7.5 cm KwK 42 how flat was the trajectory? (need help)

[Oddball_E8]

I'm in a discussion on another forum right now, and someone is claiming that the panthers trajectory was so flat that the gunner did not have to adjust aim when shooting at a tank up to 1800 meters.

He claims to be quoting this: had such a flat trajectory, that the gunner did not even had to change his elevation setting until he begann engaging enemy targets at ranges greater than 1,8 km....., Panther: Germany's Quest for Combat Dominance, pg 59

Is there any truth to this?

I know the panther shells had a muzzle velocity of almost 1000m/s so hitting a target 1.8km out would still take 1.8 seconds at least, which would give the projectile plenty of time to drop.

[JasonC]

No, that's nonsense. The flight time is 2 seconds (MV is 935 m/s with plain AP rather than APCR) so the shell is arcing through a 16 foot climb and a 16 foot fall when properly aimed at that distance. That is more than the height of a typical target.

The actual sight was graded for target distance in 100 meter increments; you can see a picture of what those increments look like in terms of the amount of adjustment to the point of aim about halfway down the following page -

http://www.oocities.org/desertfox1891/pzpanther/pzpanther-Charakteristics.html

The arc of circles to the upper right of the sight center are for the KwK firing HE or for the coaxial MG, both a little under 800 m/s. The ones on the lower left are for firing AP, the PzGr 39 entries, 935 m/s. So you can see visually how the fall of shot goes as a function of range, for the two different muzzle velocities.

By the way, the muzzle velocity of the 5.56 round from an M-16 (or AR-15), using the standard 55 grain bullet, is higher than the velocity of the Panther's main gun - the two are close. With a 62 grain, you are a little under the Panther firing AP, so really the two are comparable. You can challenge the person making the assertion to try to hit a target at 1.8 kilometers with an AR-15 without any adjustment for the range.

I hope this helps.

[Oddball_E8]

No, that's nonsense. The flight time is 2 seconds (MV is 935 m/s with plain AP rather than APCR) so the shell is arcing through a 16 foot climb and a 16 foot fall when properly aimed at that distance. That is more than the height of a typical target.

The actual sight was graded for target distance in 100 meter increments; you can see a picture of what those increments look like in terms of the amount of adjustment to the point of aim about halfway down the following page -

http://www.oocities.org/desertfox1891/pzpanther/pzpanther-Charakteristics.html

The arc of circles to the upper right of the sight center are for the KwK firing HE or for the coaxial MG, both a little under 800 m/s. The ones on the lower left are for firing AP, the PzGr 39 entries, 935 m/s. So you can see visually how the fall of shot goes as a function of range, for the two different muzzle velocities.

By the way, the muzzle velocity of the 5.56 round from an M-16 (or AR-15), using the standard 55 grain bullet, is higher than the velocity of the Panther's main gun - the two are close. With a 62 grain, you are a little under the Panther firing AP, so really the two are comparable. You can challenge the person making the assertion to try to hit a target at 1.8 kilometers with an AR-15 without any adjustment for the range.

I hope this helps.

Thanks!

I'm sure it'll help! <

EDIT: I really wish some of you guys got in on the discussions on the War Thunder Ground Forces forums... players there need alot of schooling... Most of them are dead sure the game is russian biased because T-34/85's can take out Tiger I's from a distance farther than 100 meters

And other idiotic stuff like that.

In simulation mode the game is actually relatively realistic.

[Amizaur]

The problem there (WT) is not that T-34/85 can kill a Tiger from more than 100m , but that almost ANY penetration of Tiger armor by T-34 shell ends with Tiger ammo exploding, when T-34/85 is able to withstand several penetrations by Tiger shells and still return fire .

I would be satisfied if this was equal, for example 50% hits end with vehicle knock-out for both tanks.

Data for Su-100 gun with 900m/s muzzle velocity (it's a bit lower than Panther shell, but on the other hand the shell is much heavier and should not slow down as quick as 75mm shell):

Muzzle velocity: 895m/s, velocity at 1800m: 627m/s, time of flight: 2,4s, trajectory height: 7,2m (at half distance).

Panther gun - muzzle velocity 925-935m/s, velocity at 1800m: 675m/s, time of flight (estimated) ~ 2,2s.

Seems that 75mm APBC shell has ballistic coefficient bit better than 100mm Russian AP (it retains speed better). The trajectory height would be a little lower for Panther shell than for Su-100 shell - not 7m but around 6m. Still more than tank height.

The range for 2,5m max trajectory height would be about 1200-1300m for Panther gun and 1150m for Su-100 gun.