of the choices for tree density has little lines on it that means they will line up with trees in other tiles and look like humans planted them. Whereas the other choice with one tree will put a single tree in a random place and thus create a sparse forest rather than an orchard.

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Tons of excellent advice I don't have much to add but I do disagree with a couple of things - hopefully in a constructive way :)

2. Use the light forest tile for EVERYTHING. I love this tile, it serves so many purposes. Use it under roads

OK I lied: I don't disagree entirely with this it is a very useful tile but I do not use it under roads because I find it tends to slow down vehicles. I forget if it slows them down when they are on the road but pathing done by the AI sometimes strays a bit off the road which always slows vehicles down. If they touch grass or weeds the slow down is not too bad but if they hit forest it can really slow them down, especially wheeled vehicles.

3. When doing big blocks of trees, don't use more then one tree per tile, and use multiple types of tree per block. The tree types don't have any variety within the same type, so forests with one tree type look AWFUL.

Again not really in totally disagreement but the number of trees per tile should not be fixed to one setting, instead it depends on what kind of forest you are creating. Some larger forests can be pretty dense. Heck small ones can be pretty dense especially in the middle. What I usually do is create the centre of the forested area using the highest density of trees but create some "clearings" too and move to lower density and shorter trees as I get towards the edge. Again depending on what you are trying to create - as @JonS said if the forest is small or not very dense then never using the highest density of tree is the right way to go. Also while many forests do have some tree variety many also have large areas that are the same variety too so don't be afraid to have a large patch that is the same tree type - vary the density and the ground cover some to make it more interesting. Having a few weed tiles with a lower density of tree added can make a nice looking clearing that is not too open.

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Also, it looks kinda weird to place crops right next to buildings.

To modify that a bit;

* don't extend massive, multi-hectare crop fields right up to buildings

* don't put crop fields right next to the door of any building

* do put tiny little 1 or 2 tile 'house garden' crop fields right next to buildings

* do but crop fields right next to buildings as long as it doesn't block the entry/exit

* break any of the above when you feel it makes coherent sense

edit: bonus tip

* combine the six crop tiles with the three bush types to get 24 different crop fields.

edit2: Throw in the two bare ploughed tiles and you have 32 different visual varieties.

edit3: ... plus the long grass and extra long grass as either fallow fields or combined with bushes as crops, and you're up to 40. And you can use the two yellow types in the same way, and ...

Edit4: Meanwhile in the real world Monty, my cat, just jumped up on the desk for a snuggle and stomped on the keyboard :mad: :D

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Rokko, thanks. What trees do you use for orchards?

I use A, C, or D. I usually drop out the occasional tree, replace the occasional tree with an orchard-ised bush, and put the occasional tree 'off grid' to reduce the robotic appearance of orchards.

You can also mix up the spacing to give visual (and some tactical) variety:

x . x . x . x . x

. x . x . x . x .

x . x . x . x . x

x . x . x . x . x

x . x . x . x . x

x . x . x . x . x

x . x . x . x . x

. . . . . . . . . . .

x . x . x . x . x

. . . . . . . . . . .

x . x . x . x . x

x . . x . . x . . x . . x

. x . . x . . x . . x . .

. . x . . x . . x . . x .

etc

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JonS, do you mean just a gap in the fence, or are there gates and if so where?

Just the gap. I invariably use the wooden gap to mark gates, regardless of what the actual fence is made of. There's also a dirt or red dirt tile underneath to mark it ... and because they tend to be areas of high traffic and so bare of grass anyway.

With careful way-point positioning it is possible to drive anything, up to and including tanks, through the gap without destroying the gate (or risking track damage :) )

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Another question: beneath the trees and bushes, you can select one, two or three trees/bushes. If I understood him correctly, SeinfeldRules suggests only using one tree per tile. What is the consensus about using the "three tree" option vs Lt Forest or Hvy Forest?

Also, from my very limited experience, using one bush leaves them very thin on the ground, should "three bushes" be the default?

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